Could a GM please share the multisong penalty formula? It's not on the wiki and I'm not sure it's ever been explicitly shared. Thanks.
Glimmin Goodhand
TARLEQUIN
DOUG
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/18/2018 07:21 PM CDT
Not explicit, but helpful:
"The increased cost for controlling multiple songs has been changed to a new formula that considers the number of songs sung, songs known, Discipline, and Logic statistics. "
from: https://gswiki.play.net/Bard_Base/saved_posts#Miscellaneous
Dated: 2002!
Doug
"The increased cost for controlling multiple songs has been changed to a new formula that considers the number of songs sung, songs known, Discipline, and Logic statistics. "
from: https://gswiki.play.net/Bard_Base/saved_posts#Miscellaneous
Dated: 2002!
Doug
LUXELLE
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/19/2018 01:00 AM CDT
SONG STATUS
Start keeping track of your info and that and .... you can tell us all! :)
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
Start keeping track of your info and that and .... you can tell us all! :)
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty (direct observation)
07/19/2018 09:02 AM CDT
That post sounds like it came out the Hot Summer Nights of changes in 2002. (The biggest of which, for Bards mana efficiency, was the change from a hard "six minute duration" cap on medley. I'm in the high-9/low-10 minute range, already...)
That was the summer that I decided to de-mothball my Bard, and start playing him more seriously. (Before my regular two-year sabbatical (which ran ~10 years from 2006-2016) when I didn't really log in a whole hell of a lot.)
.
I was an outlier, in that I only trained in Songs from the start. To include "level+2" single-training.
And of course, barring Fortitude/1003, it takes a while before a Bard even has any songs that are renewable, never mind having a medley large enough to even approach MSP.
Holding ends at medley renewal (like Rage, Depression, Disruption, and Unravel); VibChant & Purification & Lullabye are all single-shot. Luck & Valor finally get you to a renewable medley at 7th level, but then Banshee's Wail/1008 is back to single-shot.
So 9th level is the first chance you have to see MSP at all, when you add in the Sonic Shield, and with 11 Songs known (level+2, all Songs all the time) I was already offsetting a bunch (-5, MSP is reduced 1 / 2 Songs known, no rounding).
But once you get there, you get several in a row (9, 10, 11, 12) so you can quickly check larger medlies.
.
The first MSP that I saw was +2 penalty cost at 9th level.
10th level (12 known, so another -1) that became 1 penalty @ 4 songs, and +9 (yes, NINE) for the 5th song.
11th level was 0 @ 3, 1 @ 4, 10 @ 5 [so that +9 was not a fluke, and I checked multiple combinations], and +22 @ 6.
So that was the first "MSP step of +12" that I ever saw.
12th level (14 known, another -1) it was 0 @ 3, 0 # 4, 9 @ 5, 21 @ 6, and +33 @ 7.
By the time I was 15th level, I could sing an 8-song medley of Fortitude, Luck, Kai's, Shield, Valor, Peace, Weapon, & Armor, with a listed renewal cost of 29... and MSP of +43 == 72 mana per.
That was the summer that I decided to de-mothball my Bard, and start playing him more seriously. (Before my regular two-year sabbatical (which ran ~10 years from 2006-2016) when I didn't really log in a whole hell of a lot.)
.
I was an outlier, in that I only trained in Songs from the start. To include "level+2" single-training.
And of course, barring Fortitude/1003, it takes a while before a Bard even has any songs that are renewable, never mind having a medley large enough to even approach MSP.
Holding ends at medley renewal (like Rage, Depression, Disruption, and Unravel); VibChant & Purification & Lullabye are all single-shot. Luck & Valor finally get you to a renewable medley at 7th level, but then Banshee's Wail/1008 is back to single-shot.
So 9th level is the first chance you have to see MSP at all, when you add in the Sonic Shield, and with 11 Songs known (level+2, all Songs all the time) I was already offsetting a bunch (-5, MSP is reduced 1 / 2 Songs known, no rounding).
But once you get there, you get several in a row (9, 10, 11, 12) so you can quickly check larger medlies.
.
The first MSP that I saw was +2 penalty cost at 9th level.
10th level (12 known, so another -1) that became 1 penalty @ 4 songs, and +9 (yes, NINE) for the 5th song.
11th level was 0 @ 3, 1 @ 4, 10 @ 5 [so that +9 was not a fluke, and I checked multiple combinations], and +22 @ 6.
So that was the first "MSP step of +12" that I ever saw.
12th level (14 known, another -1) it was 0 @ 3, 0 # 4, 9 @ 5, 21 @ 6, and +33 @ 7.
By the time I was 15th level, I could sing an 8-song medley of Fortitude, Luck, Kai's, Shield, Valor, Peace, Weapon, & Armor, with a listed renewal cost of 29... and MSP of +43 == 72 mana per.
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty (anecdotal history)
07/19/2018 09:04 AM CDT
From the archives--this must have been sent to me by someone, because I do not record things in MS Word '.doc' format--as of 14-Jan-2003:
Elligon’s Multi-Song Penalties at 86
Songs Sung........Current....Old....New (Pre-Tweak)
5.................None........9...............0
6..................7.........16...............7
7.................19.........25..............22
8.................31.........36..............40
9.................43.........49..............61
10.................55.........64..............85
86-7:38 renewal cycle
87–7:39 renewal cycle
88-7:40 renewal cycle
89-7:40 or so
Same "bonuses" for 86-88 for elli
26 charisma bonus 23 logic bonus 1 discipline "bonus"
Multi-Song Penalties
Songs Sung...86 (39 songs)...87 (40 songs)...88 (41 songs)...89 (42 songs)
1-5..........None............None............None............None
6............7...............6...............6...............5
7............19..............18..............18..............17
8............31..............30..............30..............29
9............43..............42..............42..............41
10............55..............54..............54..............53
Flynx:
Currently Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 36 .... -7
Dexterity (DE): 70 .... 15
Discipline (DI): 92 .... 16
Logic (LO): 81 .... 15
Intelligence (IN): 62 .... 6
Strength (ST): 74 .... 12
Reflexes (RE): 58 .... 14
Charisma (CH): 47 .... 4
Wisdom (WI): 76 .... 13
Aura (AU): 86 .... 18
Level 9, 9 songs, 3:03 – 3:05 renewal cycle (old, 2:45)
1-4 songs, 0 multi-song penalty
Flut:
Level 8
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...2
Bard Circle.......7
Discipline (DI): 95 .... 32
Logic (LO): 57 .... 8
Charisma (CH): 55 .... -8
2:30 renewal (previously 2:40)
no multi-song penalty for up to 3 songs (all he can sing, for now).
Soulpieced:
DI: 92 ... 21
LO: 100 .. 25
CH: 100 .. 30
Songs known - 70
Level – 144
1-7 songs 0 mana
8 songs 8 mana
9 songs 20 mana
10 songs 32 mana
Galenblackbard Level 122
Dis 100 +20
Log 81 +15
Cha 100 +30
Songs known 73
Song....Mana cost...Total....Cost to Renew....total songs...mana penalty
1003......1...........1...........1...............1..............0
1006......2...........3...........3...............2..............0
1009......4...........7...........7...............3..............0
1010......3...........10..........10..............4..............0
1019......12..........22..........22..............5..............0
1035......15..........37..........37..............6..............0
1012......4...........41..........41..............7..............0
1014......5...........46..........55..............8..............9
1018......15..........61..........82..............9..............21
1011......4...........65..........98..............10.............33
More numbers for the crunchers:
Level: 56
Songs Known: 27
Half-Elf
DI: 100 +20
LO: 71 +10
CH: 83 +21
Renewal Time: 6m 20sec +/- 2 sec
Song . Base | Cumulat | Renew All | Penalty
1003 . 1 . . . . 1 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . 0
1006 . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . . . 3 . . . . . 0
1007 . 4 . . . . 7 . . . . . . 7 . . . . . 0
1009 . 4 . . . . 11. . . . . .11 . . . . . 0
1011 . 4 . . . . 15. . . . . .15 . . . . . 0
1012 . 4 . . . . 19. . . . . .28 . . . . . 9
1014 . 5 . . . . 24. . . . . .45 . . . . .21
1018 .15 . . . . 39. . . . . .72 . . . . .33
Nofret:
Singing 1003, 1006, 1007, 1010.
RENEW ALL at 4:47:09
Renewal at 4:51:19
New Renewal Time--4 minutes, 10 seconds.
Renewal Cost: 12 – multi-song penalty for 4 songs, 2 mana
Renewal Time, prior to song renewal change—4:15.
Constitution (CO): 100 .... 25
Dexterity (DE): 61 .... 5
Discipline (DI): 59 .... 4
Logic (LO): 60 .... 10
Intelligence (IN): 56 .... 8
Strength (ST): 87 .... 23
Reflexes (RE): 76 .... 13
Charisma (CH): 62 .... 6
Wisdom (WI): 58 .... 4
Aura (AU): 100 .... 25
12 songs, 12 elemental
Some before/after training data for you:
BEFORE TRAIN
Half-elf, Level 26, 12 songs known:
DI: 93/16
LO: 67/8
CH: 69/14
Renewal time: 4:32 (close as I can time it)
Renewal costs:
4 songs – 0 penalty
5 songs – 6 penalty
6 songs – 18 penalty
AFTER TRAIN (learned new song, stats unchanged)
Half-elf, Level 27, 13 songs known
Renewal time: 4:35 (close as I can time it)
Renewal costs:
4 songs – 0 penalty
5 songs – 5 penalty
6 songs - 17 penalty
Hope that helps!
--Baldorn
Name: Alaayne Arahas Race: Halfling Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Female ... Age: 57 .... Expr: 873328 .... Level: 27
Currently . . Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 67 . . . . . . 18
Dexterity (DE): 63 . . . . . . 21
Discipline (DI): 99 . . . . . . 19
Logic (LO): 66 . . . . . . 13
Intelligence (IN): 60 . . . . . . 15
Strength (ST): 96 . . . . . . 3
Reflexes (RE): 68 . . . . . . 19
Charisma (CH): 69 . . . . . . -6
Wisdom (WI): 93 . . . . . . 21
Aura (AU): 100. . . . . . 20
Spells: 1020 & 407
Old period: 120 + (27*5) = 120 + 135 = 255 secs = 4:15
New period: seems to be around 218 or 219 seconds (3:38 or 3:39.)
Base Renewal . .New . . . Old
Cost . Cost . Penalty . Penalty
1 songs .. 1 .... 1 ........ 0 ....... 0
2 songs .. 3 .... 3 ........ 0 ....... 0
3 songs .. 7 .... 7 ........ 0 ....... 1
4 songs ..11 ....11 ........ 0 ....... 4
5 songs ..14 ....14 ........ 0 ....... 9
6 songs ..18 ....29 ....... 11 ...... 16
7 songs ..23 ....46 ....... 23 ...... 25
8 songs ................... 35 ...... 36
9 songs ................... ...... 49
Kraniak here--
Lvl 59
DI 100 +25 bonus
LO 68 +9 bonus
Ch 100 +30 bonus
Songs known: 30
Singing.....Renewal Cost.....Multi-song Penalty
1003..............1..........................0...........
+1006.............3..........................0...........
+1009.............7..........................0...........
+1010.............10........................0..........
+1019.............22........................0..........
+1012.............32........................6..........
+1014.............49.......................18.........
+1018.............76.......................30........
+1011.............92........................42........
Kilthal
Level 52
Dis: 89/-1
Log: 68/9
Cha: 87/33
35 songs
Renewal cycle 6:50
Renewal Cost:
Songs..........Before....Now
5...............0.........0
6..............15........11
7..............23........23
8..............35........35
9..............47........47
Heartpierced
Know 67 spellsongs and 70 spells
Trainings 137
Race : Giant
Stat bonus:
DI: 86 (18)
LO: 77 (13)
CH: 100 (30)
1 songs new penalty ..0 was 0
2 songs new penalty ..0 was 0
3 songs new penalty ..0 was 1
4 songs new penalty ..0 was 4
5 songs new penalty ..0 was 9
6 songs new penalty ..0 was 16
7 songs new penalty ..1 was 25
8 songs new penalty .13 was 36
9 songs new penalty .25 was 49
Havent timed it precisely yet, but its between 8 and 9 minutes.
Name: Amergen Race: Human Profession: Bard
Gender: Male Age: 37 Expr: 349456 Level: 16
....................Currently.....Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO):.....60.............5
Dexterity (DE):........62.............6
Discipline (DI):.......92.............21
Logic (LO):............53.............6
Intelligence (IN):.....52.............6
Strength (ST):.........88.............24
Reflexes (RE):.........93.............21
Charisma (CH):.........64.............7
Wisdom (WI):...........63.............6
Aura (AU):.............100............25
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...1
Bard Circle.......16
Song...Base Renew....Cumulative Renew....Renew All....Penalty
1003......1................1................1...........0
1006......2................3................3...........0
1007......4................7................7...........0
1010......3................10...............10..........0
1009......4................14...............16..........2
1012......4................18...............32..........14
1011......4................22...............48..........26
Well, I am behind almost 2 months in posts, so if this has been figured out I apologize for the needless post. Someone was tracking data on this at one point and I have lost mine I was keeping about my bard. If anyone has the data for Amergen, you can add this to it. If I am not mistaken, @ 16th level I had a 3:30\3:31 duration with 16 songs known and the following stats I will post. Unless I was mistaken, I could hold 4 songs before the multisong penalty kicked in. I hope some still has that data, I hate I lost mine when I had an unexpected format from a virus that snuck in on me. I recently trained to 17th level and I had no stat increases of course. It seems my duration is 3:35\3:36 or around a 5 second increase. I also now have 17 songs.
Constitution (CO):...60......5
....Dexterity (DE):...62......6
....Discipline (DI):...92......21
.........Logic (LO):...53......6
.Intelligence (IN):...52......6
....Strength (ST):...88......24
.....Reflexes (RE):...93......21
....Charisma (CH):...64......7
......Wisdom (WI):...63......6
..........Aura (AU):...100....25
Song......renew cost......combined cost......cost when renewed......penalty
______________________________________
1003........1................1........................1...............0 1006........2................3........................3...............0 1007........4................7........................7...............0 1010........3................10......................10..............0 1012........4................14......................16..............2 1009........4................18......................32..............14 1014........5................23......................49..............26
Okay, I trained to 18th tonight. Again, as best as I can remember my renew time at 16th level was 3:30\3:31. As best as I can figure, it seems my 17th level renewal time was 3:35. Right now at 18th it seems to be 3:39. Also, I got my 18th spell song tonight and I am human. Stats now at 18th level....
stat..current @ 18th..raised @ 18th..Current bonus @ 18th..Raised @ 18th
CO.........61......................+1......................5.................
DE.........62................................................6.................
DI.........93.....................+1........................21...............
LO.........53................................................6.................
IN.........53......................+1.......................6.................
ST.........89......................+1......................24...............
RE.........94......................+1......................22...............+1
CH.........65......................+1......................7.................
WI.........63................................................6.................
AU.........100..............................................25................
renewals...
Songs...base renew cost...combined cost...renew cost...penalty @ 18th...penalty @ 17th
1003............1.........1................1......................0..................0
1007............4.........5................5......................0...................0
1010............3.........8................8......................0...................0
1006............2.....…...10..............10.....................0...................0
1009............4.........14..............15.....................1...................2
1014............5.........19..............32.....................13.................14
1012............4.........23..............48.....................25.................26
Icewhite's New Song cost and Duration
Level 36
Dark Elf
Dis 100 +15 Log 100 +25 Cha 70 +5
Songs known 20
Song...Mana cost...Total...Cost to Renew...total songs...Penalty(old)
1003.......1.........1...........1..............1.............0
1006.......2.........3...........3..............2.............0
1010.......3.........6...........6..............3.............0(1)
1019.......12........18..........18.............4.............0(4)
1009.......4.........22..........22.............5.............0(9)
1012.......4.........26..........37.............6.............11(16)
1014.......5.........31..........54.............7.............23(25)
Old renew time: 5 minutes flat New renew Time: 4 minutes 55 seconds
Silverphenix:
Level:...................30
Race:....................Human
Renew cycle:..........5:49
Songs known:.........20
MinE known:...........11 (if that matters?)
LOG/Bonus:............73/16
DIS/Bonus:............100/25
CHA/Bonus:............82/16
Songs(cumulative).....Renewal Cost.....Multi-song Penalty
1003.......................1......................0
1006.......................3......................0
1007.......................7......................0
1009.......................11.....................0
1010.......................14.....................0
1012.......................27.....................9
1014.......................44.....................21
1017.......................63.....................33
Lyricaen Level 50
Dis 90 +15
Log 53 + 1 (stares blankly)
Cha 100 +30
Songs known 35
Song....Mana cost...Total...Cost to Renew...total songs...Penalty.(old)
1003......1...........1..........1..............1...........0.....( 0)
1006......2...........3..........3..............2...........0.....( 0)
1009......4...........7..........7..............3...........0.....( 1)
1010......3..........10.........10..............4...........0.....( 4)
1019......12.........22.........22..............5...........0.....( 9)
1035......15.........37.........45..............6...........8.....(16)
1012......4..........41.........61..............7...........20....(25)
1014......5..........46.........78..............8...........32....(36)
1018......15.........61........105..............9...........44....(49)
1011......4..........65........121.............10...........56....(64)
And just for kicks, my renewal cycle is 6 mins, 25 seconds.
I am a 39 train elf, with 24 songs. My Discipline is 64 (-13), Logic is 78 (14), and Charisma is 61 (20). I can sing 4 songs with no penalty, 5 with 4 added for renew, and 6 with 16 added for renew. My renew time is at 5:36.
Hope this helps!
Snowstar
Ok, I finally dug out a timer, so here goes. Renewal time is 5:34 seconds, give or take a second or two. Level: 36 Charisma: 87/23 Discipline: 66/3 Logic: 75/12 Intelligence: 63/6 (can't remember if the third stat is logic or int., so I provided both) Race: Sylvankind Your spell lists: Minor Elemental...24 Bard Circle.......13
-Drinin
Stats at level 32 :
Brandain
Level - 32
Charisma - 74 / 27
Discipline - 90 / 0
Logic - 68 / 9
Songs known - 19
Renewal costs: I started with four songs - 1003, 1006, 1010, 1019. For each subsequent test, I added, in this order, 1009, 1012, 1014, 1017.
Number of Songs Renewal Cost Penalty
4 18 0
5 29 7
6 45 19
7 62 31
8 81 43
Renewal time : Five minutes, thirty-two seconds. (5:32)
After training:
Brandain
Level - 33
Charisma - 74 / 27
Discipline - 90 / 0
Logic - 68 / 9
Songs known – 20
.........Level.....DI.........LO.......CH....Songs...MnElem.
Alanus...26....100/+20....72/+11...69/+14...14......13...
Alanuss..26....44/-8......78/+14...72/+16...13......14...
Old renew time: 4:10 (250 seconds = 120 + 5*26)
Tested renew time(tried my best with windows clock):
...........Test1....Test2....Test3....
Alanus:.....4:37.....4:37.....4:36....
Alanuss:....4:45.....4:46.....4:46....
Song penalty (First num. for costs/penalty is Alanus, Second num. is Alanuss):
Songs sung|Cost without penalty|Actual Cost|Calculated penalty
....1......|.........01.........|.01.....01.|..00..........00..
....2......|.........03.........|.03.....03.|..00..........00..
....3......|.........07.........|.07.....07.|..00..........00..
....4......|.........11.........|.11.....12.|..00..........01..
....5......|.........14.........|.17.....24.|..03..........10..
....6......|.........18.........|.33.....40.|..15..........22..
....7......|.........22.........|.49.....na.|..27..........na..
My conclusions are that CH seems to effect Renew times more than LO and DI barely, if at all. On the otherhand, DI definantly plays an influence on spell penalties.
-Alanus' player
Hello all!
Thus far it appears that I am losing 1 mana of the multi-song penalty every two trainings. I can't differentiate whether it is due to the training or the learning of more song ranks, though. Can someone who is training in MnE help me out on this?
Also, my penalty seems to be based upon a step-up of 12 mana. Do others have a different one? Here's a table of mana penalties showing what I mean:
Level.....V.....W.....X.....Y.....Z
7 songs...2.....1.....1.....0.....0
8 songs...14....13....13....12....12
9 songs...26....25....25....24....24
10 songs..38....37....37....36....36
Quivalin
Oruk
0 penalty for songs 1-4, 3 mana penalty for 5 songs
Logic bonus 14
Charisma bonus 1
Discipline bonus 21
12 songs known
Level 17
Cycle duration approx 2 minutes +- a few seconds
Gahread’s bard:
More data for those looking at it:
Level 17
songs: 11
DI: 100(5)
LO: 72(11)
CH: 95(37)
renewal time: 5:10
Songs running - Penalty
1-5 - 0
6 - 9
7 - 21
8 - 33
9 - 45
LO: 64 +7
DI: 100 +20
Ok did my song renewal time...was 4 minutes 5 seconds, did it three times and the average was 6 minutes 10 seconds.
Elven Bard 25 trains
Logic (LO): 100 .... 25
Charisma (CH): 98 .... 39
Minemus
Ok, I only have 4 songs at 23 so I can't do costs, so I just ran 1003 and I had a 3:39 minute renewal. I would wager a 1 second variance in my timing. Below is all my stuff of importance.
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...2
Bard Circle.......4
Level: 23
(CO): 63 .... 16
(DE): 65 .... 22
(DI): 100 .... 20
(LO): 99 .... 29
(IN): 65 .... 17
(ST): 66 .... -12
(RE): 66 .... 18
(CH): 65 .... -8
(WI): 93 .... 21
(AU): 100 .... 20
Armor Use : 102 [24]
Shield Use : 102 [24]
Combat Maneuvers : 10 [2]
Edged Weapons : 105 [25]
Climbing : 10 [2]
Swimming : 5 [1]
Multi-Opponent Combat: 25 [5]
Disarm Traps : 148 [48]
Pick Locks : 148 [48]
Perception : 102 [24]
Physical Training : 102 [24]
First Aid : 148 [48]
Trading : 148 [48]
Picking Pockets : 102 [24]
Jinsem <<
Elligon’s Multi-Song Penalties at 86
Songs Sung........Current....Old....New (Pre-Tweak)
5.................None........9...............0
6..................7.........16...............7
7.................19.........25..............22
8.................31.........36..............40
9.................43.........49..............61
10.................55.........64..............85
86-7:38 renewal cycle
87–7:39 renewal cycle
88-7:40 renewal cycle
89-7:40 or so
Same "bonuses" for 86-88 for elli
26 charisma bonus 23 logic bonus 1 discipline "bonus"
Multi-Song Penalties
Songs Sung...86 (39 songs)...87 (40 songs)...88 (41 songs)...89 (42 songs)
1-5..........None............None............None............None
6............7...............6...............6...............5
7............19..............18..............18..............17
8............31..............30..............30..............29
9............43..............42..............42..............41
10............55..............54..............54..............53
Flynx:
Currently Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 36 .... -7
Dexterity (DE): 70 .... 15
Discipline (DI): 92 .... 16
Logic (LO): 81 .... 15
Intelligence (IN): 62 .... 6
Strength (ST): 74 .... 12
Reflexes (RE): 58 .... 14
Charisma (CH): 47 .... 4
Wisdom (WI): 76 .... 13
Aura (AU): 86 .... 18
Level 9, 9 songs, 3:03 – 3:05 renewal cycle (old, 2:45)
1-4 songs, 0 multi-song penalty
Flut:
Level 8
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...2
Bard Circle.......7
Discipline (DI): 95 .... 32
Logic (LO): 57 .... 8
Charisma (CH): 55 .... -8
2:30 renewal (previously 2:40)
no multi-song penalty for up to 3 songs (all he can sing, for now).
Soulpieced:
DI: 92 ... 21
LO: 100 .. 25
CH: 100 .. 30
Songs known - 70
Level – 144
1-7 songs 0 mana
8 songs 8 mana
9 songs 20 mana
10 songs 32 mana
Galenblackbard Level 122
Dis 100 +20
Log 81 +15
Cha 100 +30
Songs known 73
Song....Mana cost...Total....Cost to Renew....total songs...mana penalty
1003......1...........1...........1...............1..............0
1006......2...........3...........3...............2..............0
1009......4...........7...........7...............3..............0
1010......3...........10..........10..............4..............0
1019......12..........22..........22..............5..............0
1035......15..........37..........37..............6..............0
1012......4...........41..........41..............7..............0
1014......5...........46..........55..............8..............9
1018......15..........61..........82..............9..............21
1011......4...........65..........98..............10.............33
More numbers for the crunchers:
Level: 56
Songs Known: 27
Half-Elf
DI: 100 +20
LO: 71 +10
CH: 83 +21
Renewal Time: 6m 20sec +/- 2 sec
Song . Base | Cumulat | Renew All | Penalty
1003 . 1 . . . . 1 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . 0
1006 . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . . . 3 . . . . . 0
1007 . 4 . . . . 7 . . . . . . 7 . . . . . 0
1009 . 4 . . . . 11. . . . . .11 . . . . . 0
1011 . 4 . . . . 15. . . . . .15 . . . . . 0
1012 . 4 . . . . 19. . . . . .28 . . . . . 9
1014 . 5 . . . . 24. . . . . .45 . . . . .21
1018 .15 . . . . 39. . . . . .72 . . . . .33
Nofret:
Singing 1003, 1006, 1007, 1010.
RENEW ALL at 4:47:09
Renewal at 4:51:19
New Renewal Time--4 minutes, 10 seconds.
Renewal Cost: 12 – multi-song penalty for 4 songs, 2 mana
Renewal Time, prior to song renewal change—4:15.
Constitution (CO): 100 .... 25
Dexterity (DE): 61 .... 5
Discipline (DI): 59 .... 4
Logic (LO): 60 .... 10
Intelligence (IN): 56 .... 8
Strength (ST): 87 .... 23
Reflexes (RE): 76 .... 13
Charisma (CH): 62 .... 6
Wisdom (WI): 58 .... 4
Aura (AU): 100 .... 25
12 songs, 12 elemental
Some before/after training data for you:
BEFORE TRAIN
Half-elf, Level 26, 12 songs known:
DI: 93/16
LO: 67/8
CH: 69/14
Renewal time: 4:32 (close as I can time it)
Renewal costs:
4 songs – 0 penalty
5 songs – 6 penalty
6 songs – 18 penalty
AFTER TRAIN (learned new song, stats unchanged)
Half-elf, Level 27, 13 songs known
Renewal time: 4:35 (close as I can time it)
Renewal costs:
4 songs – 0 penalty
5 songs – 5 penalty
6 songs - 17 penalty
Hope that helps!
--Baldorn
Name: Alaayne Arahas Race: Halfling Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Female ... Age: 57 .... Expr: 873328 .... Level: 27
Currently . . Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 67 . . . . . . 18
Dexterity (DE): 63 . . . . . . 21
Discipline (DI): 99 . . . . . . 19
Logic (LO): 66 . . . . . . 13
Intelligence (IN): 60 . . . . . . 15
Strength (ST): 96 . . . . . . 3
Reflexes (RE): 68 . . . . . . 19
Charisma (CH): 69 . . . . . . -6
Wisdom (WI): 93 . . . . . . 21
Aura (AU): 100. . . . . . 20
Spells: 1020 & 407
Old period: 120 + (27*5) = 120 + 135 = 255 secs = 4:15
New period: seems to be around 218 or 219 seconds (3:38 or 3:39.)
Base Renewal . .New . . . Old
Cost . Cost . Penalty . Penalty
1 songs .. 1 .... 1 ........ 0 ....... 0
2 songs .. 3 .... 3 ........ 0 ....... 0
3 songs .. 7 .... 7 ........ 0 ....... 1
4 songs ..11 ....11 ........ 0 ....... 4
5 songs ..14 ....14 ........ 0 ....... 9
6 songs ..18 ....29 ....... 11 ...... 16
7 songs ..23 ....46 ....... 23 ...... 25
8 songs ................... 35 ...... 36
9 songs ................... ...... 49
Kraniak here--
Lvl 59
DI 100 +25 bonus
LO 68 +9 bonus
Ch 100 +30 bonus
Songs known: 30
Singing.....Renewal Cost.....Multi-song Penalty
1003..............1..........................0...........
+1006.............3..........................0...........
+1009.............7..........................0...........
+1010.............10........................0..........
+1019.............22........................0..........
+1012.............32........................6..........
+1014.............49.......................18.........
+1018.............76.......................30........
+1011.............92........................42........
Kilthal
Level 52
Dis: 89/-1
Log: 68/9
Cha: 87/33
35 songs
Renewal cycle 6:50
Renewal Cost:
Songs..........Before....Now
5...............0.........0
6..............15........11
7..............23........23
8..............35........35
9..............47........47
Heartpierced
Know 67 spellsongs and 70 spells
Trainings 137
Race : Giant
Stat bonus:
DI: 86 (18)
LO: 77 (13)
CH: 100 (30)
1 songs new penalty ..0 was 0
2 songs new penalty ..0 was 0
3 songs new penalty ..0 was 1
4 songs new penalty ..0 was 4
5 songs new penalty ..0 was 9
6 songs new penalty ..0 was 16
7 songs new penalty ..1 was 25
8 songs new penalty .13 was 36
9 songs new penalty .25 was 49
Havent timed it precisely yet, but its between 8 and 9 minutes.
Name: Amergen Race: Human Profession: Bard
Gender: Male Age: 37 Expr: 349456 Level: 16
....................Currently.....Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO):.....60.............5
Dexterity (DE):........62.............6
Discipline (DI):.......92.............21
Logic (LO):............53.............6
Intelligence (IN):.....52.............6
Strength (ST):.........88.............24
Reflexes (RE):.........93.............21
Charisma (CH):.........64.............7
Wisdom (WI):...........63.............6
Aura (AU):.............100............25
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...1
Bard Circle.......16
Song...Base Renew....Cumulative Renew....Renew All....Penalty
1003......1................1................1...........0
1006......2................3................3...........0
1007......4................7................7...........0
1010......3................10...............10..........0
1009......4................14...............16..........2
1012......4................18...............32..........14
1011......4................22...............48..........26
Well, I am behind almost 2 months in posts, so if this has been figured out I apologize for the needless post. Someone was tracking data on this at one point and I have lost mine I was keeping about my bard. If anyone has the data for Amergen, you can add this to it. If I am not mistaken, @ 16th level I had a 3:30\3:31 duration with 16 songs known and the following stats I will post. Unless I was mistaken, I could hold 4 songs before the multisong penalty kicked in. I hope some still has that data, I hate I lost mine when I had an unexpected format from a virus that snuck in on me. I recently trained to 17th level and I had no stat increases of course. It seems my duration is 3:35\3:36 or around a 5 second increase. I also now have 17 songs.
Constitution (CO):...60......5
....Dexterity (DE):...62......6
....Discipline (DI):...92......21
.........Logic (LO):...53......6
.Intelligence (IN):...52......6
....Strength (ST):...88......24
.....Reflexes (RE):...93......21
....Charisma (CH):...64......7
......Wisdom (WI):...63......6
..........Aura (AU):...100....25
Song......renew cost......combined cost......cost when renewed......penalty
______________________________________
1003........1................1........................1...............0 1006........2................3........................3...............0 1007........4................7........................7...............0 1010........3................10......................10..............0 1012........4................14......................16..............2 1009........4................18......................32..............14 1014........5................23......................49..............26
Okay, I trained to 18th tonight. Again, as best as I can remember my renew time at 16th level was 3:30\3:31. As best as I can figure, it seems my 17th level renewal time was 3:35. Right now at 18th it seems to be 3:39. Also, I got my 18th spell song tonight and I am human. Stats now at 18th level....
stat..current @ 18th..raised @ 18th..Current bonus @ 18th..Raised @ 18th
CO.........61......................+1......................5.................
DE.........62................................................6.................
DI.........93.....................+1........................21...............
LO.........53................................................6.................
IN.........53......................+1.......................6.................
ST.........89......................+1......................24...............
RE.........94......................+1......................22...............+1
CH.........65......................+1......................7.................
WI.........63................................................6.................
AU.........100..............................................25................
renewals...
Songs...base renew cost...combined cost...renew cost...penalty @ 18th...penalty @ 17th
1003............1.........1................1......................0..................0
1007............4.........5................5......................0...................0
1010............3.........8................8......................0...................0
1006............2.....…...10..............10.....................0...................0
1009............4.........14..............15.....................1...................2
1014............5.........19..............32.....................13.................14
1012............4.........23..............48.....................25.................26
Icewhite's New Song cost and Duration
Level 36
Dark Elf
Dis 100 +15 Log 100 +25 Cha 70 +5
Songs known 20
Song...Mana cost...Total...Cost to Renew...total songs...Penalty(old)
1003.......1.........1...........1..............1.............0
1006.......2.........3...........3..............2.............0
1010.......3.........6...........6..............3.............0(1)
1019.......12........18..........18.............4.............0(4)
1009.......4.........22..........22.............5.............0(9)
1012.......4.........26..........37.............6.............11(16)
1014.......5.........31..........54.............7.............23(25)
Old renew time: 5 minutes flat New renew Time: 4 minutes 55 seconds
Silverphenix:
Level:...................30
Race:....................Human
Renew cycle:..........5:49
Songs known:.........20
MinE known:...........11 (if that matters?)
LOG/Bonus:............73/16
DIS/Bonus:............100/25
CHA/Bonus:............82/16
Songs(cumulative).....Renewal Cost.....Multi-song Penalty
1003.......................1......................0
1006.......................3......................0
1007.......................7......................0
1009.......................11.....................0
1010.......................14.....................0
1012.......................27.....................9
1014.......................44.....................21
1017.......................63.....................33
Lyricaen Level 50
Dis 90 +15
Log 53 + 1 (stares blankly)
Cha 100 +30
Songs known 35
Song....Mana cost...Total...Cost to Renew...total songs...Penalty.(old)
1003......1...........1..........1..............1...........0.....( 0)
1006......2...........3..........3..............2...........0.....( 0)
1009......4...........7..........7..............3...........0.....( 1)
1010......3..........10.........10..............4...........0.....( 4)
1019......12.........22.........22..............5...........0.....( 9)
1035......15.........37.........45..............6...........8.....(16)
1012......4..........41.........61..............7...........20....(25)
1014......5..........46.........78..............8...........32....(36)
1018......15.........61........105..............9...........44....(49)
1011......4..........65........121.............10...........56....(64)
And just for kicks, my renewal cycle is 6 mins, 25 seconds.
I am a 39 train elf, with 24 songs. My Discipline is 64 (-13), Logic is 78 (14), and Charisma is 61 (20). I can sing 4 songs with no penalty, 5 with 4 added for renew, and 6 with 16 added for renew. My renew time is at 5:36.
Hope this helps!
Snowstar
Ok, I finally dug out a timer, so here goes. Renewal time is 5:34 seconds, give or take a second or two. Level: 36 Charisma: 87/23 Discipline: 66/3 Logic: 75/12 Intelligence: 63/6 (can't remember if the third stat is logic or int., so I provided both) Race: Sylvankind Your spell lists: Minor Elemental...24 Bard Circle.......13
-Drinin
Stats at level 32 :
Brandain
Level - 32
Charisma - 74 / 27
Discipline - 90 / 0
Logic - 68 / 9
Songs known - 19
Renewal costs: I started with four songs - 1003, 1006, 1010, 1019. For each subsequent test, I added, in this order, 1009, 1012, 1014, 1017.
Number of Songs Renewal Cost Penalty
4 18 0
5 29 7
6 45 19
7 62 31
8 81 43
Renewal time : Five minutes, thirty-two seconds. (5:32)
After training:
Brandain
Level - 33
Charisma - 74 / 27
Discipline - 90 / 0
Logic - 68 / 9
Songs known – 20
.........Level.....DI.........LO.......CH....Songs...MnElem.
Alanus...26....100/+20....72/+11...69/+14...14......13...
Alanuss..26....44/-8......78/+14...72/+16...13......14...
Old renew time: 4:10 (250 seconds = 120 + 5*26)
Tested renew time(tried my best with windows clock):
...........Test1....Test2....Test3....
Alanus:.....4:37.....4:37.....4:36....
Alanuss:....4:45.....4:46.....4:46....
Song penalty (First num. for costs/penalty is Alanus, Second num. is Alanuss):
Songs sung|Cost without penalty|Actual Cost|Calculated penalty
....1......|.........01.........|.01.....01.|..00..........00..
....2......|.........03.........|.03.....03.|..00..........00..
....3......|.........07.........|.07.....07.|..00..........00..
....4......|.........11.........|.11.....12.|..00..........01..
....5......|.........14.........|.17.....24.|..03..........10..
....6......|.........18.........|.33.....40.|..15..........22..
....7......|.........22.........|.49.....na.|..27..........na..
My conclusions are that CH seems to effect Renew times more than LO and DI barely, if at all. On the otherhand, DI definantly plays an influence on spell penalties.
-Alanus' player
Hello all!
Thus far it appears that I am losing 1 mana of the multi-song penalty every two trainings. I can't differentiate whether it is due to the training or the learning of more song ranks, though. Can someone who is training in MnE help me out on this?
Also, my penalty seems to be based upon a step-up of 12 mana. Do others have a different one? Here's a table of mana penalties showing what I mean:
Level.....V.....W.....X.....Y.....Z
7 songs...2.....1.....1.....0.....0
8 songs...14....13....13....12....12
9 songs...26....25....25....24....24
10 songs..38....37....37....36....36
Quivalin
Oruk
0 penalty for songs 1-4, 3 mana penalty for 5 songs
Logic bonus 14
Charisma bonus 1
Discipline bonus 21
12 songs known
Level 17
Cycle duration approx 2 minutes +- a few seconds
Gahread’s bard:
More data for those looking at it:
Level 17
songs: 11
DI: 100(5)
LO: 72(11)
CH: 95(37)
renewal time: 5:10
Songs running - Penalty
1-5 - 0
6 - 9
7 - 21
8 - 33
9 - 45
LO: 64 +7
DI: 100 +20
Ok did my song renewal time...was 4 minutes 5 seconds, did it three times and the average was 6 minutes 10 seconds.
Elven Bard 25 trains
Logic (LO): 100 .... 25
Charisma (CH): 98 .... 39
Minemus
Ok, I only have 4 songs at 23 so I can't do costs, so I just ran 1003 and I had a 3:39 minute renewal. I would wager a 1 second variance in my timing. Below is all my stuff of importance.
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...2
Bard Circle.......4
Level: 23
(CO): 63 .... 16
(DE): 65 .... 22
(DI): 100 .... 20
(LO): 99 .... 29
(IN): 65 .... 17
(ST): 66 .... -12
(RE): 66 .... 18
(CH): 65 .... -8
(WI): 93 .... 21
(AU): 100 .... 20
Armor Use : 102 [24]
Shield Use : 102 [24]
Combat Maneuvers : 10 [2]
Edged Weapons : 105 [25]
Climbing : 10 [2]
Swimming : 5 [1]
Multi-Opponent Combat: 25 [5]
Disarm Traps : 148 [48]
Pick Locks : 148 [48]
Perception : 102 [24]
Physical Training : 102 [24]
First Aid : 148 [48]
Trading : 148 [48]
Picking Pockets : 102 [24]
Jinsem <<
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/19/2018 09:09 AM CDT
"SONG STATUS
Start keeping track of your info and that and .... you can tell us all! :)" -- Luxelle
And see also my previous request about re-formatting 'song status' so that it provides, well... more useful info.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/449
.
Or more generically, Krakii's Big Long Laundry List Of How To Make Bards More Better:
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/546
Start keeping track of your info and that and .... you can tell us all! :)" -- Luxelle
And see also my previous request about re-formatting 'song status' so that it provides, well... more useful info.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/449
.
Or more generically, Krakii's Big Long Laundry List Of How To Make Bards More Better:
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/546
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty (mana analysis)
07/19/2018 01:05 PM CDT
"Name: Amergen Race: Human Profession: Bard
Gender: Male Age: 37 Expr: 349456 Level: 16
....................Currently.....Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO):.....60.............5
Dexterity (DE):........62.............6
Discipline (DI):.......92.............21
Logic (LO):............53.............6
Intelligence (IN):.....52.............6
Strength (ST):.........88.............24
Reflexes (RE):.........93.............21
Charisma (CH):.........64.............7
Wisdom (WI):...........63.............6
Aura (AU):.............100............25
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...1
Bard Circle.......16
Song...Base Renew....Cumulative Renew....Renew All....Penalty
1003......1................1................1...........0
1006......2................3................3...........0
1007......4................7................7...........0
1010......3................10...............10..........0
1009......4................14...............16..........2
1012......4................18...............32..........14
1011......4................22...............48..........26
Well, I am behind almost 2 months in posts, so if this has been figured out I apologize for the needless post. Someone was tracking data on this at one point and I have lost mine I was keeping about my bard. If anyone has the data for Amergen, you can add this to it. If I am not mistaken, @ 16th level I had a 3:30\3:31 duration with 16 songs known" -- excerpted from previous info
I thought that name looked familiar.
Amergen and I were roughly the same(-ish) level as each other for a large swath of time, a dozen levels or more, so he was one of the ones that I compared my own performance to pretty frequently.
.
Knowing what we know now about the renewal/medley duration, we can say that it was probably:
120 base
064 (16 levels @ 4s)
021 (7 CHArisma stat bonus @ 3s)
006 (6 LOGic stat bonus @ 1s)
000 (Lore did not exist)
---
211 seconds, or 3:31, or 17 renewals per hour
.
Compared and contrasted to mine at the same level: DIScipline of 96 [+3], LOGic of 75 [+12], CHArisma of 95 [+37], for medley of:
120 base
064 (16 levels @ 4s)
111 (37 CHArisma stat bonus @ 3s)
012 (12 LOGic stat bonus @ 1s)
000 (Lore did not exist)
---
307 seconds, or 5:07, or 11 and three quarter renewals per hour
.
Using his medley of Fortitude, Luck, Kai's (Eonak's used to be the 19th level spell), Valor, Shield, Weapon, and Peace == 7 Songs total of 22 + 26 MSP, for one hour, he would pay 816 mana.
One level earlier (@ 15th), I could sing one song more (8 in the medley, those 7 + Armor), eat the greater MSP (not just +4 renewal cost of the song but +12 extra MSP per renewal)... and pay 846. (29 base cost + 43 MSP == 72 per renewal x 11.75 renewals in the hour)
Yes, he had a whacking great DIScipline bonus (92 stat/+21 bonus) to help offset MSP... but he was paying it so often that the longer duration afforded by my CHArisma just completely overwhelmed what benefit that gave him.
[Note for "Medley Math" Remember that there is not an exact match on what the renewal costs used to be vs. what they are now. Valor used to be a fixed amount, Kai's used to be a fixed amount, and Eonak's used to be another spell buff entirely @ 19th level. Our numbers as described were accurate under those old rules.]
.
.
Also, at 17 renewals to the hour vs. 11, he had more than half again as many chances (>+50%) to have Sonic Equipment fall off while renewing when stunned/unable.
All of this math led to me preaching from Krakii's Giant Book of Stats, chapter & verse on "Thou Shalt Set Thy CHArisma [now, INFluence] HIGH rather than tanking it as so many advocate."
Gender: Male Age: 37 Expr: 349456 Level: 16
....................Currently.....Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO):.....60.............5
Dexterity (DE):........62.............6
Discipline (DI):.......92.............21
Logic (LO):............53.............6
Intelligence (IN):.....52.............6
Strength (ST):.........88.............24
Reflexes (RE):.........93.............21
Charisma (CH):.........64.............7
Wisdom (WI):...........63.............6
Aura (AU):.............100............25
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...1
Bard Circle.......16
Song...Base Renew....Cumulative Renew....Renew All....Penalty
1003......1................1................1...........0
1006......2................3................3...........0
1007......4................7................7...........0
1010......3................10...............10..........0
1009......4................14...............16..........2
1012......4................18...............32..........14
1011......4................22...............48..........26
Well, I am behind almost 2 months in posts, so if this has been figured out I apologize for the needless post. Someone was tracking data on this at one point and I have lost mine I was keeping about my bard. If anyone has the data for Amergen, you can add this to it. If I am not mistaken, @ 16th level I had a 3:30\3:31 duration with 16 songs known" -- excerpted from previous info
I thought that name looked familiar.
Amergen and I were roughly the same(-ish) level as each other for a large swath of time, a dozen levels or more, so he was one of the ones that I compared my own performance to pretty frequently.
.
Knowing what we know now about the renewal/medley duration, we can say that it was probably:
120 base
064 (16 levels @ 4s)
021 (7 CHArisma stat bonus @ 3s)
006 (6 LOGic stat bonus @ 1s)
000 (Lore did not exist)
---
211 seconds, or 3:31, or 17 renewals per hour
.
Compared and contrasted to mine at the same level: DIScipline of 96 [+3], LOGic of 75 [+12], CHArisma of 95 [+37], for medley of:
120 base
064 (16 levels @ 4s)
111 (37 CHArisma stat bonus @ 3s)
012 (12 LOGic stat bonus @ 1s)
000 (Lore did not exist)
---
307 seconds, or 5:07, or 11 and three quarter renewals per hour
.
Using his medley of Fortitude, Luck, Kai's (Eonak's used to be the 19th level spell), Valor, Shield, Weapon, and Peace == 7 Songs total of 22 + 26 MSP, for one hour, he would pay 816 mana.
One level earlier (@ 15th), I could sing one song more (8 in the medley, those 7 + Armor), eat the greater MSP (not just +4 renewal cost of the song but +12 extra MSP per renewal)... and pay 846. (29 base cost + 43 MSP == 72 per renewal x 11.75 renewals in the hour)
Yes, he had a whacking great DIScipline bonus (92 stat/+21 bonus) to help offset MSP... but he was paying it so often that the longer duration afforded by my CHArisma just completely overwhelmed what benefit that gave him.
[Note for "Medley Math" Remember that there is not an exact match on what the renewal costs used to be vs. what they are now. Valor used to be a fixed amount, Kai's used to be a fixed amount, and Eonak's used to be another spell buff entirely @ 19th level. Our numbers as described were accurate under those old rules.]
.
.
Also, at 17 renewals to the hour vs. 11, he had more than half again as many chances (>+50%) to have Sonic Equipment fall off while renewing when stunned/unable.
All of this math led to me preaching from Krakii's Giant Book of Stats, chapter & verse on "Thou Shalt Set Thy CHArisma [now, INFluence] HIGH rather than tanking it as so many advocate."
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/20/2018 08:48 AM CDT
Doing a direct comparison with Amergen:
- at 16th level I had DIScipline bonus of +3, and 5 songs gave +7. [18 songs known]
- at the same level he had +21 bonus, and 5 songs gave +2. [16 songs known]
Since my two more Songs known would have reduced my MSP by one, that's a delta of 6 MSP, for 18 stat bonus.
<insert KrakiiMath©™>
Sounds like about 3 stat bonus per 1 MSP being offset.
.
First three Songs sung are free. (No MSP.)
There is <some amount of MSP which is NOT TWELVE> for the 4th Song (+2 seen @ 9th level [11 Songs known == -5, 96 DIS @ +3 == -1]), which seems like it could be 8 (straight math) or 9 (<something rounded, somewhere>).
5th Song observed at +9 MSP beyond that.
6th and later Songs at +12 apiece.
.
.
I still feel that Sonic Shield, Sonic Weapon, and Sonic Armor should themselves also be 'free' (not generate MSP, but only their base renewal cost) in the medley, since, you know: basic adventuring equipment....
- at 16th level I had DIScipline bonus of +3, and 5 songs gave +7. [18 songs known]
- at the same level he had +21 bonus, and 5 songs gave +2. [16 songs known]
Since my two more Songs known would have reduced my MSP by one, that's a delta of 6 MSP, for 18 stat bonus.
<insert KrakiiMath©™>
Sounds like about 3 stat bonus per 1 MSP being offset.
.
First three Songs sung are free. (No MSP.)
There is <some amount of MSP which is NOT TWELVE> for the 4th Song (+2 seen @ 9th level [11 Songs known == -5, 96 DIS @ +3 == -1]), which seems like it could be 8 (straight math) or 9 (<something rounded, somewhere>).
5th Song observed at +9 MSP beyond that.
6th and later Songs at +12 apiece.
.
.
I still feel that Sonic Shield, Sonic Weapon, and Sonic Armor should themselves also be 'free' (not generate MSP, but only their base renewal cost) in the medley, since, you know: basic adventuring equipment....
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/20/2018 10:49 AM CDT
Oh, and see also my posts #435 & 445 over in "Bard Magic, Spells, and SpellSongs":
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/435
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/445
.
Where I arrived at fundamentally the same thing, three years ago already.
(At that time I was saying that rounding did work, where previously [and now] I have been saying that it does not... feel free to narrow that down if you like. :)
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/435
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/445
.
Where I arrived at fundamentally the same thing, three years ago already.
(At that time I was saying that rounding did work, where previously [and now] I have been saying that it does not... feel free to narrow that down if you like. :)
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/23/2018 04:38 PM CDT
I took the opportunity over the weekend to look back at some of the documents, and I think this's a fairly comfortable starting spot:
- first three (3) Songs, no MSP possible;
- next two (2) Songs [#s 4 & 5 in the medley], +9 MSP apiece;
- all subsequent Songs, +12 MSP apiece;
- each THREE (3) points of DIScipline stat bonus == -1 MSP;
- each TWO (2) ranks of Songs trained == -1 MSP.
.
For purposes of testing, I recommend using the Songs that do not have scalar costs, so:
- 1, Fortitude
- 4, Shield
- 4, Peace
- 4, Weapon
- 5, Armor
- 15, Power
- 15, Dancing Weapon
- 7, Noise
(I included that last one because it is fixed, so makes it possible to determine current MSP. I do not recommend actually having that medley in use... :)
I found that I needed to have Peace running, shift to a room with a creature to target, and then bang off Noise before the Peace effect caught up to me.
.
Looks like my 88th level version on the Test server is at DIScipline 98 (+9), 65 Songs (== -32), +3 @ 7 and +15 @ 8.
By stats & skill (Songs), I should be offsetting 35 MSP, net.
If all Songs above 3 were +12, that should be +60 - 35 == +25.
If the 4th one were only +6, 5th +9 (as I had observed), and all subsequent were +12, that would be +51 -35 == +16, and I saw +15.
Live game, 92nd level, all the way up to DIScipline of 99 (+9), 71 Songs (== -35), +0 @ 7 and +12 @ 8.
By stats & skill (Songs), I should be offsetting 38 MSP. (Trained more Songs with the Shield Use fixskill.)
If all Songs above 3 were +12, that should be +60 - 35 == +25.
If we assume 4 == 6, 5 == 9, >=6 == 12, that would still be +51 - 38 == +13, and I saw +12.
.
So maybe the Fourth Song in the medley is only +5?
- first three (3) Songs, no MSP possible;
- next two (2) Songs [#s 4 & 5 in the medley], +9 MSP apiece;
- all subsequent Songs, +12 MSP apiece;
- each THREE (3) points of DIScipline stat bonus == -1 MSP;
- each TWO (2) ranks of Songs trained == -1 MSP.
.
For purposes of testing, I recommend using the Songs that do not have scalar costs, so:
- 1, Fortitude
- 4, Shield
- 4, Peace
- 4, Weapon
- 5, Armor
- 15, Power
- 15, Dancing Weapon
- 7, Noise
(I included that last one because it is fixed, so makes it possible to determine current MSP. I do not recommend actually having that medley in use... :)
I found that I needed to have Peace running, shift to a room with a creature to target, and then bang off Noise before the Peace effect caught up to me.
.
Looks like my 88th level version on the Test server is at DIScipline 98 (+9), 65 Songs (== -32), +3 @ 7 and +15 @ 8.
By stats & skill (Songs), I should be offsetting 35 MSP, net.
If all Songs above 3 were +12, that should be +60 - 35 == +25.
If the 4th one were only +6, 5th +9 (as I had observed), and all subsequent were +12, that would be +51 -35 == +16, and I saw +15.
Live game, 92nd level, all the way up to DIScipline of 99 (+9), 71 Songs (== -35), +0 @ 7 and +12 @ 8.
By stats & skill (Songs), I should be offsetting 38 MSP. (Trained more Songs with the Shield Use fixskill.)
If all Songs above 3 were +12, that should be +60 - 35 == +25.
If we assume 4 == 6, 5 == 9, >=6 == 12, that would still be +51 - 38 == +13, and I saw +12.
.
So maybe the Fourth Song in the medley is only +5?
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/24/2018 06:12 AM CDT
That 92nd level math should say "+60 - 38 == +22", not read like the copy/paste that it was. <cough>
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/24/2018 08:23 AM CDT
And of course, that one point variance could be because rounding actually does work. (Which is why all of my training regimens end with odd numbers of spell ranks in each circle.)
I'm about 2/3 of the way to getting another rank of Spell Research, so I can do a mid-level train and see if the MSP does not change. (Which would indicate rounding.)
I'll get back to you in a week....
I'm about 2/3 of the way to getting another rank of Spell Research, so I can do a mid-level train and see if the MSP does not change. (Which would indicate rounding.)
I'll get back to you in a week....
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/25/2018 01:13 PM CDT
Thank you for sharing this (Other :P) Robert!
My bard is still youngish and presently not even being actively played but I have wondered about the MultiSong Penalty from time to time. At present keeping three songs up is a bit of a mana challenge though.
-- Robert
Due to the volatile atmosphere, random bolts of lightning can intermittently be seen streaking through the skyline.
My bard is still youngish and presently not even being actively played but I have wondered about the MultiSong Penalty from time to time. At present keeping three songs up is a bit of a mana challenge though.
-- Robert
Due to the volatile atmosphere, random bolts of lightning can intermittently be seen streaking through the skyline.
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/25/2018 02:20 PM CDT
"At present keeping three songs up is a bit of a mana challenge though." -- (Other)Robert
Needless to say, as you go up in levels it gets a lot better.
(100 + 75 + 50 + 25 == +250s == 4:10 added to your duration just from making trainings.)
However, do not discount the preachings of the Book of Krakii!
Note in the comparison that my extra duration from stat bonus (+111s) was very nearly equal to the base amount (120s) that Amergen was starting from.
(And, since I had that same base amount to start, and we were the same level, he was adding "+27s" and I was adding "+123s"...)
.
You're under 20th, so: free stat moves (for a while).
Free skill moves. (You could literally train up to double in ML:Telepathy to begin your hunt [longer duration], then drop to only single to reclaim enough points to shift into weapon [keeping singled ML:T for the AS bonus from Kai's].)
Take the "free and easy" solution, and "incant fortitude\r stop fortitude\r", and take a point out of your medley. (I do this to this day...)
Needless to say, as you go up in levels it gets a lot better.
(100 + 75 + 50 + 25 == +250s == 4:10 added to your duration just from making trainings.)
However, do not discount the preachings of the Book of Krakii!
Note in the comparison that my extra duration from stat bonus (+111s) was very nearly equal to the base amount (120s) that Amergen was starting from.
(And, since I had that same base amount to start, and we were the same level, he was adding "+27s" and I was adding "+123s"...)
.
You're under 20th, so: free stat moves (for a while).
Free skill moves. (You could literally train up to double in ML:Telepathy to begin your hunt [longer duration], then drop to only single to reclaim enough points to shift into weapon [keeping singled ML:T for the AS bonus from Kai's].)
Take the "free and easy" solution, and "incant fortitude\r stop fortitude\r", and take a point out of your medley. (I do this to this day...)
CANDIDE
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/25/2018 03:22 PM CDT
"(You could literally train up to double in ML:Telepathy to begin your hunt [longer duration]-Krakii"
If you mean double ranks to level then no because bards can only single in Lores. Life would be much easier if we could though.
GBB
If you mean double ranks to level then no because bards can only single in Lores. Life would be much easier if we could though.
GBB
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/25/2018 03:30 PM CDT
Derp.
Yeah, except for that minor detail of not being able to do it at all... it'd be a great idea. <nod>
<facepalm>
Yeah, except for that minor detail of not being able to do it at all... it'd be a great idea. <nod>
<facepalm>
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/27/2018 10:33 AM CDT
Confirmed that MSP reduction happens on the even numbered Song from Spell Research.
Fortitude Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Peace
Sonic Weapon Song
Sonic Armor
Song of Noise
Song of Power
Singing Sword Song
Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 67 mana.
It was 48 with all the weapons & Peace; finding a creature to 'target' so that I could add Noise @ +7 brought the renewal up to 67. So 48 +7 == 55 with +12 for the new Song.
Trained new song:
Bard...............................| 72
Same medley of 7 songs at 48, +7 from adding in Noise, renewal now 66.
MSP has dropped to only eleven (+11).
So:
- Sonic Equipment (shield, weapon, armor) gain their bonus on the ODD ranks (rounding works);
- Unravel increases its pushdown on the ODD ranks (rounding works, so 19 Songs == -10 TD);
- MSP reduces on the EVEN ranks (rounding does NOT work).
Fortitude Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Peace
Sonic Weapon Song
Sonic Armor
Song of Noise
Song of Power
Singing Sword Song
Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 67 mana.
It was 48 with all the weapons & Peace; finding a creature to 'target' so that I could add Noise @ +7 brought the renewal up to 67. So 48 +7 == 55 with +12 for the new Song.
Trained new song:
Bard...............................| 72
Same medley of 7 songs at 48, +7 from adding in Noise, renewal now 66.
MSP has dropped to only eleven (+11).
So:
- Sonic Equipment (shield, weapon, armor) gain their bonus on the ODD ranks (rounding works);
- Unravel increases its pushdown on the ODD ranks (rounding works, so 19 Songs == -10 TD);
- MSP reduces on the EVEN ranks (rounding does NOT work).
LUXELLE
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/28/2018 12:40 PM CDT
When does the final mana reduction happen? Or as long as we keep training in bard songs, does it keep reducing?
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
KRAKII
Re: MultiSong Penalty
07/28/2018 01:08 PM CDT
For testing, I was only using the fixed-(renewal)-cost Songs. Plenty of room yet to add in Kai's, Valor, and Mirrors. (And any others I've forgotten.)
So that would be the potential of +36 more MSP over the 11 that I'm at now, with 72 Songs known.
Adding +94 more Songs, I could completely eliminate that MSP, with 166 known...
...if I didn't already know 39 Minor. (Total 215, of 202 allowed.)
Picking up a stack of DIScipline Enhancives may offset a bunch, too.
So that would be the potential of +36 more MSP over the 11 that I'm at now, with 72 Songs known.
Adding +94 more Songs, I could completely eliminate that MSP, with 166 known...
...if I didn't already know 39 Minor. (Total 215, of 202 allowed.)
Picking up a stack of DIScipline Enhancives may offset a bunch, too.
