I believe other people have asked before, but I feel a need to ask.
I have been toying with the idea of being able to use two edged weapons. However, I find it downright silly that giving up Two Handed Weapon training wasn't enough and even further... giving up 90 ranks of Multi Opponent on top of that still was not enough points to free up to learn 200 ranks of Edged Weapons and 200 points of Two Weapon Combat. Sorry for the rant, but am I the only person that sees a problem with this or is it really that we aren't supposed to be using two weapons as a paladin? Eventually I was able to find a way, but by losing 5 spell ranks, and basically all of the lore which I found just... sad.
I get it. We aren't truly warriors, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect being able to duel wield two OHE weapons at the same time is out of the question for a reasonable price since we shouldn't have to give up all that I have mentioned above just to achieve that.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
FALAN
GHOSTRAVER
Re: Costs
04/06/2017 02:56 PM CDT
It does sound excessive, but then again, the archetypal paladin for MOST people is holy defender behind a shield, or holy avenger, with a giant sword.
I love people who play against expectations, but I expect there to be a sacrifice to do so. I expect going from 200 THW to 200 Edged + 200 TWC would not be enough, but 90 ranks of MoC as well should be sufficient, much less spell ranks AND lores. That seems like a bridge too far. I'm a long way off, but one of my first goals post-cap is to be fully trained for Edged & THW.
I love people who play against expectations, but I expect there to be a sacrifice to do so. I expect going from 200 THW to 200 Edged + 200 TWC would not be enough, but 90 ranks of MoC as well should be sufficient, much less spell ranks AND lores. That seems like a bridge too far. I'm a long way off, but one of my first goals post-cap is to be fully trained for Edged & THW.
DRUMPEL
Re: Costs
04/06/2017 03:38 PM CDT
I don't know exactly what to expect from playing a paladin, mine is only at level 24, but he wields dual blunt weapons.
(at level 24), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 150 50
Armor Use..........................| 154 54
Combat Maneuvers...................| 105 25
Blunt Weapons......................| 150 50
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 58 12
Physical Fitness...................| 105 25
Magic Item Use.....................| 102 24
Harness Power......................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 90 20
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 25 5
Climbing...........................| 66 14
Swimming...........................| 25 5
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 13
He's got a couple of crystal holders and a bunch of crystals to use, so he's been working on his MIU so he can utilize the crystals and have longer spell durations. Otherwise I'd probably just not train in it and focus a bit more on spells and a fit in a few more ranks of MOC. I want his MOC to be at least 30 ranks for focused MOC, but ideally I'd like it to 55 (which probably won't happen until he's close to level 85 or so).
I haven't really had any issues aside from his spiritual TD being a tad low, but if I can find some light/deep blues he's pretty solid hunter overall when hunting like level or slightly over. His double flares with 1604 are fun to watch, especially when both weapons double flare in one attack.
Only thing I really need to do with him right now is get him out of his 6x brig and into something chain that's at least 4x, but I've been too lazy since I don't play him too often. I bring him out for a couple of hunts or bounties a week.
The way I see it, it's not a common skill training for TWC on a paladin, so the extra TPs you put into it, you'll have to sacrifice other things to make it all work.
-Drumpel
(at level 24), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 150 50
Armor Use..........................| 154 54
Combat Maneuvers...................| 105 25
Blunt Weapons......................| 150 50
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 58 12
Physical Fitness...................| 105 25
Magic Item Use.....................| 102 24
Harness Power......................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 90 20
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 25 5
Climbing...........................| 66 14
Swimming...........................| 25 5
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 13
He's got a couple of crystal holders and a bunch of crystals to use, so he's been working on his MIU so he can utilize the crystals and have longer spell durations. Otherwise I'd probably just not train in it and focus a bit more on spells and a fit in a few more ranks of MOC. I want his MOC to be at least 30 ranks for focused MOC, but ideally I'd like it to 55 (which probably won't happen until he's close to level 85 or so).
I haven't really had any issues aside from his spiritual TD being a tad low, but if I can find some light/deep blues he's pretty solid hunter overall when hunting like level or slightly over. His double flares with 1604 are fun to watch, especially when both weapons double flare in one attack.
Only thing I really need to do with him right now is get him out of his 6x brig and into something chain that's at least 4x, but I've been too lazy since I don't play him too often. I bring him out for a couple of hunts or bounties a week.
The way I see it, it's not a common skill training for TWC on a paladin, so the extra TPs you put into it, you'll have to sacrifice other things to make it all work.
-Drumpel
LEAFIARA
Re: Costs
04/06/2017 06:44 PM CDT
I've been 2x OHBs and 1x TWC with my paladin since the start. To me the main perk of extra TWC training isn't the small AS bump, because Crusade's damage weighting and extra flares make up that difference, but the extra chance to hit. I just don't worry about it, though, because even 1x TWC gives an 80% chance of a second strike and that's good enough to me. If I do feel the need to push TWC further, well... I still have last year's fixskill available, plus another one is coming up in May, and I'd probably only go up to 1.5x TWC by pushing her 2x PF down to 1.5x PF and using all the points I've been waiting on for now.
Anyway, here's where she stands at level 64:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 166 66
Armor Use..........................| 240 140
Combat Maneuvers...................| 167 67
Blunt Weapons......................| 232 132
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35
Physical Fitness...................| 232 132
Dodging............................| 166 66
Harness Power......................| 164 64
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 93 21
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 114 28
Survival...........................| 160 60
Perception.........................| 166 66
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 166 66
Trading............................| 58 12
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 30
Training Points: 87 Phy 122 Mnt
Anyway, here's where she stands at level 64:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 166 66
Armor Use..........................| 240 140
Combat Maneuvers...................| 167 67
Blunt Weapons......................| 232 132
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35
Physical Fitness...................| 232 132
Dodging............................| 166 66
Harness Power......................| 164 64
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 93 21
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 114 28
Survival...........................| 160 60
Perception.........................| 166 66
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 166 66
Trading............................| 58 12
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 30
Training Points: 87 Phy 122 Mnt
KANDOR
Re: Costs
04/06/2017 09:55 PM CDT
>I get it. We aren't truly warriors, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect being able to duel wield two OHE weapons at the same time is out of the question for a reasonable price since we shouldn't have to give up all that I have mentioned above just to achieve that.
The training costs for paladins didn't make sense to me when I first looked at them, but I was coming in with some bias. It seems to me that paladins and clerics here would be favored by different gods for different abilities: a paladin of Tonis, for example, might consider speed and stealth a virtue, where one of Koar might consider dishonorable. Some gods would lean more heavily toward martial prowess; others would be more powerful with magic. I doubt it's possible to modify training costs by deity here, but it's an interesting thought. Possibly, something like religion lore could provide different enhancive bonuses to paladins and clerics (maybe different tiers for all followers) based on which god you've converted to. Or it could be level-based. Then, some paladins could be great with dual weapons because their god prefers them. It'd take some work, though.
The training costs for paladins didn't make sense to me when I first looked at them, but I was coming in with some bias. It seems to me that paladins and clerics here would be favored by different gods for different abilities: a paladin of Tonis, for example, might consider speed and stealth a virtue, where one of Koar might consider dishonorable. Some gods would lean more heavily toward martial prowess; others would be more powerful with magic. I doubt it's possible to modify training costs by deity here, but it's an interesting thought. Possibly, something like religion lore could provide different enhancive bonuses to paladins and clerics (maybe different tiers for all followers) based on which god you've converted to. Or it could be level-based. Then, some paladins could be great with dual weapons because their god prefers them. It'd take some work, though.
FALAN
Re: Costs
04/07/2017 01:32 AM CDT
Falvicar (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 300 200
Combat Maneuvers...................| 300 200
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 300 200
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 190 90
Physical Fitness...................| 200 100
Dodging............................| 160 60
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 140 40
Perception.........................| 200 100
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40
First Aid..........................| 140 40
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 39
Training Points: 168 Phy 0 Mnt (364 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)
43 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2017.
Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.
Further information can be found in the FAQs.
For those of the curious mind. Yes... 39 on purpose since I can't bring myself to go the 40th since I never use it. Dodge.. meh.. the full plate and it's full glory of master damage padding makes up for it. Typically I only die when Kenstrom cheats or when bandits keep me in RT lockdown.
No, I won't (nor should have to) give up 2x in CMs to achieve the above and for argument sake... it'd be silly to go back to 1x CMs etc. The only way I achieved (but not did) the duel wielding of OHE was giving up a motherload.. if giving up CMs achieves it (which it's too late for me to do math atm) then it just makes the more strong on costs. I was actually trying to achieve duel wielding OHE and getting multi strike as a paladin but right now it's just simply not possible without giving up what I would consider the core skills needed to be a surviving paladin.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 300 200
Combat Maneuvers...................| 300 200
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 300 200
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 190 90
Physical Fitness...................| 200 100
Dodging............................| 160 60
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 140 40
Perception.........................| 200 100
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40
First Aid..........................| 140 40
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 39
Training Points: 168 Phy 0 Mnt (364 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)
43 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2017.
Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.
Further information can be found in the FAQs.
For those of the curious mind. Yes... 39 on purpose since I can't bring myself to go the 40th since I never use it. Dodge.. meh.. the full plate and it's full glory of master damage padding makes up for it. Typically I only die when Kenstrom cheats or when bandits keep me in RT lockdown.
No, I won't (nor should have to) give up 2x in CMs to achieve the above and for argument sake... it'd be silly to go back to 1x CMs etc. The only way I achieved (but not did) the duel wielding of OHE was giving up a motherload.. if giving up CMs achieves it (which it's too late for me to do math atm) then it just makes the more strong on costs. I was actually trying to achieve duel wielding OHE and getting multi strike as a paladin but right now it's just simply not possible without giving up what I would consider the core skills needed to be a surviving paladin.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
SVEN2010
Re: Costs
04/08/2017 09:07 AM CDT
Eventually the lack of minor spiritual spells is going to catch up with you
GHOSTRAVER
Re: Costs
04/09/2017 07:20 AM CDT
Not OP, but are the last four spells in MS circle really that vital? I hear a lot of people praise Wall of Force, but as a shield paladin, I find my DS tends to be pretty high as-is. I only get hit if I do something stupid. Which is sadly more common than I'd care to admit.
SVEN2010
Re: Costs
04/09/2017 10:03 AM CDT
120 matters. 125, 130, 135, 140 really don't. I agree on that front.
