Just curious: after the recent Voln review (which is now amazing, by the way), are there any upcoming plans to have a similar review for CoL? It seems a bit... underwhelming now, compared to the other two societies, and given the recent changes to Voln.

---

"The human imagination... has great difficulty in living strictly within the confines of a materialist practice or philosophy. It dreams, like a dog in its basket, of hares in the open."
- John Berger

Agreed. Please don't touch CoL.

The only thing I'd like to see is Hopelessness replaced with something that's actually useful.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

CoL is intended to provide fast, easy power, but it comes with a high price. I don't feel adding "utility" roles to CoL would be in keeping with the spirit of the society. It's power, plain and simple. I wouldn't discount the inherent danger in using that power, both mechanical and in a roleplaying sense. It's the only society, for example, in which one minor mistake can result in being stripped of your abilities, or worse, suffering a spirit death. And of course, there's the small matter of your debt...

There already have been some significant CoL changes. Several of the signs have been changed to use the standard combat resolution system, so they are already more consistent with both Voln and Sunfist.

I wouldn't say I'm firmly opposed to any sort of review, but honestly I don't see a need. I would NOT be in favor of making CoL more like the others. It's different for a reason.

That said, one change I'd LOVE to see for CoL is more RP opportunities both within and outside the society. Voln gives a character a lifelong mission, as do the Guardians of Sunfist. You never really separate from those missions, as they provide RP impetus that lives on long beyond mastery. But CoL tends to be left behind.

I don't think CoL powers need more limitations or costs. I think mastering CoL, itself, should be more impactful upon a character's life. Granted, that's more of an RP choice, and can be played out in a variety of ways. Some characters embrace the power behind CoL. Some are truly disturbed and haunted by their roles. I even play one upbeat character who is utterly oblivious to the stuff that silly Poohbah told her, and thinks it's a "fun hunting club". However you choose to play it, it would be interesting to see the consequences come up more often in GM-driven events.

Beyond that, I think CoL is "working as intended". :)

~ Heathyr and friends.

>CoL is intended to provide fast, easy power, but it comes with a high price. I don't feel adding "utility" roles to CoL would be in keeping with the spirit of the society. It's power, plain and simple. I wouldn't discount the inherent danger in using that power, both mechanical and in a roleplaying sense. It's the only society, for example, in which one minor mistake can result in being stripped of your abilities, or worse, suffering a spirit death. And of course, there's the small matter of your debt...

See, I don't see it that way. It comes with a high price from an IC perspective, which can be completely ignored and moved on from. It does NOT have a high price from a gameplay perspective; in fact, it has the lowest price of the three societies. That many of its powers require spirit drain to function does carry the risk of spirit death or being stripped of your powers for a period of time, but aren't there similar trade-offs in the others? In Voln, you can run out of favor and LITERALLY lose your powers unless you farm undead, and in GoS (the least risky of the three I think) if you use Sigil of Escape in emergency mode, you lose it for a day, not to mention the ever-present "spell release causes nerve death" situation that has gotten me two out of five times I've emergency escaped. Using the powers carelessly offers the largest risk in CoL, but GoS can do nerve damage or popped muscles, and Voln is entirely dependent on your hunting.

I consider the "price" of struggling through Voln at low levels, or trying to complete the 4 Headmaster tasks in Sunfist to be far higher than the paltry amount of effort to "master and forget" with CoL. I have had six characters in Voln, and never ONCE have I mastered it.

I respect the IC bargain of CoL, and its why I only have one CoL member amongst every character I've ever played. But I think the mechanical benefits are so high, and the emphasis on RP so low that its very, very easy to just pretend it doesn't exist. The only thing I've ever discovered where this aspect comes back into play is some weird mechanic where you have hesitation when fighting Sheruvians in the Landing.

>That said, one change I'd LOVE to see for CoL is more RP opportunities both within and outside the society. Voln gives a character a lifelong mission, as do the Guardians of Sunfist. You never really separate from those missions, as they provide RP impetus that lives on long beyond mastery. But CoL tends to be left behind.

Seconded. When I discussed with Evarin's player back in the Summer about whether Kastrel should join a society (from an OOC perspective) his biggest recommendation was "RP it". But there was almost no way to RP considering CoL other than walking into townsquare, asking if anyone knew anything about "the other society" and trying to be sneaky about it from there. The very society discourages RP with non-members.

>I don't think CoL powers need more limitations or costs. I think mastering CoL, itself, should be more impactful upon a character's life. Granted, that's more of an RP choice, and can be played out in a variety of ways. Some characters embrace the power behind CoL. Some are truly disturbed and haunted by their roles. I even play one upbeat character who is utterly oblivious to the stuff that silly Poohbah told her

I think it should be more impactful as well. And while you listed three types of characters and how they interact with CoL, its my experience that the vast majority are in the last group; utterly oblivious or ignoring everything about the society.

>Throwing my hat into the "please leave it alone" ring. There is no shot Wracking escapes a CoL review without being made completely useless, and while I don't need to use it on my capped main, Wracking is a staple of lower-level warding-based hunters.

I don't think thats necessarily the case. Wracking is so powerful it could withstand a serious nerf and still be the most powerful mana regeneration power around. Think about it; if it was reduced to refilling only 75% of your mana, it would still far outstrip anything else around, yet wouldn't be QUITE so broken.

My only thought about wracking and other spirit-draining societal powers is that many players have known for years how to make it not as much a hit to oneself as it could be. Most people that plan to join CoL are going to have 8 or 9 spirit from the start with high AUR stats. However, you have someone join CoL with a low AUR and only have 5 or 6 total spirit and it is definitely going to hurt and cause someone to actually have to choose how often they use their abilities. CoL was much more cumbersome back in the day when it was extremely rare for players to get over level 30 and have the length of levels for their stats to actually grow much.

Not that this post is advocating a drastic change with CoL. Just pondering on how much harder it was initially.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er

Hmmm, interesting. The majority of response seems to indicate that it functions quite well as is. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something in my admittedly brief assessment of it, so I'll take heed of those with more experience in the matter.

I'll agree that it does seem, however, to lack the utility and versatility of the other Societies. Perhaps what I'm missing is its greater benefits to lower-level characters, that might "peak" lower than the other two... does that sound like an accurate speculation?

Thanks for the response!

---

"The human imagination... has great difficulty in living strictly within the confines of a materialist practice or philosophy. It dreams, like a dog in its basket, of hares in the open."
- John Berger

CoL needs less of a mechanical update and more of an RP and purpose update. Let Scribes get ahold of it but I don't think Finros and Coase need to.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

ATTENTION: Monks were only designed to reach level 39. Please check into the nearest Inn and choose the retire option immediately before you break the game completely!

Woops...posted early.

>Adding 26 steps and stripping everyone of Master is really the road to

1) Making Mastering meaningful
2) Getting a way to make it a society where members really interact
3) Bringing it up to speed with the modern game

~daid (player of Kaldonis)

Actually, the first recorded CoL member to realize the full penalty for his folly was just defeated in the Lich Citadel.

'At no point does. . . ' speaks well for the past, but doesn't bode so good for those minutes yet to come.

Doug

>>But that's just the sort of thing I meant about consequences. ;)

Yep! I'm enjoying some of the points in these threads re: consequences.

For my part, I think the Council needs a serious re-look and update. For now, I'd be ok with leaving Wracking pretty much operating as it does today. It has a form of built in cool down, for all primarily AS driven professions. Of the CS driven professions, until sorcery is moderately improved, it would be a significant penalty / burden.

But - I would also say that if sorcery were improved to an appropriate degree, then Wracking should be brought back further in line with the other societies.

"And pity ye the soul who seeks such wondrous-seeming power, for he knows not what he seeks. Yet eternal damnation shall be the price he bear for this brief flash of brilliance."

Doug

I've mastered as many if not more times and I've seen the whole spiel. I know what the Poohbah says. But that is not the same as it actually happening. The Poohbah is hardly an objective party, here. Think about it. You're saying it must be true, because the guy who deceived and corrupted you told you it was true. And although he did use the words, "you gave us your soul," there's no direct evidence that this literally happened. It could easily be a figure of speech, or simply a threat (real or empty). There's no way to tell. Which, I think, is probably intentional, since it leaves many possibilities open to the player. Some characters may swallow the story, hook, line and sinker. Some may embrace it. Others may doubt.

So while I see where you're coming from, it isn't conclusive evidence. It's just your take on it. ;)

~ Heathyr and friends

<<<But please don't act as if I am speaking nonsense. The Poohbah said something, and I first paraphrased it, and then had to quote it. I'd rather not need to quote things that are basic facts; if you want to interpret them, that's up to you (and my discussion even specifically addresses such things).>>>

I certainly never intended to suggest you're speaking nonsense. Nothing of the kind, I understand where you're coming from. But while it is factual that the Poohbah said those things, that does not make the content of what he said factual. There's plenty of room for interpretation there. I don't see any flaw in logic to doubt the Poohbah's words on this matter, for those so inclined. To the contrary, I think his final little speech should be considered highly suspect, at best, considering his apparent motivation.

Anyway, we do basically agree on the matter of consequences. I think we may simply differ on what those consequences might actually be, considering our differing views on the soul question.

~ Heathyr and friends

>I never intended to suggest there should be some mechanical consequence of losing one's soul, since the actual event never arises (it's only implied).

I think there should be, and there is one that I am aware of. I think its quite cool too.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Sheruvian_monk
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Sheruvian_initiate

I'd love to see more stuff like that. Because you do not need to foster favor, there is no "continuing goal" such as warcamps that keeps you in the loop, and because the society mechanically discourages RP, this society is SO easy to master and forget. More consequences like this would fit right in.

>The character I mentioned, who refers to the Society as a "hunting club", is far too upbeat and naive to take the Poohbah too seriously. Still, she has no particular reason to believe all that silly stuff about the "final battle". Okay, whatever, Poohbah! I never would have considered her "typical" by any means.

She may not be, but this dismissal of the Poohbah's implications is very typical. Far too many CoL members just pretend he is full of it, or pretend it doesn't exist at all, because it is so "easy" to simply pretend none of it exists. And its quite a flaw in the society.

>And although he did use the words, "you gave us your soul," there's no direct evidence that this literally happened.

See above link to Sheruvians. Lost soul? Ehh, not definite evidence. Something going on? Certainly.

>But while it is factual that the Poohbah said those things, that does not make the content of what he said factual.

That is a completely fair and reasonable outlook on things. But where else in the ENTIRE game is there such an important implication that is so regularly dismissed as nothing but non-sense? You'd be hard pressed to find so many Voln-members who solemnly swear that their powers do not come from Liabo arkati (which would be a conflicting issue for evil/Lornonite players). I suppose what it comes down to is not that you don't have a fair point, but that justification is cherry-picked basically ONLY for this society, where the only downside of CoL is "ignored" out of the way. If there were more scenarios where players were forced to confront, or limited, by their choice of society, it might be harder for them to just ignored it, and in THEORY, it might make the highly mechanics-oriented decision to join CoL somewhat less one-sided.
________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg.

>"Walkar says, "Yes, too many kings never work. Especially when there's only one throne. It's a wicked game."
>Shameless plug.

<<<I'd love to see more stuff like that. Because you do not need to foster favor, there is no "continuing goal" such as warcamps that keeps you in the loop, and because the society mechanically discourages RP, this society is SO easy to master and forget. More consequences like this would fit right in.>>>

I don't disagree at all. I'd love to see more things of this nature. To me, while this does support the conclusion that one's soul is already gone, it still isn't proof. It does add to the mystery and sense of foreboding, however, which I think is the point. I think the sense of doubt (and perhaps dread) is intentional, and only serves to support roleplay, no matter which angle the player takes.

<<<She may not be, but this dismissal of the Poohbah's implications is very typical. Far too many CoL members just pretend he is full of it, or pretend it doesn't exist at all, because it is so "easy" to simply pretend none of it exists. And its quite a flaw in the society.>>>

That's rather disappointing, but I suppose to be expected. How many times has the modern player mastered the society? It's all a bit old hat now and--at the risk of mixing metaphors--the cat's been out of the bag for quite some time. If the society does get reviewed, adding some on-going connection would go a long way in keeping the RP fresh.

<<<See above link to Sheruvians. Lost soul? Ehh, not definite evidence. Something going on? Certainly.>>>

Absolutely! I think that element of lingering doubt is important for RP potential. A definite "yes, your soul's toast" or "no, you still have hope" would put a kibosh on lots of RP potential. Of course, it will always be up to the individual player to engage or not engage the drama. Naturally, it would be more fun if everybody chose to RP more, but it's not something we can realistically demand from everyone. All we can do is provide the setting and props. And I think that's best done with an open-ended approach.

As you said, there is definitely "something going on" but too often I see CoL members automatically lumped into the "evil" pile, and I think this is wrong. It's the perfect choice if that's where your character's coming from, but I think the "good guy led astray and riddled with guilt" is a lot more interesting (to my taste). His or her RP could really take off either way.

<<<That is a completely fair and reasonable outlook on things. But where else in the ENTIRE game is there such an important implication that is so regularly dismissed as nothing but non-sense? You'd be hard pressed to find so many Voln-members who solemnly swear that their powers do not come from Liabo arkati (which would be a conflicting issue for evil/Lornonite players). I suppose what it comes down to is not that you don't have a fair point, but that justification is cherry-picked basically ONLY for this society, where the only downside of CoL is "ignored" out of the way. If there were more scenarios where players were forced to confront, or limited, by their choice of society, it might be harder for them to just ignored it, and in THEORY, it might make the highly mechanics-oriented decision to join CoL somewhat less one-sided.>>>

Your point is well taken, and I agree. That said, I think probably the majority of players will still choose a society for mechanical reasons, then adapt their roleplay accordingly. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, provided they RP their choice out. And even then, the degree of RP to be expected from individuals varies greatly.

Not really disagreeing here, just discussing! :)

~ Heathyr and friends

>As you said, there is definitely "something going on" but too often I see CoL members automatically lumped into the "evil" pile, and I think this is wrong. It's the perfect choice if that's where your character's coming from, but I think the "good guy led astray and riddled with guilt" is a lot more interesting (to my taste). His or her RP could really take off either way.

I've never been one to lump CoL members into the evil pile. Actually, it is intelligent "evil" CoL members who bother me the most! Imagine your average Dhe'nar or Faendryl . . . serve no one but themselves, and hate to not be top-dog in a scenario. It is these characters who so readily pick CoL and immediately reject the Poohbah's claims as nonsense . . . yet these are the ones who should be most concerned about that loss. Kastrel would never, ever join CoL, not because he has any ethical qualms, but because he would never so readily put his continued autonomy and existance in jeopardy. Other characters who have those same values and still join CoL cause me the most disappointment.

Truthfully, there is very little in CoL that makes the MEMBER evil. Assuming that the character in question does not reject the penalties outright, the true RP-cost of CoL is the knowledge that the character has put their soul and autonomy at risk and at the whims of an evil organization. Good or evil has very little to do with it, but rather, I would think that the determining personality characteristics which would make a difference would be intelligence, the ability to think ahead, and concern for one's own well being. For instance, someone without the intelligence to comprehend what is at stake may say "So what? I get all these powers!", in other words, embracing the bargain because they can't understand how poor a deal it is. Or maybe they just can't wrap their minds around a bargain that only requires payment in the future . . . you know, the kind of person who is always in credit card debt. Or finally, someone who simply doesn't care about souls or servitude or what have you . . . maybe they are suicidal and don't care if they die, or maybe they just want to kill things brutally. THESE strike me as adequate and "content" CoL members.

For clarification, I never thought that CoL implied that the soul "was gone" or "ceased to exist", but that it was now bound in service to the forces behind the organization. I've seen in the Lich-landing storyline an incredible quickness to assume that "dark bargains of the soul" equate to "soul has vanished into the ether". "What? Crux join with Barnom Slim? He no longer has a soul!" I think that same thinking is what has transformed believed penalty of CoL into what many consider it to be now. Daid's personal example of joining and leaving CoL fits more with this format . . . he contractually bound his soul to the organization, and repeatedly broke the contract and reformed it over and over again. I'm sure the Poohbah thinks of him now as something like a weak-willed addict, who can never stay away!

I think it would be little different than if Voln had a similar clause at the end. "Congratulations! You've truly proven your devotion to the cause, and you have and will continue to accomplish a lot of good. But know this; your soul is now in service to the causes of Voln, Lorminstra, and the forces of Liabo!". As Kastrel, I would read this as "When the final battle comes, we will control you against your will and force you to fight on our side, for good!". Good or evil has a much smaller role in this scenario, and it is far more a matter of losing one's free will.

Thats why I find it so disheartening that the average RP justification for CoL is "The Poohbah doesn't know what he is talking about" or just not even acknowledging it in the first place. ESPECIALLY out of the types of characters I described before . . . these people who cannot abide service, who have to be in charge, if not of everyone, at least of themselves . . . the ones who fear death and slavery. Yet these are the ones who most quickly dismiss the RP costs of CoL, because the mechanical strength of CoL is HIGHLY convenient for backing up their power-oriented roleplay. That bothers me far more than a ditzy nice-guy/girl who joined CoL and just doesn't really comprehend or even pay attention enough to notice. Its actually roleplay appropriate, rather than contradictory. I've had it explained to me that these power-oriented characters are "so arrogant as to deny the possibility", but these characters should also be more paranoid about losing their power, because it is so important to them.

>That said, I think probably the majority of players will still choose a society for mechanical reasons, then adapt their roleplay accordingly.

And I can totally support that if it comes down to 1) Mechanical decision with roleplay penalties leading to -> 2) Roleplay justification for said decision. If I DID make Kastrel join CoL, I would have thought long and hard about how I would have had to justify it, and it certainly wouldn't have been ignoring the problem/dismissing the Poohbah. What bothers me is that the more common path is 1) Mechanical decision with roleplay penalties leading to -> 2) Player ignoring said roleplay penalties entirely.

I'd love to see more ways in which "membership" causes penalties in game . . . certain hunting grounds or locations might be inaccesible, choice NPCs treating you differently, certain enemies being more difficult to hunt. I DON'T want it to be universal . . . no absolute rejection, thats not fun. But maybe 1 in 20 NPCs might have a weird reaction, or maybe a dozen or so Liabo oriented locations in the game might have adverse effects. And by the same token, I'd support benefits too! Maybe a handful of merchants in the game might reveal to you that they are also members with a tug of the ear, and give a discount. Little stuff like that, but good or bad, let the decision make a DIFFERENCE! Anything to stimulate the RP of CoL from a "role-play-neutral mechanical advantage that can be earned and forgotten" to "a controversial club with benefits and downsides that influence you in differing ways throughout the game".

________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg.

>"Walkar says, "Yes, too many kings never work. Especially when there's only one throne. It's a wicked game."
>Shameless plug.

I don't think characters need be explicitly 'evil' to contently Master CoL, and I think in this discussion, we have given some examples of good ways and bad ways to go about it.

I think even flatly ignoring or disbelieving the Poohbah's statements can be perfectly alright, but it depends a lot on the context. If it's out of being naive or not quite straight in the head, that can certainly work for a character in a consistent (or consistently inconsistent) manner. But the more scientific types that want more hard evidence most likely did not try the same approach with the dark assassins (perhaps because as players we are aware that they can be quite real). This is the logical aspect which I take issue with from that approach. If when assigned something more expensive like gold lockpicks, did the character try to test the Council and offer heavy backpacks instead and try to get away with it? Purposely giving the wrong answers to the Inquisitor just to see if he's listening? Blabbing in public the secrets of the Council until assassinated at least once? In real life, I am this type of stubborn person who insists to be convinced by evidence. It's true I don't jump off of bridges to test gravity, but I'd think being assassinated in Elanthia is much less worrisome than the fate of one's soul, for instance. In fact, I don't even think one assassination would be sufficient for the character that is this bent on obtaining evidence (ie: http://xkcd.com/242/), because who knows, it could have just been a coincidence that the Poohbah said something and it happened, not causal. Probably getting assassinated enough times to make it statistically significant out to five sigma may be in order. Hence I remain skeptical that characters who are played to ignore the Poohbah's final remarks owing to lack of evidence insisted to test other aspects of the Council in order to obtain personal evidence.

>Daid's personal example of joining and leaving CoL fits more with this format . . . he contractually bound his soul to the organization, and repeatedly broke the contract and reformed it over and over again. I'm sure the Poohbah thinks of him now as something like a weak-willed addict, who can never stay away!

Hehehe, perhaps he does! Finding a good niche for Kaldonis took a long time as a player (and also a long time for the character within the game), although this was not a twist I considered. A nice piece of insight to how others may view Kaldonis. In my mind, though, he's not evil. Determining his alignment was largely related to the issues with the society, also. If anyone is interested, I will expand upon Kaldonis's view of CoL, but it integrates largely with other things and ends up not being very concise. For other (possibly) apparent contradictions, however, I will note he's a Paradis who summons demons, and a worshipper of Imaera who uses necromancy. I've gotten all these things into a consistent (although zany) framework, but it took dedication and a lot of thought.

If the Council of Light is reviewed and improved, the idea for a branch in every town is interesting. Which towns are still lacking buildings? I'm not sure entirely the most appropriate things that would be needed to continue involvement, but monthly offerings of silvers, mana, and spirit could be quite appropriate.

I'm glad someone else also pointed out some common sense about secret societies. Once when I was doing some work in New Haven, I took pictures of all the Skull and Bones buildings I could find; I wondered how they paid landscapers to take care of the lawn, since seeing such transactions would indicate to a bank teller something about their organization...

I wanted to discuss this myself, but I hesitated because it might not be received very well. I think the "looking drained" revealing too much was probably never revealing, but we also have things like Sacrifice now which drain spirit, and can make a person appear drained. There might also be others. The part I foresee as objectionable is that this mechanism serves as one of the limitations to the powers of CoL. I'm not opposed to limitations of the power as such, just more the impracticality of the method, since it could hardly reveal almost anything. Darkness is also too revealing, but with all the FWI transporter methods, as well as a variety of other means of teleportation, it isn't clear to me that this really reveals very much, either. These are minor details, and of course I'd prefer changes with more real substance, but it's worth trying to take a fresh look at everything.

I do absolutely agree that improving the RP aspects of CoL are likely the number one reason it should be reviewed. And it's hard to imagine how this would be accomplished without making some big changes to some of the fundamentals of the operation. The secrecy and and "Master and forget about it" aspects seem to be the two largest barriers to the RP, both in my mind, and also from what other people are saying.

~daid (player of Kaldonis)

>>Once when I was doing some work in New Haven,

>I hope I'm not the only one that read this as "Sol Haven" the first time and had to go back and take a closer look...

I rather not to break out to many details about my real life or my job on the forums, particularly as it may appear arrogant.

I was in New Haven since I was invited to collaborate on some nuclear physics experiments at Yale...

~daid (player of Kaldonis)

As a matter of personal interest...would ye peeps ever be interested in a "background" or "history of" type of document for CoL?

GM Scribes

<<<As a matter of personal interest...would ye peeps ever be interested in a "background" or "history of" type of document for CoL? GM Scribes>>>

Absolutely! I think that would go a long way towards improving RP centered around the society, even if most of it might be unknown to our characters. It would be ideal if it could touch upon the history and origin without giving too much away. A degree of mystery is part of the society "charm". :)

~ Heathyr