Cross-posted in Magic Spells/Systems --> Developer's Corner - Spell Systems

This is an issue I've noticed with my bards regarding multi-cast and the new MANA verb features. It may apply to certain other classes, as well.

There seems to be a problem with Mana Control ranks as they relate to multi-cast for bards. 30 ranks of Mental Mana Control (MMC) is not enough to obtain 2 multi-casts.

Bards may utilize both Mental Mana Control and Elemental Mana Control. The training costs are equal. Some of their basic bardic abilities, however--specifically Song of Unraveling--depend upon MMC, not EMC. Many bards train exclusively in MMC. But for some reason, it appears that Elemental Mana Control is considered a bard's "primary" control, while MMC is counting for only half.

I have verified this recently. Previously, both of my bards had 30 ranks of MMC with zero EMC. Neither one could utilize multi-casting; they were limited to 1 cast only. When I began training my elder bard in EMC, I noticed she could cast 2 multi-casts after training in only 10 ranks of EMC. This confirms that MMC is counting for only half (30/2 + 10 = 25).

It was my understanding that with classes that use two Mana Controls equally, whichever was trained higher was considered "prime" for purposes of determining what MANA features were available. For instance, my Sorcerer, who is equally trained in both Spiritual and Elemental mana controls, has not suffered this problem.

My ranger, on the other hand, has access to 2 multi-casts with only 25 ranks of Spiritual Mana Control.

It seems this may have been a minor oversight. We'd really appreciate it if you took a look at this and made any necessary adjustments.

Thank you! :)

Heathyr and friends

<<<Basically, in order to multi-cast a spell you need to have Mana Control ranks for the mana of the Realm being cast. Elemental spell? MC:Elemental ranks needed.>>>

Thanks Krakii. I read and responded to that on the other thread, as well, but let me mirror my thoughts here. While I understand the intent, it seems like bards are getting left out in the cold regarding multi-cast. Multi-cast can't be used with bardsongs, and we don't have access to the Minor Mental spell circle. So our only use for multi-cast is our Minor Elemental spells, which can be a real time saver.

You bring up a fair point, however, in that the ranks are fairly inexpensive. And I admit I'd forgotten how it was set up to work, with EMC applying to Elemental spells, SMC to Spiritual, etc. Still, it seems a bit of a handicap for most bards, considering it's a fairly benign convenience, and not a game-changing power.

Oh well. Was worth bringing up, in any case.

~ Heathyr and friends

Seems like another perfectly reasonable training decision needs to be made. (And I think it was you yourself who said in the other thread that none of the BardSongs even benefit from the multi-cast capability (given that they work off of medley duration anyhow).)

Want to cast single-duration spells multiple times? Train in the Minor Elemental list and MC:Elemental.

Want to have continuing-duration spells that behave differently anyhow? Train in the Bard list and MC:Mental.

.

I really can't speak strongly on this topic, given that my Bard actually does have ranks in both Mana Controls (as part of his 6.5 magical ranks/level to use his Sonic Runestaff), but honestly I seldom run into a situation where I need to multi-cast the Minor Elemental spells anyway.

While I'm not necessarily in favor of changing this, as I think it makes sense as it stands, no class in the game falls quite into the realm that bards do.

Sorcerers and Empaths are hybrids like them; however, Empaths never made the Minor Mental switch, and so don't have to worry about it. Sorcerers DO have this issue, but because 1xing both controls is standard training for Sorcerers, its not common enough to seriously impact most sorcerers.

Only Bards have a spell circle for which the mana control for multicast is not usually a part of their training regimen, whether it be through mechanical benefits (or lack thereof) or simply the popular training path.

Do what I do and use ;waggle2 on LICH. I'm not impressed with the lack of development for bards. It's essentially nothing and it's been nothing for what? Two, four years? Have we gotten anything since sorcerers got 750? Since then they've gotten 708 and new curses...beats me what else, and they're usually the ones saying they lack development.

Did bards get anything out of the MANA or Multi-spell verb release? Can we at least pulse our mana early? I really don't know. I think my point is clear, though. Bard development is dead and even professions that are "done" shouldn't see nothing for as long as we have. At least squares got access to some of the new cmans released with monks.

~Galenok

Okay 708 isn't balefire I guess. Is that 713? Also, I meant whatever spell let's you travel around with the chalk. That's not 750? Okay, 740 or whatever.

Regardless, and I apologize for using the wrong spell numbers, it doesn't alter my point. My point was, sorcs got balefire, new curses, something new with nightmare and their travel spell since the last thing I believe bards got worked on. I sort of knew using sorcs as a point of reference might be a bad move. My using the wrong spell numbers shows about how much I follow sorcerers.

~Galenok

Sorry...I forgot to touch on the spell active window. I wouldn't call it huge past a certain threshold. It's most useful in your 30's and 40's when you know enough spellsongs but don't have enough mana to run all of them. Once you hit your 50's mana isn't nearly the same issue and barring being a pure bard, your renewal isn't going to crush you until you start trying to hunt with 1035 a lot. I'd say it was huge for about 20 levels worth of barding and nice for the rest. It was nice for everyone, though...so thank you dev GMs for spell active window. I did already thank them for that and for the mana and multi verb releases as they do help some of my other characters.

~Galenok

Good to learn that. Thanks. Mana spellup is the neatest to me of the abilities. I can see how a pure might just need that quick burst of mana more than a semi.

~Galenok

>I thought that, too. But because it can only be used once in a 24-hour period,

I had this problem too . . . until I unlocked the second cast the other day!

Its also hilarious fun to double spam it in TSC and see people's reactions. Or if they try to lifekeep you.

______________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

Keep in mind that he is talking about a sorcerer character, and it took 100 ranks of each mana control. Personally while I think mana spell up is neat, I am not going to train any more controls then I already am just to reach it sooner with any of my characters.