Finally got third rank of punch mastery. Nice effect on MM; initial attack almost always 110+.
>>HR>
The ground melts and churns as an Illoke mystic rises to the surface!
H>stance offen
> punch left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch an Illoke mystic!
You have decent positioning against an Illoke mystic.
UAF: 400 vs UDF: 229 = 1.746 * MM: 112 + d100: 76 = 271
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Wide swing connects with left shin, sweeping it hard to the side!
The Illoke mystic is knocked to the ground!
The Illoke mystic is stunned!
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup kick attack!
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/12/2015 01:07 PM CST
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch an Illoke mystic!
You have decent positioning against an Illoke mystic.
...
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup kick attack!
Note that you didn't get the ambush tier here, so this is a case where it could pay to use that kick opening on the follow up ambush.
You make a precise attempt to punch an Illoke mystic!
You have decent positioning against an Illoke mystic.
...
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup kick attack!
Note that you didn't get the ambush tier here, so this is a case where it could pay to use that kick opening on the follow up ambush.
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/12/2015 02:04 PM CST
>>this is a case where it could pay to use that kick opening on the follow up ambush. <<
I'm not sure about that. The second punch attack, the head shot, is almost always fatal anyway, so an aimed kick (as opposed to a punch) would be extra RT that is usually unnecessary.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
I'm not sure about that. The second punch attack, the head shot, is almost always fatal anyway, so an aimed kick (as opposed to a punch) would be extra RT that is usually unnecessary.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/12/2015 03:11 PM CST
> The second punch attack, the head shot, is almost always fatal anyway, so an aimed kick (as opposed to a punch) would be extra RT that is usually unnecessary.
But is it normally fatal when you fail to get the ambush tier?
But is it normally fatal when you fail to get the ambush tier?
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/12/2015 03:38 PM CST
>>is it normally fatal when you fail to get the ambush tier?<<
My impression is that usually this is the case, although I don't have enough of an example selection to say for certain. (I usually do get the first strike tier up). And the second attack will be from ambush also, giving that attack a tier up to at least good even if the first didn't get one. And since they're flat on the ground and often stunned, their defense also suffers from that.
Once I'm done with this Stronghold task, I'm going to go back and see if I get any better results now against those wretched harbingers.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
My impression is that usually this is the case, although I don't have enough of an example selection to say for certain. (I usually do get the first strike tier up). And the second attack will be from ambush also, giving that attack a tier up to at least good even if the first didn't get one. And since they're flat on the ground and often stunned, their defense also suffers from that.
Once I'm done with this Stronghold task, I'm going to go back and see if I get any better results now against those wretched harbingers.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/13/2015 09:10 AM CST
>Once I'm done with this Stronghold task, I'm going to go back and see if I get any better results now against those wretched harbingers.
Those I'd definitely want excellent. No question but use the kick opening on the second ambush if the first didn't tier up. I reckon excellent is a necessity on them and while one punch beats one kick, one kick beats two punches and a hide.
Those I'd definitely want excellent. No question but use the kick opening on the second ambush if the first didn't tier up. I reckon excellent is a necessity on them and while one punch beats one kick, one kick beats two punches and a hide.
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/13/2015 03:50 PM CST
>>Those I'd definitely want excellent. No question but use the kick opening on the second ambush if the first didn't tier up. I reckon excellent is a necessity on them and while one punch beats one kick, one kick beats two punches and a hide. <<
OK, several questions come to mind.
1) I have 6x handwraps, but only 4x footwraps. Hence, -10 on the UAF for a follow up kick. The better tiering up effect offsets the lower UAF?
2) Grapple openings also occur, though apparently less frequently. Grapple uses the handwrap as the base? This would make f/u grapple a no brainer.
3) Using an unaimed kick would reduce the RT, but might not hit a critical body part. Opinion on doing so?
4) I was anticipating having to attack additional times using punch due to the heavier armor the Harbingers wear. They seemed pretty blind the last time I was there, so I figured I would use Vanish instead of regular hiding. That way I'd never be visible after an attack for a cast of bind. I have enough stamina to do this 4x, which would yield 5 attacks using punch offense. At which point I'd have to rest before looking for another harb. Using a kick when indicated would be better than trying this technique?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OK, several questions come to mind.
1) I have 6x handwraps, but only 4x footwraps. Hence, -10 on the UAF for a follow up kick. The better tiering up effect offsets the lower UAF?
2) Grapple openings also occur, though apparently less frequently. Grapple uses the handwrap as the base? This would make f/u grapple a no brainer.
3) Using an unaimed kick would reduce the RT, but might not hit a critical body part. Opinion on doing so?
4) I was anticipating having to attack additional times using punch due to the heavier armor the Harbingers wear. They seemed pretty blind the last time I was there, so I figured I would use Vanish instead of regular hiding. That way I'd never be visible after an attack for a cast of bind. I have enough stamina to do this 4x, which would yield 5 attacks using punch offense. At which point I'd have to rest before looking for another harb. Using a kick when indicated would be better than trying this technique?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/15/2015 06:31 AM CST
>1) I have 6x handwraps, but only 4x footwraps. Hence, -10 on the UAF for a follow up kick. The better tiering up effect offsets the lower UAF?
Easily. -10 on UAF is about -2 on the endroll against a harb. Excellent rather than good is worth a whole lot more than 2 on the endroll. Its your punchmastery, which will be worth up to 20 on the endroll that might make a difference.
>2) Grapple openings also occur, though apparently less frequently. Grapple uses the handwrap as the base? This would make f/u grapple a no brainer.
Yes, I'd use the grapple openings as well as kick ones if still at decent after the first ambush. Kick is a lot more deadly than grapple though, so its not as much a no-brainer as you might be thinking.
>3) Using an unaimed kick would reduce the RT, but might not hit a critical body part. Opinion on doing so?
Only if that second really is important which will depend on the context of the particular combat. It makes a lot more sense to use unaimed attacks with UAC than with weapons, because torso hits are a lot more deadly, but limb hits are common enough on a harb that I wouldn't do it as routine when trying for a kill. I tend to do it on the initial punch if I can't reach the head, or the kill shot if the critter doesn't have limbs. e.g. I'm always opening with a head punch on Plane 4 because it makes a huge difference to whether I can rehide in front of the critter, but if I stun a crawler with decent position, can hide on it and get a kick opening, I am going to use that unaimed because it doesn't have limbs. On Plane 3 my first shot on n'ecares is punch leg for the knockdown, on avrens its punch head for the kill, and on warlocks its an unaimed punch for the chance of getting lucky and actually hitting the head.
>4) I was anticipating having to attack additional times using punch due to the heavier armor the Harbingers wear. They seemed pretty blind the last time I was there, so I figured I would use Vanish instead of regular hiding. That way I'd never be visible after an attack for a cast of bind. I have enough stamina to do this 4x, which would yield 5 attacks using punch offense. At which point I'd have to rest before looking for another harb. Using a kick when indicated would be better than trying this technique?
One kick beats 2 punches and a Vanish by a lot if you are stamina constrained but still by a little even if you aren't.
If you didn't have punchmastery you might find it paid to use kick for every attempted kill shot on a harb, not just when you expected the kick to be at higher tier due to the lower number of times you needed extra kicks compared to extra punches.
Easily. -10 on UAF is about -2 on the endroll against a harb. Excellent rather than good is worth a whole lot more than 2 on the endroll. Its your punchmastery, which will be worth up to 20 on the endroll that might make a difference.
>2) Grapple openings also occur, though apparently less frequently. Grapple uses the handwrap as the base? This would make f/u grapple a no brainer.
Yes, I'd use the grapple openings as well as kick ones if still at decent after the first ambush. Kick is a lot more deadly than grapple though, so its not as much a no-brainer as you might be thinking.
>3) Using an unaimed kick would reduce the RT, but might not hit a critical body part. Opinion on doing so?
Only if that second really is important which will depend on the context of the particular combat. It makes a lot more sense to use unaimed attacks with UAC than with weapons, because torso hits are a lot more deadly, but limb hits are common enough on a harb that I wouldn't do it as routine when trying for a kill. I tend to do it on the initial punch if I can't reach the head, or the kill shot if the critter doesn't have limbs. e.g. I'm always opening with a head punch on Plane 4 because it makes a huge difference to whether I can rehide in front of the critter, but if I stun a crawler with decent position, can hide on it and get a kick opening, I am going to use that unaimed because it doesn't have limbs. On Plane 3 my first shot on n'ecares is punch leg for the knockdown, on avrens its punch head for the kill, and on warlocks its an unaimed punch for the chance of getting lucky and actually hitting the head.
>4) I was anticipating having to attack additional times using punch due to the heavier armor the Harbingers wear. They seemed pretty blind the last time I was there, so I figured I would use Vanish instead of regular hiding. That way I'd never be visible after an attack for a cast of bind. I have enough stamina to do this 4x, which would yield 5 attacks using punch offense. At which point I'd have to rest before looking for another harb. Using a kick when indicated would be better than trying this technique?
One kick beats 2 punches and a Vanish by a lot if you are stamina constrained but still by a little even if you aren't.
If you didn't have punchmastery you might find it paid to use kick for every attempted kill shot on a harb, not just when you expected the kick to be at higher tier due to the lower number of times you needed extra kicks compared to extra punches.
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/19/2015 05:18 PM CST
This probably represents ideal results, but I'll take it. Was playing tag with this harbinger for 5 minutes; she was always accompanied by 2 troll kings. Also, she knew i was there and had spirit strike in force. I wasn't going to play with her until I could get her alone. A good illustration of how MM is more significant than UAAF:UDF ratio. Note: Vanish is great but needs to be less stamina intensive.
>>H>e
[Darkstone, A Dark Tunnel]
Scattered debris covers the floor and you find yourself laboring to keep a steady foothold. A draft of fetid air rolls in from some unseen direction. You also see a Sheruvian harbinger.
Obvious exits: east, west
Roundtime: 2 sec.
HR>
The guiding force leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
H>
A Sheruvian harbinger searches around nervously.
A Sheruvian harbinger hisses an evil incantation.
H>stance offen
> punch left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a Sheruvian harbinger!
You have good positioning against a Sheruvian harbinger.
UAF: 401 vs UDF: 437 = 0.917 * MM: 111 + d100: 63 = 164
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
Wide swing connects with left shin, sweeping it hard to the side!
The Sheruvian harbinger is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a Sheruvian harbinger!
You have excellent positioning against a Sheruvian harbinger.
UAF: 401 vs UDF: 430 = 0.932 * MM: 116 + d100: 25 = 133
... and hit for 41 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The Sheruvian harbinger releases a horrible wail then lies still.
The very powerful look leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The white light leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The deep blue glow leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The brilliant aura fades away from a Sheruvian harbinger.
The dim aura fades from around a Sheruvian harbinger.
The light blue glow leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
A Sheruvian harbinger appears less confident.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>>H>e
[Darkstone, A Dark Tunnel]
Scattered debris covers the floor and you find yourself laboring to keep a steady foothold. A draft of fetid air rolls in from some unseen direction. You also see a Sheruvian harbinger.
Obvious exits: east, west
Roundtime: 2 sec.
HR>
The guiding force leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
H>
A Sheruvian harbinger searches around nervously.
A Sheruvian harbinger hisses an evil incantation.
H>stance offen
> punch left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a Sheruvian harbinger!
You have good positioning against a Sheruvian harbinger.
UAF: 401 vs UDF: 437 = 0.917 * MM: 111 + d100: 63 = 164
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
Wide swing connects with left shin, sweeping it hard to the side!
The Sheruvian harbinger is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a Sheruvian harbinger!
You have excellent positioning against a Sheruvian harbinger.
UAF: 401 vs UDF: 430 = 0.932 * MM: 116 + d100: 25 = 133
... and hit for 41 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The Sheruvian harbinger releases a horrible wail then lies still.
The very powerful look leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The white light leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The deep blue glow leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
The brilliant aura fades away from a Sheruvian harbinger.
The dim aura fades from around a Sheruvian harbinger.
The light blue glow leaves a Sheruvian harbinger.
A Sheruvian harbinger appears less confident.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
CLUNK24963
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/19/2015 05:37 PM CST
Ok ... so ... I get it now
cman vanish is a no RT hide.
Sold!
I have a rogue who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
I have a monk who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
I have a ranger who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
Assuming, of course, that they all meet qualifications and prerequisites.
ROBLAR
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/19/2015 08:56 PM CST
You mean you have:
<I have a rogue who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.>
Rogue only cman.
<I have a rogue who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.>
Rogue only cman.
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/19/2015 09:40 PM CST
>>cman info
Guennwhfar, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 5
Divert divert 3
Vanish vanish 3
Punch Mastery punchmastery 3
Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 3<<
Vanish lets you hide regardless of RT, assuming that you have all three ranks. Knowing fewer ranks has some RT restrictions. Being stunned, webbed, held etc. prevents this from being used. Prerequisite for learning even 1 rank of vanish is 4 ranks of shadow mastery. Hiding is not automatic; your usual skill in S&H is taken into account. Stamina cost is high, 30 per attempt for me. Vanish can fail against highly perceptive critters, like animals or non-corporeal undead. Despite its limitations, however, it is quite useful in many instances.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Guennwhfar, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 5
Divert divert 3
Vanish vanish 3
Punch Mastery punchmastery 3
Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 3<<
Vanish lets you hide regardless of RT, assuming that you have all three ranks. Knowing fewer ranks has some RT restrictions. Being stunned, webbed, held etc. prevents this from being used. Prerequisite for learning even 1 rank of vanish is 4 ranks of shadow mastery. Hiding is not automatic; your usual skill in S&H is taken into account. Stamina cost is high, 30 per attempt for me. Vanish can fail against highly perceptive critters, like animals or non-corporeal undead. Despite its limitations, however, it is quite useful in many instances.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/19/2015 09:45 PM CST
>>cman vanish is a no RT hide.<<
It does not, however, remove preexisting RT. I still had to wait out the 4 second RT from the aimed punch ambush here, it's just that I was able to go into hiding while doing so, preventing the harbinger from doing something annoying, like binding me. If I had been hit with some maneuvers and gotten 12 seconds or so of RT, I'd have been able to hide, but would still have to wait that time out before doing any other actions.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
It does not, however, remove preexisting RT. I still had to wait out the 4 second RT from the aimed punch ambush here, it's just that I was able to go into hiding while doing so, preventing the harbinger from doing something annoying, like binding me. If I had been hit with some maneuvers and gotten 12 seconds or so of RT, I'd have been able to hide, but would still have to wait that time out before doing any other actions.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/20/2015 08:25 AM CST
>I have a rogue who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
Its a mid to high level thing because you need a lot of CMPs to put to Shadow mastery first, and you also want the stamina to make good use of it. You shouldn't take much notice of Throggs mutterings about its stamina cost. There's a world of difference between the stamina of a dark elf (worst in game) and a dwarf (best in game). No rogue should reach cap without it, but you might go a lot of the way without it if you are only 1x Cman trained.
>I have a ranger who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
Rangers have things like mass calm and natures fury to do the main job that vanish does. Calm the lot and then pick them off one at a time rather than vanishing on them as you pick them off one at a time.
>I have a monk who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
The closest monk equivalent is krynch, but that only does the job if you are solo and the critters are feeble.
Its a mid to high level thing because you need a lot of CMPs to put to Shadow mastery first, and you also want the stamina to make good use of it. You shouldn't take much notice of Throggs mutterings about its stamina cost. There's a world of difference between the stamina of a dark elf (worst in game) and a dwarf (best in game). No rogue should reach cap without it, but you might go a lot of the way without it if you are only 1x Cman trained.
>I have a ranger who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
Rangers have things like mass calm and natures fury to do the main job that vanish does. Calm the lot and then pick them off one at a time rather than vanishing on them as you pick them off one at a time.
>I have a monk who is going to add that to his list of things to learn.
The closest monk equivalent is krynch, but that only does the job if you are solo and the critters are feeble.
SOURCE
Re: Lean mean punching machine
02/20/2015 04:42 PM CST
Silent strike needs to be compatible with this UAC stuff. It's why I couldn't stick with it.
WHITEC77
Re: Lean mean punching machine
07/19/2016 03:27 AM CDT
I see a lot of posts about how bad a monk is compared to a hiding rogue using uac. I've hunted with each and I can tell you that a monk is much more capable. I have the stamina and moc and ambush to kill most critters with one attack. doesn't matter what stance they are in. currently I'm 91 and I take out 100's with no issue. single or a group. when hunting bandits and such with others I have to slow down so I don't kill everything so fast and be the only one done waiting on the others to finish their bandits. I don't hide and always open uac. my slowest would be 3 hits, I never use jab as an opening attack because it is useless in my experience, but when I use moc it is used and I'm always at excellent by the time it ends and very rarely is the critter not dead. I hunt the best the lands have to offer with the best and have no problem being competitive. in the 3 seconds it takes to hide normally I've already killed the critter. there are some issues to monks I agree, but being able to kill is not one of them.
Githros
RATHBONER
Re: Lean mean punching machine
07/19/2016 05:06 AM CDT
Try never using mstrike and see how they compare. Those posts are from when there was no UAC mstrike.
WHITEC77
Re: Lean mean punching machine
07/20/2016 10:33 PM CDT
yeah without moc it sucked especially with a group. I did tier nicely and still didn't open with jab back then but I was usually able to take critters out by the third hit. Moc has really helped. And I don't see how being barehanded doesn't allow two hits with training in two weapon combat when the truth is if you can swing two weapons, there should be no reason a skilled fighter cannot swing two unarmed hits as that would surely be easier than using two weapons.
