Previous
I believe one or more of three things has to happen with the new documentation and how it affects roleplay events:
1. New Ta'Faendryl needs to open and some sort of training school mechanics need to be developed. It's really impossible to say that hiring a Palestra is available "to everyone" if all of them are in an imaginary town and never leave and only show up every 5 years or so unless someone has claimed an NPC name (from what I understand, there are people claiming names when they see it in documentation and playing the characters as the historical figures). I guarantee that NTF would be more populated than Zul Logoth.
2. Faendryl title available at cap: Palestra
3. Just grant Durakar a Palestra title. He has certainly worked for it and earned it. Until a few months ago, every other player recognized Durakar as a Palestra. It's honestly sad to see him continuously put down by the NPCs.
VANKRASN39
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 01:28 PM CDT
I have gone over both the new and old documentation, as well as finding historical population densities and medieval estimates. Below are my findings, please peruse them. Skip to Conclusions at the bottom if you want the short version.
>From official documentation:
"The more stable political climates and strong leadership allowed the magical community (which encompassed eighty percent of Faendryl society in various forms) to flourish and grow." - The Growth of Faendryl Magic
"While there had always been a small population of warriors in the mostly magical people, these lithe fighters and their skills came into high demand. The energies used to bring creatures from there to here were far from perfected, and either the casting or what it brought often left the caster reeling, easy prey for the target of their summons. The blademasters, unaffected by the energies about them, proved to be lifesavers, and magicians invested large amounts of funding for the services of such protectors." - The Growth of Faendryl Magic
"To cater to this need, Ondreian Shamsiel Faendryl, Patriarch XVII, ordered the Palestra founded and staffed with the finest warriors and instructors his people had to offer." - The Palestra and the Faendryl Warrior
"As each round of graduates finished their instruction, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra for a small fee." - The Palestra and the Faendryl Warrior
"In private service, Palestra are hired by sorcerers with an expertise in summoning or in any sorcery that might endanger the community. By law, all sorcerers engaged in such activities must contract with a Palestra." - The Theory of Governance and Social Order
>Assumptions:
Graduating percentage = ~0.8% (From Palestra at Symposium, 4 out of 500 became Palestra)
Great Academy class size = ~500 students (from Palestra at Symposium)
Lesser Academy class size = ~125 students (extrapolated to average 1 graduate per class)
Length of time between classes = ~10 years (actual time per person varies, would assume this is between contests)
50% of graduating Palestra enter private service
Age of mature Faendryl = 324
Age of old Faendryl = 912
80% of Faendryl society is part of the magical community
All non-magical Faendryl enter the academies and no magical do
90 people per sq mile, assuming German/Italy style landscape & amount of arable land
>Calculations:
Students per class, all academies = 2000
Palestra graduating per class, all academies = ~16
Total students over 500 year period = 100,000 (over 4x the estimated population of London in 1377)
Total Palestra graduating over 500 year period = ~800
Estimated population size during this 500 year period = 500,000 (1.4x the estimated population of London in 1662)
Total number of Faendryl possibly seeking Palestran services = 400,000
Maximum number of sorcerers/wizards able to hire a Palestra for private service = 400, 0.1% of the magical population
>Conclusions:
The majority of the Faendryl magical community is unable to obtain the services of Palestra, which is directly in conflict with the reason they were created in the first place.
The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
Keeping all other factors the same, a graduation rate of 80% would need to be maintained just to meet the demand for filling 10% of the society. With this rate the amount entering private service would likely spike causing a greater fill percentage.
In order to support a country of this estimated size (500,000 people) New Ta'Faendryl would be about the size of Connecticut (5,500 sq miles).
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
>From official documentation:
"The more stable political climates and strong leadership allowed the magical community (which encompassed eighty percent of Faendryl society in various forms) to flourish and grow." - The Growth of Faendryl Magic
"While there had always been a small population of warriors in the mostly magical people, these lithe fighters and their skills came into high demand. The energies used to bring creatures from there to here were far from perfected, and either the casting or what it brought often left the caster reeling, easy prey for the target of their summons. The blademasters, unaffected by the energies about them, proved to be lifesavers, and magicians invested large amounts of funding for the services of such protectors." - The Growth of Faendryl Magic
"To cater to this need, Ondreian Shamsiel Faendryl, Patriarch XVII, ordered the Palestra founded and staffed with the finest warriors and instructors his people had to offer." - The Palestra and the Faendryl Warrior
"As each round of graduates finished their instruction, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra for a small fee." - The Palestra and the Faendryl Warrior
"In private service, Palestra are hired by sorcerers with an expertise in summoning or in any sorcery that might endanger the community. By law, all sorcerers engaged in such activities must contract with a Palestra." - The Theory of Governance and Social Order
>Assumptions:
Graduating percentage = ~0.8% (From Palestra at Symposium, 4 out of 500 became Palestra)
Great Academy class size = ~500 students (from Palestra at Symposium)
Lesser Academy class size = ~125 students (extrapolated to average 1 graduate per class)
Length of time between classes = ~10 years (actual time per person varies, would assume this is between contests)
50% of graduating Palestra enter private service
Age of mature Faendryl = 324
Age of old Faendryl = 912
80% of Faendryl society is part of the magical community
All non-magical Faendryl enter the academies and no magical do
90 people per sq mile, assuming German/Italy style landscape & amount of arable land
>Calculations:
Students per class, all academies = 2000
Palestra graduating per class, all academies = ~16
Total students over 500 year period = 100,000 (over 4x the estimated population of London in 1377)
Total Palestra graduating over 500 year period = ~800
Estimated population size during this 500 year period = 500,000 (1.4x the estimated population of London in 1662)
Total number of Faendryl possibly seeking Palestran services = 400,000
Maximum number of sorcerers/wizards able to hire a Palestra for private service = 400, 0.1% of the magical population
>Conclusions:
The majority of the Faendryl magical community is unable to obtain the services of Palestra, which is directly in conflict with the reason they were created in the first place.
The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
Keeping all other factors the same, a graduation rate of 80% would need to be maintained just to meet the demand for filling 10% of the society. With this rate the amount entering private service would likely spike causing a greater fill percentage.
In order to support a country of this estimated size (500,000 people) New Ta'Faendryl would be about the size of Connecticut (5,500 sq miles).
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:00 PM CDT
If New Ta'Faendryl opened, I would be positively giddy.
There's definitely a logical disconnect between "anyone can hire a Palestra" and "only three or four Palestra have ever been seen outside of New Ta'Faendryl in a couple of real-time decades because not many make it through the rigorous training." How to reconcile the fact that they're vanishingly rare (outside the city, at least) yet available to all? Is acquiring a Palestra guard so prohibitively expensive that Ardwen would blanch? Are they available in theory but scarce in practice -- sort of how anyone can buy a Rolls-Royce, but if you want one, you'll pay a ton and wait a while as each one is custom-built?
As it stands right now, the Palestra are talked about both as commonly encountered as hedge knights but as carefully trained and chosen as the Kingsguard of Westeros (I feel profoundly geeky for having written that sentence). I hope we'll be able to come to some consensus on which end of the spectrum they are as we talk more about it. I'd be fine with assuming they're pretty rare and/or expensive to retain.
>Until a few months ago, every other player recognized Durakar as a Palestra. It's honestly sad to see him continuously put down by the NPCs.
It's uncomfortable for me to watch, and I'm not even a player of a Palestra character. Until the recent documentation release, only two typical Faendryl were described: a sorcerer and a Palestra guard. If you weren't a pure, and you wanted to have a lore-certified role for your Faendryl character, you might well have gravitated to the other only extant possibility. Sorcerers have it easy; our fingerprints are everywhere on official lore. It's also pretty easy for someone whose character came from humble beginnings in Ta'Turnipfarm to retro-fit that and declare his or her family members of the Agrestis.
Now that it's an issue for PC Palestra to exist, how does a player who has made it a central fact of his character cope, though? Is there some area of compromise here, such as a character who was formerly active as a Palestra guard or who is undergoing training and is spending a few years abroad as part of that? Other GM-conferred honorifics and titles given to some PCs have come from years of consistent RP, storyline events, and special feats; is there something a character who has made being a Palestra guard the core of his character could do to make that title happen? This kind of goes back to that lengthy discussion a couple of months ago on advancement.
On the flip side, I do see why GMs want to maintain control of certain roles. We have mayors, magisters, and knights among the player base, but we don't have earls, Mirrors, queens, Patiarchs or Matriarchs because those roles are far outside the scope of what player characters can do. We don't have them for the same reason we don't have vampires or unicorns or fairies: It's manifestly obvious that our player characters lack certain powers, and this isn't a freeform roleplaying game. The problem is that Palestra are alternately described as both tremendously powerful and relatively common -- the whole hedge knight/Kingsguard thing I described earlier -- so you have the issue of people wanting to play these very plausible, archetypal Faendryl guards versus GMs wanting to maintain control of these highly trained, uncommonly skilled elite warriors.
Maybe through discussion, we can come to some workable solution for this issue.
There's definitely a logical disconnect between "anyone can hire a Palestra" and "only three or four Palestra have ever been seen outside of New Ta'Faendryl in a couple of real-time decades because not many make it through the rigorous training." How to reconcile the fact that they're vanishingly rare (outside the city, at least) yet available to all? Is acquiring a Palestra guard so prohibitively expensive that Ardwen would blanch? Are they available in theory but scarce in practice -- sort of how anyone can buy a Rolls-Royce, but if you want one, you'll pay a ton and wait a while as each one is custom-built?
As it stands right now, the Palestra are talked about both as commonly encountered as hedge knights but as carefully trained and chosen as the Kingsguard of Westeros (I feel profoundly geeky for having written that sentence). I hope we'll be able to come to some consensus on which end of the spectrum they are as we talk more about it. I'd be fine with assuming they're pretty rare and/or expensive to retain.
>Until a few months ago, every other player recognized Durakar as a Palestra. It's honestly sad to see him continuously put down by the NPCs.
It's uncomfortable for me to watch, and I'm not even a player of a Palestra character. Until the recent documentation release, only two typical Faendryl were described: a sorcerer and a Palestra guard. If you weren't a pure, and you wanted to have a lore-certified role for your Faendryl character, you might well have gravitated to the other only extant possibility. Sorcerers have it easy; our fingerprints are everywhere on official lore. It's also pretty easy for someone whose character came from humble beginnings in Ta'Turnipfarm to retro-fit that and declare his or her family members of the Agrestis.
Now that it's an issue for PC Palestra to exist, how does a player who has made it a central fact of his character cope, though? Is there some area of compromise here, such as a character who was formerly active as a Palestra guard or who is undergoing training and is spending a few years abroad as part of that? Other GM-conferred honorifics and titles given to some PCs have come from years of consistent RP, storyline events, and special feats; is there something a character who has made being a Palestra guard the core of his character could do to make that title happen? This kind of goes back to that lengthy discussion a couple of months ago on advancement.
On the flip side, I do see why GMs want to maintain control of certain roles. We have mayors, magisters, and knights among the player base, but we don't have earls, Mirrors, queens, Patiarchs or Matriarchs because those roles are far outside the scope of what player characters can do. We don't have them for the same reason we don't have vampires or unicorns or fairies: It's manifestly obvious that our player characters lack certain powers, and this isn't a freeform roleplaying game. The problem is that Palestra are alternately described as both tremendously powerful and relatively common -- the whole hedge knight/Kingsguard thing I described earlier -- so you have the issue of people wanting to play these very plausible, archetypal Faendryl guards versus GMs wanting to maintain control of these highly trained, uncommonly skilled elite warriors.
Maybe through discussion, we can come to some workable solution for this issue.
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:17 PM CDT
>The problem is that Palestra are alternately described as both tremendously powerful and relatively common -- the whole hedge knight/Kingsguard thing I described earlier -- so you have the issue of people wanting to play these very plausible, archetypal Faendryl guards versus GMs wanting to maintain control of these highly trained, uncommonly skilled elite warriors.
My thought on it has always been one of degrees within the Palestra. This can be seen with the new documentation mentioning the contests and the rankings that come out of it. An easy way to allow players to continue with their established RP, as I am not the only one to have created a Palestran character, would be to create the ranks within this and allow the lowest levels of such to be granted to PCs.
My initial idea is for Palestran Guard to be the lowest rank, thereby containing the largest number of active Palestra and being the name that the group is most recognized as. From here there can be more ranks, both public and secret.
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
My thought on it has always been one of degrees within the Palestra. This can be seen with the new documentation mentioning the contests and the rankings that come out of it. An easy way to allow players to continue with their established RP, as I am not the only one to have created a Palestran character, would be to create the ranks within this and allow the lowest levels of such to be granted to PCs.
My initial idea is for Palestran Guard to be the lowest rank, thereby containing the largest number of active Palestra and being the name that the group is most recognized as. From here there can be more ranks, both public and secret.
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:25 PM CDT
>The majority of the Faendryl magical community is unable to obtain the services of Palestra, which is directly in conflict with the reason they were created in the first place.
>The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
It does seem that way. We need some retro-fitting either to make Palestra less elite or to make it clear that only a few would be able to engage their services -- which would in turn change their purpose somewhat. Maybe there's a guardian organization that's less prestigious than the Palestra for the hoi polloi? Maybe not everyone needs a guard after all? Maybe one Palestra can work for a whole family rather than a single individual?
>In order to support a country of this estimated size (500,000 people) New Ta'Faendryl would be about the size of Connecticut (5,500 sq miles).
I had no idea Connecticut was so bite-sized. We could have ten of them in Louisiana (but only one or two of them would fit in the fun part; sorry, other eight Connecticuts, you'd get Bossier City instead of New Orleans).
>The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
It does seem that way. We need some retro-fitting either to make Palestra less elite or to make it clear that only a few would be able to engage their services -- which would in turn change their purpose somewhat. Maybe there's a guardian organization that's less prestigious than the Palestra for the hoi polloi? Maybe not everyone needs a guard after all? Maybe one Palestra can work for a whole family rather than a single individual?
>In order to support a country of this estimated size (500,000 people) New Ta'Faendryl would be about the size of Connecticut (5,500 sq miles).
I had no idea Connecticut was so bite-sized. We could have ten of them in Louisiana (but only one or two of them would fit in the fun part; sorry, other eight Connecticuts, you'd get Bossier City instead of New Orleans).
SCRAPPERK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:28 PM CDT
Unfortunate as it sounds, it seems that the compromise here is in character development. The hard line seems to be that no one can play a Palestra. If we consider recent developments in the Human Empire's Hall of Mages, what we have in a true Palestra is a Hall Level Mage.
The Palestra is capable of beyond our characters ability in measure of skill. The Palestra is a fighting fool. He is Drangell, Thadston and Walkar combined. Mechanically he generates an AS of 3000, and a standing DS of 2500.
Where we can possibly fit in our character development and feasibly come across a Palestra school dropout, or some other tragic/dramatic event in the life of a Palestra wannabe, we are trapped within the confines that we cannot become one. Perhaps we need to seek alternatives. As devout a member of Faendryl society that the Palestra must be, then the leaving of service would be an affront to the Patriarch. One he would not very likely let slide for any measure of time and one that would cause severe trauma to the Palestra in question. Faendryl society is pretty cut and dry from my observation. It is done a particular way, or you face ostracism or worse. Perhaps the NPC position in this particular situation can be easily explained through role play. The character in question left his service for whatever reason, and to the Faendryl, by order of the Patriarch, they simply cease to exist. Any who come across these travelers are bound to disregard them and perpetuate the idealogy that being a Palestra carries much more honor and responsibility.
Like being an Navy Seal, you don't run around to the bars telling the ladies this is what you do for a living. A true Palestra, to the Faendryl, would never make any such claim. I am not knocking the RP, because I myself have contemplated rolling up one myself, got a back story and everything laid out for the guy, but without the proper role playing climate he can't be played believably... just yet.
It remains a sticky situation, but I do believe a compromise can be found, which does not destroy the work that went into creating these personas, but provides a logical reason why the Faendryl Society would not acknowledge the existence of any outside of their sphere of direct influence. A Palestra in the wilds would be a very dangerous enemy to many, if he or she chose to make herself one.
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:36 PM CDT
There is a relatively simple fix on this one. I say simple, but I imagine getting the OK from above would make it far more complex from a GM perspective.
But Durakar is having a meeting Saturday in illistim for all those interested in Palestra or RP palestra and such. I believe he's going to give a demonstration on kata as well, which he did, officially, as RPing a member of the Palestra, during the dark elven weekend the Mentors put on a while back.
You bring your NPC palestra, you watch, you snidely comment that, while he might not be someone from shamsiel or such, you can tell the man's been trained properly at one of the lesser known schools, you then begrudgingly acknowledge that he is a Palestra or at least completed training.
Then you can either proclaim him a Palestra.. you can give him one of the lesser rankings or something, if it's that important he not be considered the best of the best
Or you have him send back home a letter requesting someone provide proof of his status, which he then posts here, and then you can have a more official officiant type provide him with the documentation and maybe a symbol of status that got left back at the academy or at home or something. Something equivalent of spurs, but for Palestra. I believe the Palestra last night mentioned rituals and itemry to designate themselves as Palestra.
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:38 PM CDT
>>Unfortunate as it sounds, it seems that the compromise here is in character development. The hard line seems to be that no one can play a Palestra. If we consider recent developments in the Human Empire's Hall of Mages, what we have in a true Palestra is a Hall Level Mage.
Isn't Raelee a hall level mage? a Magister? I'd rather equate the Palestra with imperial knights.
VANKRASN39
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 02:41 PM CDT
>The Palestra is capable of beyond our characters ability in measure of skill. The Palestra is a fighting fool. He is Drangell, Thadston and Walkar combined. Mechanically he generates an AS of 3000, and a standing DS of 2500.
I don't agree, there are too many of them. If we put it in Kingkiller Chronicles terms, you are comparing the Palestra to the Amyr, a highly secretive order of knights and former arm of the church. I think the Palestra are more like the Adem, or highly skilled mercenaries for hire.
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 07:48 PM CDT
In some other discussion that I was having another area of the main Faendryl document was brought up.
"Mharcuis Virajith Faendryl is, like most common Faendryl, a sorcerer. He has three names, denoting given name, family line, and the fact that he is Faendryl. All Faendryl have three names for ease of determining heritage and differences in those with the same given name (after all, there is a Mharcuis Roahnn Faendryl two boroughs over). No dark elf wants to be without his proper surname.
As with most sorcerers and summoners, Mharcuis goes nowhere without his escort, Nacterre Wilderic Faendryl. Nacterre was trained at the Palestra, where Mharcuis was able to employ his services (for what Mharcuis considers an exorbitant rate). As much as Nacterre's services cost, however, it has been worth it, as twice the warrior has saved Mharcuis' life. Some of the better-to-do sorcerers have several escorts, but Mharcuis can afford only the one." - The Typical Faendryl
The information here goes against some of what was said at the Symposium, that being that Palestra do not use their surname any longer. It would appear that they do and that no dark elf would want to be without his/her proper surname.
Additionally, as this is regarding a Typical Faendryl, it is mentioned that most sorcerers and summoners go nowhere without their escort and that escort is then shown to be a Palestra. There is also the mention of some sorcerers having more than one. Both of these would lead most readers to an understanding that there are near equal number of Palestra for sorcerers and summoners.
This main document, which has been listed on the site for many years now and has been the basis of many character's RP should be followed and allow PC Palestra as their sheer number to fall in line with this documentation would preclude them from being as elite as it has been purported recently.
Does this preclude elite factions within the Palestra? Not at all. So that gives both PCs a wheelhouse to RP within while still allowing NPCs to be bigger, badder, stronger, higher ranked, etc...
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
"Mharcuis Virajith Faendryl is, like most common Faendryl, a sorcerer. He has three names, denoting given name, family line, and the fact that he is Faendryl. All Faendryl have three names for ease of determining heritage and differences in those with the same given name (after all, there is a Mharcuis Roahnn Faendryl two boroughs over). No dark elf wants to be without his proper surname.
As with most sorcerers and summoners, Mharcuis goes nowhere without his escort, Nacterre Wilderic Faendryl. Nacterre was trained at the Palestra, where Mharcuis was able to employ his services (for what Mharcuis considers an exorbitant rate). As much as Nacterre's services cost, however, it has been worth it, as twice the warrior has saved Mharcuis' life. Some of the better-to-do sorcerers have several escorts, but Mharcuis can afford only the one." - The Typical Faendryl
The information here goes against some of what was said at the Symposium, that being that Palestra do not use their surname any longer. It would appear that they do and that no dark elf would want to be without his/her proper surname.
Additionally, as this is regarding a Typical Faendryl, it is mentioned that most sorcerers and summoners go nowhere without their escort and that escort is then shown to be a Palestra. There is also the mention of some sorcerers having more than one. Both of these would lead most readers to an understanding that there are near equal number of Palestra for sorcerers and summoners.
This main document, which has been listed on the site for many years now and has been the basis of many character's RP should be followed and allow PC Palestra as their sheer number to fall in line with this documentation would preclude them from being as elite as it has been purported recently.
Does this preclude elite factions within the Palestra? Not at all. So that gives both PCs a wheelhouse to RP within while still allowing NPCs to be bigger, badder, stronger, higher ranked, etc...
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
LAUGHINGFOX
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/11/2015 08:31 PM CDT
Regardless of what may or may not be present in lore (I'm certainly no authority on dark elves) drawing this line in the sand at Palestra seems patently absurd to me.
So here we have the Faendryl, an Elven House defined by their affinity for the sorcerous arts and all things magic. Why have this piece of frankly awesome lore out there, one that seems specifically designed to make room for squares in Faendryl culture... and then bam, just cordon it off?
The argument that Palestra are just too elite-tier doesn't hold water for me, personally. Grand Magister Tayeros was certainly an elite-tier Magister, but there's room in the Hall for Raelee. Aiska, Bristenn, Cryheart, and Metadi can be all be knights (of varying tiers, I might add) and recognize that the Golvern Star is miles above them in aptitude and skill. Why can't PCs be Palestra and recognize that they'll never be Aralyte?
I hardly know Durakar. I don't know if he or other Palestra PCs deserve a title and I'm not here to argue that case. I do believe that they deserve the opportunity to prove that they can be trusted with creating fun, lore-friendly RP for their fellow players, if for no other reason than what harm will it really cause?
Japhrimel says, "You can sum up all the worlds problems here at these embassies.. krolvin are disgusting.. erithi are kind of bland.. and the imperials, well.. no snacks at all."
So here we have the Faendryl, an Elven House defined by their affinity for the sorcerous arts and all things magic. Why have this piece of frankly awesome lore out there, one that seems specifically designed to make room for squares in Faendryl culture... and then bam, just cordon it off?
The argument that Palestra are just too elite-tier doesn't hold water for me, personally. Grand Magister Tayeros was certainly an elite-tier Magister, but there's room in the Hall for Raelee. Aiska, Bristenn, Cryheart, and Metadi can be all be knights (of varying tiers, I might add) and recognize that the Golvern Star is miles above them in aptitude and skill. Why can't PCs be Palestra and recognize that they'll never be Aralyte?
I hardly know Durakar. I don't know if he or other Palestra PCs deserve a title and I'm not here to argue that case. I do believe that they deserve the opportunity to prove that they can be trusted with creating fun, lore-friendly RP for their fellow players, if for no other reason than what harm will it really cause?
Japhrimel says, "You can sum up all the worlds problems here at these embassies.. krolvin are disgusting.. erithi are kind of bland.. and the imperials, well.. no snacks at all."
INIQUITY
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/12/2015 12:24 AM CDT
>The majority of the Faendryl magical community is unable to obtain the services of Palestra, which is directly in conflict with the reason they were created in the first place.
>The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
This is one of the objections I made when the message board controversy broke out after that document was released. The internal logic is manifestly wrong. If it were up to me there would be a disclaimer on it, where an Illistim loremaster (or even a Faendryl) calls the essay "propaganda" and says it has thematic value but should not be taken too seriously.
One way to fix this particular issue is to make the "496 of 500" who do not succeed in becoming Palestra be the source of the for-hire private contractors, which we would call "palestra" with a small p, and then it would really not matter because the player characters would be like Blackwater mercenaries rather than Navy SEALs. The culture would surely find it gauche for some elite, prestigious 1%-er to pimp himself out to the Mharcuis Virajith Faendryl's of the world. Though I'm not a fan of major summoning in your basement being enough of a thing to support an industry, either.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
>The graduating percentage of Palestra is unable to support the system that they were built to handle and would collapse under the weight of demand.
This is one of the objections I made when the message board controversy broke out after that document was released. The internal logic is manifestly wrong. If it were up to me there would be a disclaimer on it, where an Illistim loremaster (or even a Faendryl) calls the essay "propaganda" and says it has thematic value but should not be taken too seriously.
One way to fix this particular issue is to make the "496 of 500" who do not succeed in becoming Palestra be the source of the for-hire private contractors, which we would call "palestra" with a small p, and then it would really not matter because the player characters would be like Blackwater mercenaries rather than Navy SEALs. The culture would surely find it gauche for some elite, prestigious 1%-er to pimp himself out to the Mharcuis Virajith Faendryl's of the world. Though I'm not a fan of major summoning in your basement being enough of a thing to support an industry, either.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/12/2015 07:37 AM CDT
The problem with hiring the ones who did not make it to be Palestra is a contradiction with the original official Faendryl documentation where it states that "As each round of graduates finished their instruction, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra for a small fee." This would indicate that in order to be hired as such, one would need to have graduated.
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
SHEN1
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/12/2015 10:16 AM CDT
One would think that with the way things are written and the inconsistencies there is certainly cause for a moment for review by the staff over this.
I cannot even see how even the fantastically elite Faendryl can enter an academy and in 4 years come out level 100+ heck the way your describing 200+
Some of the Palestra? sure. But it would seem most would come out legend level and up through cap. (ranked)
The uber palestra with service 100+ etc
Compared to the population skill level of most in the game world? Everyone else starting at level 0.
If the Palestra 'Title' is the issue. For the few Faendryl players that want it. Why not consider actually doing a special Duskruin style academy. The player can enter it. (automated healer-cleric) and stays in it until they quit or become Palestra. with a rank based on thier skills
This would effectively pull the player character into the academy for x runs or hell 3-6 real months as they work on it. Or quit.
Can start the academy at level 20? 50? 100?
How about we look at how players can do things that spark imagination and goals for their PC's instead of crushing dreams.
Aurach Moonsahdew
John
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/12/2015 12:30 PM CDT
>>How about we look at how players can do things that spark imagination and goals for their PC's instead of crushing dreams.
This is kind of my opinion on it too. We get the declaration that no PC can be a Palestra and are now enforcing the rule of no items being made representative of the Palestra or Basilica(too late, yo, I've got a kit, a tattoo, a shield, a rifting tome, etc etc etc)
But along with this declaration and enforcement of alteration guidelines, we are offered no alternatives, no options. A simple NO leaves little room for growth and change. For someone who has RP'd as a Basilican Trained Summoner or a Palestra Warrior, for 10+ years, this hasn't been and isn't going to be taken well. The recently released governance documentation mentions various aspects of society that one might incorporate into their RP, which is nice, but it still requires drastic change to long-held backgrounds.
To have NPC across the board straight up say "no, you're not a Palestra" instead of "I've never heard of you, I doubt it, and if you are you're one of no consequence" is a staggering difference.
I would also like to point out that the portion of Faendryl law with regard to murder was removed, which was something I was really looking forward to and how I was going to justify murdering Demyse from time to time. The section on Half-Faendryl within society would have been great to keep to provide a legitimate "here it is, stop being a jerk" point for those who try to ignore or harm our half-breed brothers and sisters. The section on Logotheosis(sp? I'm at work) crystals gave me hope for a bardly aspect of society I could latch upon, and was fully intending to try to incorporate that into my RP, so I'm sad that got the cut, too. I've created items and events around many aspects of the pre-QC'd document and put them away for safe keeping, for when the document eventually came out, but am not really sure what to do with them now.
INIQUITY
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/13/2015 05:07 AM CDT
<<The problem with hiring the ones who did not make it to be Palestra is a contradiction with the original official Faendryl documentation where it states that "As each round of graduates finished their instruction, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra for a small fee." This would indicate that in order to be hired as such, one would need to have graduated.>>
There are deep inconsistencies with the rest of the game lore in that text. I'm just saying it is one possible way of tweaking it. "Graduates" could become loosely worded in this instance.
Something analogous to only having an associate's degree after four years, or a master's degree after not being allowed to pursue a doctorate.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
There are deep inconsistencies with the rest of the game lore in that text. I'm just saying it is one possible way of tweaking it. "Graduates" could become loosely worded in this instance.
Something analogous to only having an associate's degree after four years, or a master's degree after not being allowed to pursue a doctorate.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
INIQUITY
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/13/2015 05:42 AM CDT
Or worded in a different way, the academy is still the gatekeeper. Otherwise you would not be licensed at all, and still have to be hired through the Palestra.
In any event, a lower ranked Palestra affiliate, without the special authority reserved for NPCs. Aurach's mechanism might be used.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
In any event, a lower ranked Palestra affiliate, without the special authority reserved for NPCs. Aurach's mechanism might be used.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
KALLINI
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/13/2015 03:49 PM CDT
>Like being an Navy Seal, you don't run around to the bars telling the ladies this is what you do for a living. A true Palestra, to the Faendryl, would never make any such claim. I am not knocking the RP, because I myself have contemplated rolling up one myself, got a back story and everything laid out for the guy, but without the proper role playing climate he can't be played believably... just yet.
Interesting that you mention SEALs. Just as a bit of trivia - also related to Faendryl and special operations units - when I created the Harrowers, the "elevator pitch" version of them was "SFOD-D (Delta Force) with the IQ and scientific knowledge of Stephen Hawking."
Interesting that you mention SEALs. Just as a bit of trivia - also related to Faendryl and special operations units - when I created the Harrowers, the "elevator pitch" version of them was "SFOD-D (Delta Force) with the IQ and scientific knowledge of Stephen Hawking."
KALLINI
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 01:51 PM CDT
> The section on Logotheosis(sp? I'm at work) crystals gave me hope for a bardly aspect of society I could latch upon, and was fully intending to try to incorporate that into my RP, so I'm sad that got the cut, too. I've created items and events around many aspects of the pre-QC'd document and put them away for safe keeping, for when the document eventually came out, but am not really sure what to do with them now.
That was the original purpose of the crystals, in fact, in addition to:
-Providing a hook to the Agrestis, so that they would be something other than "We farm."
-Providing multiple future storyline hooks
-Providing for unique player backgrounds and cultural elements that involved something other than combat
-Providing a hook for cooperation between the two major dark elf cultures
That was the original purpose of the crystals, in fact, in addition to:
-Providing a hook to the Agrestis, so that they would be something other than "We farm."
-Providing multiple future storyline hooks
-Providing for unique player backgrounds and cultural elements that involved something other than combat
-Providing a hook for cooperation between the two major dark elf cultures
SCRAPPERK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 02:47 PM CDT
Just because they did not make the final cut from QC, does not mean that these avenues cannot be perused. There are tons of developed backstories and characteristics in as many characters across this game that are not connected to any official documentation or validation.
I find the best stories are the ones that are left to discover between the lines, and know that from my own experiences, some loopholes or missing pieces in documentation is intentionally left for us to discuss, discover, and create within.
- Guards haul off the stupid corpse. -
CLUNK24963
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 03:16 PM CDT
In real life, super intelligent historians still often disagree on the history of our world. You can almost always find supporting references ranging from scientifically authoritative to remote and obscure speculative verbal lore. History is rich in its interprtations of both fact and speculation.
Elanthia is no different. Even with official documentation is place, I can see no reason that characters would always 100% abide by the official documents.
In both reality and Elanthia, it should be fairly straightforward to accept that not everybody is aware of (and agrees) with recorded history. We would not have all been taught by the same history teacheres, nor would or individual cultures have recorded facts about events in the same way. It should also be fairly eeasy to accept that not all that has happened in the past is known and recorded accurately.
The discussion about what is or what is not the correct history can be as much part of our roleplay as anything else. Play your character according to what is right for them.
the somebody behind Clunk/Thuunk and all the others ...
INIQUITY
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 09:27 PM CDT
<<Even with official documentation is place, I can see no reason that characters would always 100% abide by the official documents.>> - CLUNK
Right. There are internal contradictions between the various texts, even chronology where dates are inconsistent by centuries or millennia. I think it adds something when you can calculate that Lanenreat was the very oldest Argent Mirror, for example, while she is depicted as youthful and frivolous by the Illistim.
The Faendryl culture history from 13-ish years ago is more extreme in that it basically says the Undead War was 15,000 years long, and that they only spent decades underground before the Sea Elf War and construction of New Ta'Faendryl. It more or less says demonic summoning was openly practiced in the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years.
So, I make the choice of having my Faendryl dismiss most of it as revisionist history while defending its purpose, just as I could have another character who believes the other Elves no longer know they are lying. I prefer it when these texts have known authors so I can say things like "Illuvassas is a hack" and "Kielanathia is one of the good ones."
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
Right. There are internal contradictions between the various texts, even chronology where dates are inconsistent by centuries or millennia. I think it adds something when you can calculate that Lanenreat was the very oldest Argent Mirror, for example, while she is depicted as youthful and frivolous by the Illistim.
The Faendryl culture history from 13-ish years ago is more extreme in that it basically says the Undead War was 15,000 years long, and that they only spent decades underground before the Sea Elf War and construction of New Ta'Faendryl. It more or less says demonic summoning was openly practiced in the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years.
So, I make the choice of having my Faendryl dismiss most of it as revisionist history while defending its purpose, just as I could have another character who believes the other Elves no longer know they are lying. I prefer it when these texts have known authors so I can say things like "Illuvassas is a hack" and "Kielanathia is one of the good ones."
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 09:58 PM CDT
It's in these discrepancies that a lot of character thoughts and ideas are built.
The bigger issue comes when there are organizations presented in the documentation that is meant to create a starting guide for people to play characters of those races. The main documentation for Faendryl stated that due to summoning the skills of warriors came into high demand and that to cater to this need Ondreian Shamsiel Faendryl ordered the Palestra founded. Further it then stated that as each round graduated, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra. This creates a picture of a large number of warriors able to be hired instead of a small, elite band only able to service ~0.1% of the populace(as estimated through my prior calculations). Further in that document it describes a typical Faendryl, showing both that a)a typical Faendryl is able to obtain the services of a Palestra and b)that some are even able to afford more than one such Palestra. Neither of these would be possible for a typical Faendryl using the current way of looking at the Palestra as an elite group.
It becomes an issue needing discussion and resolution when people who have created their characters based upon racial documents that existed for many years are then told that their RP is incorrect and no longer "allowed". At the Dark Elf OOC meeting we were told that we could RP as we wished, though when I went to the Faendryl Symposium this stance was obviously flawed as when my character greeted his fellow Palestra he was openly interrogated and denied as being a Palestra by them and the Ambassador. This also does not fall in line with the way that Faendryl are presented to deal with disputes when in public, as they see themselves above the petty bickering of other races. And before that his treatment at the hands of Lord Vathon calling him a pretender, though I knew that situation was going to go poorly there were many ways to have allowed my continued RP of belonging to an organization that has documented evidence of being more wide-spread than the current way that GMs think of them as being elite.
What I believe should happen here is to allow Palestran PCs, but only as the most basic of graduates from the academies. Keep the upper echelons of the organization as the elite NPCs that they should be. Perhaps even restrict which academies PCs can come from to the lesser most, though this can be largely mitigated by only allowing PCs to be the lowest ranked of graduates. This would allow there to be more RP hooks that everyone can use, more RP in general to be had between both NPCs and PCs, less awkward interactions when someone is continuing RP based off the official documentation, and above all else it would provide a way for new characters to be introduced to the game with some history and story behind them.
Valyrka, what do you think regarding the intent as seen in the original documentation and my idea on how we can bridge the gap between it and the current way that Palestra are being thought of by the GMs?
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
The bigger issue comes when there are organizations presented in the documentation that is meant to create a starting guide for people to play characters of those races. The main documentation for Faendryl stated that due to summoning the skills of warriors came into high demand and that to cater to this need Ondreian Shamsiel Faendryl ordered the Palestra founded. Further it then stated that as each round graduated, magicians could come and hire them directly from the Palestra. This creates a picture of a large number of warriors able to be hired instead of a small, elite band only able to service ~0.1% of the populace(as estimated through my prior calculations). Further in that document it describes a typical Faendryl, showing both that a)a typical Faendryl is able to obtain the services of a Palestra and b)that some are even able to afford more than one such Palestra. Neither of these would be possible for a typical Faendryl using the current way of looking at the Palestra as an elite group.
It becomes an issue needing discussion and resolution when people who have created their characters based upon racial documents that existed for many years are then told that their RP is incorrect and no longer "allowed". At the Dark Elf OOC meeting we were told that we could RP as we wished, though when I went to the Faendryl Symposium this stance was obviously flawed as when my character greeted his fellow Palestra he was openly interrogated and denied as being a Palestra by them and the Ambassador. This also does not fall in line with the way that Faendryl are presented to deal with disputes when in public, as they see themselves above the petty bickering of other races. And before that his treatment at the hands of Lord Vathon calling him a pretender, though I knew that situation was going to go poorly there were many ways to have allowed my continued RP of belonging to an organization that has documented evidence of being more wide-spread than the current way that GMs think of them as being elite.
What I believe should happen here is to allow Palestran PCs, but only as the most basic of graduates from the academies. Keep the upper echelons of the organization as the elite NPCs that they should be. Perhaps even restrict which academies PCs can come from to the lesser most, though this can be largely mitigated by only allowing PCs to be the lowest ranked of graduates. This would allow there to be more RP hooks that everyone can use, more RP in general to be had between both NPCs and PCs, less awkward interactions when someone is continuing RP based off the official documentation, and above all else it would provide a way for new characters to be introduced to the game with some history and story behind them.
Valyrka, what do you think regarding the intent as seen in the original documentation and my idea on how we can bridge the gap between it and the current way that Palestra are being thought of by the GMs?
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/14/2015 10:52 PM CDT
>I find the best stories are the ones that are left to discover between the lines, and know that from my own experiences, some loopholes or missing pieces in documentation is intentionally left for us to discuss, discover, and create within.
I agree completely with Greganth's player. (Nope, not even one "however" here!)
I'd hope the logotheosis concepts and others that are out there in some form don't have to be shelved because they aren't official (or perhaps "not official yet" is a better way of putting it because a lot of things players embrace later find themselves into official lore, like the existence of the Dhe'nar). Those interstitial areas that lore doesn't explicitly describe are good places for roleplay to grow -- as long as player-created lore doesn't directly contravene official lore or in-game reality, that is. We don't get to fly or be unicorns, for instance.
I agree completely with Greganth's player. (Nope, not even one "however" here!)
I'd hope the logotheosis concepts and others that are out there in some form don't have to be shelved because they aren't official (or perhaps "not official yet" is a better way of putting it because a lot of things players embrace later find themselves into official lore, like the existence of the Dhe'nar). Those interstitial areas that lore doesn't explicitly describe are good places for roleplay to grow -- as long as player-created lore doesn't directly contravene official lore or in-game reality, that is. We don't get to fly or be unicorns, for instance.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 05:34 AM CDT
I hope this inconsistency gets resolved in favor of players with long standing roleplay. While I haven't played a dark elf since like 1998, I have been put in the same unfortunate circumstances with Menos' RP in the past. I do not feel the need to rehash those old fights, but I will simply say that player-characters should be able to claim just about anything and let those people they interact with decide if it is believable or not. Player-characters are the stand out members of society (if they want to be), the 99.9% who are simple quiet peasants and laborers are those people who run when you cast E-wave in town with no PCs present or yell when you murder someone. There is no reason to take away the RP of being one of the elite, if the player can pull it off.
Go ahead and limit leadership and royalty positions, things where they should have legal authority. But in a game with a level cap of 100, let people at level 100 be considered the elite of their race and profession. Make your NPCs impressive based on their own character not on excluding anyone else from having the same profession.
To all those Palestra guards out there: Menos will still hate you as a Palestra guard and not just as a darkling hiresword.
Anyway, rant over.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
Go ahead and limit leadership and royalty positions, things where they should have legal authority. But in a game with a level cap of 100, let people at level 100 be considered the elite of their race and profession. Make your NPCs impressive based on their own character not on excluding anyone else from having the same profession.
To all those Palestra guards out there: Menos will still hate you as a Palestra guard and not just as a darkling hiresword.
Anyway, rant over.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 07:33 AM CDT
>I will simply say that player-characters should be able to claim just about anything and let those people they interact with decide if it is believable or not.
That's exactly what I meant by differing approaches to RP; what you described is pretty much a free-form RPG, which (to me) is exactly what I'm not looking for from GSIV. I like that there's structure, that we as players don't get to define everything, pushing boundaries constantly and only settling on a character once other players say "Stop that. It's silly." I like realism mixed into my fiction, and to me, letting people do what they want and be unicorns and vampires and rolton-hybrid otherkin and emperors of the far-off land of Mundanitania would absolutely wreck the cohesive, shared-fiction flavor of the game. Collaborative fiction isn't about who can top the other writers with increasingly outlandish plot devices and characters but about fusing disparate ideas into a shared vision that's bigger and better than any one of those ideas would be on its own. Whenever I encounter a character whose back-story is wildly inappropriate for the lore and genre, I try to change the subject or find somewhere else to be because otherwise I have only two choices: Play along with what my character would assume is delusion, or call out the delusion and make every RP'ed interaction with that person All About Him/Her. No, thank you. I honestly find it a selfish or even narcissistic way to roleplay if carried to extremes.
. . . And yet!
You and I, despite having almost entirely different views on roleplaying, are in total agreement on finding a way to incorporate Palestra players into the extant lore. If we concur on that despite our vastly different perspectives, then it probably is something worth more consideration.
That's exactly what I meant by differing approaches to RP; what you described is pretty much a free-form RPG, which (to me) is exactly what I'm not looking for from GSIV. I like that there's structure, that we as players don't get to define everything, pushing boundaries constantly and only settling on a character once other players say "Stop that. It's silly." I like realism mixed into my fiction, and to me, letting people do what they want and be unicorns and vampires and rolton-hybrid otherkin and emperors of the far-off land of Mundanitania would absolutely wreck the cohesive, shared-fiction flavor of the game. Collaborative fiction isn't about who can top the other writers with increasingly outlandish plot devices and characters but about fusing disparate ideas into a shared vision that's bigger and better than any one of those ideas would be on its own. Whenever I encounter a character whose back-story is wildly inappropriate for the lore and genre, I try to change the subject or find somewhere else to be because otherwise I have only two choices: Play along with what my character would assume is delusion, or call out the delusion and make every RP'ed interaction with that person All About Him/Her. No, thank you. I honestly find it a selfish or even narcissistic way to roleplay if carried to extremes.
. . . And yet!
You and I, despite having almost entirely different views on roleplaying, are in total agreement on finding a way to incorporate Palestra players into the extant lore. If we concur on that despite our vastly different perspectives, then it probably is something worth more consideration.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 09:17 AM CDT
I have either not expressed myself well enough or you've misunderstood. I did not mean to advocate an anything goes with everyone accepting it position. Palestra, demonwall soldiers, imperial knights all exists in GS and should therefore be viable character choices. Let the other characters decide if the person is a Palestra or else a lier trying to look impressive. A GM saying there are zero player run Palestra is robbing both players of their choices in the matter. I want everyone to play within the world of GS, I just don't want cool things to be written about and then cordoned off for NPCs only or changed such as to pull the rug out from under people.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
SIWAS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 10:04 AM CDT
It seems to me that the patently obvious solution would be to limit the Basilican Guard to NPC- only, since those are the best of the best and often drawn FROM the Palestra.
I missed the Palestra presentation at the Symposium, and I was so put off and uncomfortable reading the log of it, specifically how Durakar's character was treated, that I was leaning towards not attending the rest of the events with my own Palestra character. I felt as though my RP would be unwelcome, and second-guessed anything I said in front of the NPCs to make sure I wouldn't cause them to try and shame me for saying it. This is not how people should feel when around NPCs, ever.
--
You quietly whisper to Tolomyn, "I would like 'an unpretentious albugineous rumchunder dress whorled with chrysochlorous penniform arabesques', please."
>
You gaze hopefully at Tolomyn.
>
Tolomyn stares at you.
I missed the Palestra presentation at the Symposium, and I was so put off and uncomfortable reading the log of it, specifically how Durakar's character was treated, that I was leaning towards not attending the rest of the events with my own Palestra character. I felt as though my RP would be unwelcome, and second-guessed anything I said in front of the NPCs to make sure I wouldn't cause them to try and shame me for saying it. This is not how people should feel when around NPCs, ever.
--
You quietly whisper to Tolomyn, "I would like 'an unpretentious albugineous rumchunder dress whorled with chrysochlorous penniform arabesques', please."
>
You gaze hopefully at Tolomyn.
>
Tolomyn stares at you.
CLOS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 10:05 AM CDT
Documentation is meant to enhance RP, not affront people with decades invested in character development.
There shouldn't have to be a middle ground, it should have been built into the documentation to begin with given how visible a part of the RP landscape these players are.
I have some very serious reservations with the way this situation has been handled, and expect things to be corrected not compromised.
>>>Palestra, demonwall soldiers, imperial knights all exists in GS and should therefore be viable character choices.
This exactly, my character, having fought and easily bested Taladorian knights, Jantalarian Knights and Hendorian Knights, and stood on the Demonwall fighting toe to toe, is easily capable of being a Palestra.
They are not half-Arkati, they are skilled soldiers. It is unfair to rob people of this RP-choice.
ZHOUY1
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 11:16 AM CDT
<<<But in a game with a level cap of 100, let people at level 100 be considered the elite of their race and profession. Make your NPCs impressive based on their own character not on excluding anyone else from having the same profession.>>>
I actually disagree somewhat with this in spirit. I think whatever background you come up with for your character, it should end up with a situation where they can logically be on the streets of Wehnimer's Landing at Level 0, so that all the adventures through the levels where they learn their skills actually happen. It would be very weird to have someone get to 100 and then retcon their entire background so that they've always been part of some elite order. (The flip side of that is that characters should be able to earn entry more often with in-game RP opportunities.)
I actually disagree somewhat with this in spirit. I think whatever background you come up with for your character, it should end up with a situation where they can logically be on the streets of Wehnimer's Landing at Level 0, so that all the adventures through the levels where they learn their skills actually happen. It would be very weird to have someone get to 100 and then retcon their entire background so that they've always been part of some elite order. (The flip side of that is that characters should be able to earn entry more often with in-game RP opportunities.)
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 11:21 AM CDT
I would still like to see the Palestra done similarly to the human knights. Not everyone can be one, but those with distinction? Officially recognized and given some sort of item of office/title, similar to spurs. Maybe not elite or anything, but.. some level of Palestra. I was thinking of possible "levels" of Palestra, as they mentioned rankings. We have seen Palestra Blades, but what about maybe... Palestra Wards, Palestra Exemplars, Palestra Shields.. etc.. something like that.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 11:55 AM CDT
(The flip side of that is that characters should be able to earn entry more often with in-game RP opportunities.)
>ZHOUY1
I just can't put that much faith in the GMs to run storylines for each organization. There are only so many GMs, they tend to run stories they are interested in, and as we see in this thread they do not always lead places characters would like to go. Heck, there are towns and races that have gone a decade or more without a major storyline touching on them. I would rather see someone having fun and playing a solidly realized character than worry about how the level 0 version of them fit in. Maybe they were a political appointment to the order, maybe they bribed someone, maybe they hit their head and forgot how to fight, it doesn't really matter to me. I mean, we need look no further than the other Dark elf culture to see what can blossom out of player driven RP.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
>ZHOUY1
I just can't put that much faith in the GMs to run storylines for each organization. There are only so many GMs, they tend to run stories they are interested in, and as we see in this thread they do not always lead places characters would like to go. Heck, there are towns and races that have gone a decade or more without a major storyline touching on them. I would rather see someone having fun and playing a solidly realized character than worry about how the level 0 version of them fit in. Maybe they were a political appointment to the order, maybe they bribed someone, maybe they hit their head and forgot how to fight, it doesn't really matter to me. I mean, we need look no further than the other Dark elf culture to see what can blossom out of player driven RP.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 12:48 PM CDT
On similar lines, if the symposium has taught me anything, it's the sheer scale of events we can put together if we are motivated to do it. Makes me want to do a yearly Faendryl related festival. Lectures, discussions, raffles, etc. Utilizing the structure, prize closet, raffle abilities, criers and news items of the Enclave, I don't see why we couldn't do something along the same lines regularly. With that in mind, are there any particular subjects that were not covered during the symposium that people are interested/curious on that they might like to go over or maybe work to flesh out?
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 01:03 PM CDT
>They are not half-Arkati, they are skilled soldiers. It is unfair to rob people of this RP-choice. -- Clos
But there's the rub: If GMs want to say they effectively are super-powerful and rare, then how do we achieve common ground between that view, which is in fact supported by some documentation, and the view that they're simply highly skilled fighters, which is supported by other documentation? That's kind of my point -- right now, Palestra are both a wave and a particle, and there should be some way to resolve that duality. Like you, I hope it's done in such a way that players of Palestra can continue to play their characters but won't have access to higher orders or classifications within the group. That seems like a win/win to me as it would validate current players' RP decisions without taking away any of the awe-inspiring might of the elite Basilican Guard and Palestra Blades like Aralyte.
I want players to have their characters intact, but I also want to see these incredible Faendryl fighters who just bristle with lethal power -- and that's something players can't do.
>I think whatever background you come up with for your character, it should end up with a situation where they can logically be on the streets of Wehnimer's Landing at Level 0, so that all the adventures through the levels where they learn their skills actually happen. It would be very weird to have someone get to 100 and then retcon their entire background so that they've always been part of some elite order. -- Zhouy1
I'm in complete agreement here. It's a little hard to do some hand-wavy stuff once you're capped and say "I was always a member of an elite cadre of highly trained fighters" when evidence doesn't bear that out. Players remember that your character used to be right next to theirs killing hobs and thyrils, and it strains credulity to imagine that the characters wouldn't remember these events IC either. There's a reason most people's characters start from modest beginnings; it's easier to explain how you're a level 15 adventurer than it is to come up with why you're a level 15 Palestra -- and again, that leads back to whether the GMs want to see a level 15 Palestra when it seems they're going in a different direction instead and making them part of a rare elite.
But there's the rub: If GMs want to say they effectively are super-powerful and rare, then how do we achieve common ground between that view, which is in fact supported by some documentation, and the view that they're simply highly skilled fighters, which is supported by other documentation? That's kind of my point -- right now, Palestra are both a wave and a particle, and there should be some way to resolve that duality. Like you, I hope it's done in such a way that players of Palestra can continue to play their characters but won't have access to higher orders or classifications within the group. That seems like a win/win to me as it would validate current players' RP decisions without taking away any of the awe-inspiring might of the elite Basilican Guard and Palestra Blades like Aralyte.
I want players to have their characters intact, but I also want to see these incredible Faendryl fighters who just bristle with lethal power -- and that's something players can't do.
>I think whatever background you come up with for your character, it should end up with a situation where they can logically be on the streets of Wehnimer's Landing at Level 0, so that all the adventures through the levels where they learn their skills actually happen. It would be very weird to have someone get to 100 and then retcon their entire background so that they've always been part of some elite order. -- Zhouy1
I'm in complete agreement here. It's a little hard to do some hand-wavy stuff once you're capped and say "I was always a member of an elite cadre of highly trained fighters" when evidence doesn't bear that out. Players remember that your character used to be right next to theirs killing hobs and thyrils, and it strains credulity to imagine that the characters wouldn't remember these events IC either. There's a reason most people's characters start from modest beginnings; it's easier to explain how you're a level 15 adventurer than it is to come up with why you're a level 15 Palestra -- and again, that leads back to whether the GMs want to see a level 15 Palestra when it seems they're going in a different direction instead and making them part of a rare elite.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 02:06 PM CDT
>I'm in complete agreement here. It's a little hard to do some hand-wavy stuff once you're capped and say "I was always a member of an elite cadre of highly trained fighters" when evidence doesn't bear that out. Players remember that your character used to be right next to theirs killing hobs and thyrils, and it strains credulity to imagine that the characters wouldn't remember these events IC either. There's a reason most people's characters start from modest beginnings; it's easier to explain how you're a level 15 adventurer than it is to come up with why you're a level 15 Palestra -- and again, that leads back to whether the GMs want to see a level 15 Palestra when it seems they're going in a different direction instead and making them part of a rare elite.
>UBERWENCH
I don't think we're ever going to agree or convince each other on this one. My OOC knowledge of how the game works, IE you have to start at level 0 and there is no way for a PC to go to NTF is not going to inform my opinions on someone's RP choices. You are transferring your knowledge over to your character way more than I am comfortable with. (I highly doubt your character followed around and watched everyone level up). It boils down to 'that can't be done in the mechanics of the game so you cannot have it as part of your story'.
For me, so long as they have a good IC rational such as "I wasn't even trying against those giant rats." or "I went off last year and did my Palestra training", I can accept it. I would similarly not have issue with someone who says they've been married to another character for 200 years (if their character was 215+ years old), even though I know they couldn't have rolled up that long ago. Things happen to characters before they roll up and when they're not logged in.
Menos is 342 years old, under your interpretation it would be wrong to RP him as having started his military training any earlier than age 328 because that is how old he was when I rolled him up. Under that system it would be virtually impossible to play anything but a 20 year old Vaalorian as they could not have been in the army yet (no weapon skills, level 0, no attending IC army events). Heck, it isn't even possible for a player character to actually visit Loenthra, should we stop people from saying they went home last week on their Loenthra character? A game without Tsalim's grizzled old veteran hide (even at level 0) and a million other little events that can't for whatever reason be done in game would be a much duller one. Wizards cannot try and devise new spells, because you've learned all the 900 circle. I cannot be a sheep farmer because there is no sheep farm I can go to and work...
Not everyone needs to be the same humble beginnings to adventurer story. For every time I have to roll my eyes at someone trying to be royalty or some half-arkati (read pretty much zero), I have seen a hundred players roleplaying a wonderful character that doesn't fit your neat little in game only development.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
>UBERWENCH
I don't think we're ever going to agree or convince each other on this one. My OOC knowledge of how the game works, IE you have to start at level 0 and there is no way for a PC to go to NTF is not going to inform my opinions on someone's RP choices. You are transferring your knowledge over to your character way more than I am comfortable with. (I highly doubt your character followed around and watched everyone level up). It boils down to 'that can't be done in the mechanics of the game so you cannot have it as part of your story'.
For me, so long as they have a good IC rational such as "I wasn't even trying against those giant rats." or "I went off last year and did my Palestra training", I can accept it. I would similarly not have issue with someone who says they've been married to another character for 200 years (if their character was 215+ years old), even though I know they couldn't have rolled up that long ago. Things happen to characters before they roll up and when they're not logged in.
Menos is 342 years old, under your interpretation it would be wrong to RP him as having started his military training any earlier than age 328 because that is how old he was when I rolled him up. Under that system it would be virtually impossible to play anything but a 20 year old Vaalorian as they could not have been in the army yet (no weapon skills, level 0, no attending IC army events). Heck, it isn't even possible for a player character to actually visit Loenthra, should we stop people from saying they went home last week on their Loenthra character? A game without Tsalim's grizzled old veteran hide (even at level 0) and a million other little events that can't for whatever reason be done in game would be a much duller one. Wizards cannot try and devise new spells, because you've learned all the 900 circle. I cannot be a sheep farmer because there is no sheep farm I can go to and work...
Not everyone needs to be the same humble beginnings to adventurer story. For every time I have to roll my eyes at someone trying to be royalty or some half-arkati (read pretty much zero), I have seen a hundred players roleplaying a wonderful character that doesn't fit your neat little in game only development.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 02:24 PM CDT
I think you're focusing more on how your view and mine differ than on my point in bringing this up, which was that even though we see things from very different angles, we do have common ground on the concept of player-run Palestra. I didn't post to debate this, which is really more for the general RP folder anyway, but to illustrate how even people who differ dramatically in their RP philosophies share a desire to see something happen for PC Palestra.
Maybe we could refocus on that -- on finding possibilities for players of Palestra characters to fit their roleplay to the lore.
Maybe we could refocus on that -- on finding possibilities for players of Palestra characters to fit their roleplay to the lore.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 02:29 PM CDT
Fair enough.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
AIM: GS4Menos
>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 02:41 PM CDT
If you don't think we can't occasionally bristle with power you've never wandered around Nelemar when I think it's empty and open 1030 and kill some people(sorry again!).
>>Like you, I hope it's done in such a way that players of Palestra can continue to play their characters but won't have access to higher orders or classifications within the group.
When I read this I found myself thinking how I rather like that we still say players of Palestra instead of players of characters RP'd as Palestra. I see this as a positive thing.
I've said it in some regard before, but the Palestra issue seems to be one we could break down with a comparison to the Imperials. Player characters can be knights, but they aren't going to be super elite order of the golvern star knights.. or some other super elite group.
I don't think anyone who has been a Palestra for years and years is asking for any special privileges or powers, merely to be able to be recognized for what they have RP'd as and contributed to the experience that is being a Faendryl in this game. Those of us who have built Palestra were going off old documentation, that of the Palestra as being a common occurrence, able to be hired by most summoners. This more recent documentation is like a reversal of when DC blew up the sun and required a new sun to be made, to make superman less powerful.. a GS retcon.
Personally, I say continue RPing how you have, utilize the reasoning you have before.. and if an NPC disagrees and acts like the NPC Palestra did towards Durakar, ignore them. Or suggest we maybe need a new asylum for these obviously silly people, then ignore them. If we have been told we can RP however we want(and we have), but it wont be backed up by NPCs then ignore them. If they aren't going to support roleplaying options, then they serve no purpose and aren't worth paying attention to. Quite frankly, I feel Durakar's responses and actions in response to all of this have been exemplary and kept IC.
The incident with Lord Vathon, for example.. instead of saying "no, you're no Palestra" and blowing you up, it could have been "You're no Palestra I've heard of, I don't have to heed your authority" and then blow you up.
Instead of questioning every aspect of your RP and being smarmy it could have been "Well, I've never heard of you, if you are a Palestra, you must have gone to some lesser school I'm not familiar with". In essence, not saying "yes, this person is a Palestra" and also not saying "No, this person is not a Palestra", but instead saying "If you are one, good for you, but it doesn't put you in a position of authority or able to dictate policy/practices/actions of the rest of us here"... if that makes sense.
UBERWENCH
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 10:00 PM CDT
I hope the rest of the symposium, which was outstanding, doesn't get subsumed by the Palestra controversy. It's important, but it's a single symptom of a larger issue -- an issue that's in the process of being resolved. We went for a long time on some very scanty official lore, longer than I've been back to witness, and that's only recently changed. That big shift has left a Palestra-shaped hole at the moment, but holes can be filled. The question now to GMs and players is how to fill that hole in a way that's reasonably satisfactory to everyone.
My point was not to argue about vastly different roleplaying styles or whether structured RP is better than freeform but to show that even people with wildly divergent ideas about RP have this one concern in common.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
My point was not to argue about vastly different roleplaying styles or whether structured RP is better than freeform but to show that even people with wildly divergent ideas about RP have this one concern in common.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
CHULAK
Re: The Documentation Discussion
06/15/2015 10:10 PM CDT
I agree, the Symposium was a wonderful venue and had a lot of outstanding offerings at it from both Players and GMs. The new document is also great in the way that it expands on much within Faendryl society that has, up to now, been shadowed in vague terms if even approached. It will open up some new avenues for RP and hopefully the week will see continued gatherings among Faendryl continue. I look forward to this continued interaction with all of you, Player and GM alike!
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
An announcer shouts, "Introducing our new combatant, Duskruin Arena Hero Durakar al'Yari Faendryl the Captain of the Mist Harbor Militia, hailing from Isle of the Four Winds!"
