While TWC training doesn't give you a second unarmed strike, I understand that it gives you a better DS (assuming the left hand is open) by allowing the off hand to parry. 1 rank supposedly triggers this effect, but by how much? Also, the monk folder seems to suggest 0.5x training in this skill as an optimal aiming point if all you want is more DS. How does that compare to 1x? 2x?
Right now my rogue using a 6x buckler, with 2 ranks of shielded brawling so far, but she often stows the shield to get a better strike result. Would 0.5x training in TWC be more benefit to her DS, instead of going for three more shielded brawling ranks?
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
THROGG
RATHBONER
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/27/2014 06:23 PM CDT
I reckon you should get 3x dodge before taking TWC beyond 1 rank if you are going without a shield. At low level the 0.5x bonus gives TWC an advantage against melee attacks, but against bolts, and in offensive stance at higher levels, you are losing out. Its never worth going past 0.5x TWC for defense until you have full 3x in dodge. (I am currently 2.5x dodge and 1 rank TWC and only ever used a shield for stunman reps)
THROGG
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/27/2014 07:15 PM CDT
I am a few ranks under 2.5x dodge. At this point, TWC is a lot cheaper than more dodge, which is why I was considering it. And, of course, if I am facing a foe that can bolt, I'll be using a shield; I have 3 ranks of deflect elements.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
TYVER
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/29/2014 02:29 PM CDT
Aren't sais suppose to be the brawling version of an edged main gauche as far as twc goes so wouldn't a sai in off hand provide more DS with extra twc
THROGG
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/29/2014 07:15 PM CDT
If I recall, an offhand sai does indeed provide an extra +10 parry DS. Unfortunately, they are not one of the brawling weapons that are compatible with the UAC system.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/30/2014 05:22 AM CDT
>If I recall, an offhand sai does indeed provide an extra +10 parry DS. Unfortunately, they are not one of the brawling weapons that are compatible with the UAC system.
You get exactly the same bonus with empty hands.
You get exactly the same bonus with empty hands.
THROGG
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/30/2014 01:54 PM CDT
>>You get exactly the same bonus with empty hands.<<
That's new, I think. Was this implemented a part of the UAC system? I don't recall an empty hand giving parry DS before this.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
That's new, I think. Was this implemented a part of the UAC system? I don't recall an empty hand giving parry DS before this.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
SPYRIDONM1
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/30/2014 03:29 PM CDT
>That's new, I think. Was this implemented a part of the UAC system? I don't recall an empty hand giving parry DS before this. -- THROGG
.
With a minimum of one TWC rank but less than 0.5x ranks per level you receive the +5 DS bonus. With 0.5x ranks per level the bonus is +15.
The bonuses are added to the TWC (off-hand) parry DS formula:
Stance Modifiers:
The above is in addition to your normal one hand parry DS.
Mark
| http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Unarmed%20Combat/view/322 |
| >An empty left hand now provides parry DS similar to that of a main gauche or sai, for those characters trained in brawling and two weapon combat. -- FINROS |
.
| http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Unarmed%20Combat/view/436 |
| >This wasn't intended. The +15 DS bonus for a brawler with an open left was intended for people who dedicate continued training to Two Weapon Combat. We've updated the formula to require a minimum of 0.5x training in Two Weapon Combat before the +15 "main gauche or sai" DS bonus kicks in. One rank of TWC will still initiate the open left hand parry DS formula, but the immediate DS increase from one rank won't be as staggering. -- OSCURO |
With a minimum of one TWC rank but less than 0.5x ranks per level you receive the +5 DS bonus. With 0.5x ranks per level the bonus is +15.
The bonuses are added to the TWC (off-hand) parry DS formula:
| ((TWC Ranks + trunc(STR/4) + trunc(DEX/4) + (enchant bonus/2)) * Stance Mod |
Stance Modifiers:
| STANCE | MODIFIER | ||
| OFF: | 0.10 | ||
| ADV: | 0.15 | ||
| FOR: | 0.20 | ||
| NEU: | 0.25 | ||
| GUA: | 0.30 | ||
| DEF: | 0.35 |
The above is in addition to your normal one hand parry DS.
Mark
THROGG
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/30/2014 10:54 PM CDT
OK, so this stuff is only a bit over 2 years old; that's what I meant by "new". OK, I have a rogue who is fully trained in brawling and also 2x in TWC (she will often ambush using twin sais). What is her DS modifier if her left hand is open? Does it increase beyond 0.5x TWC skill?
Also, I just noticed this sentence on the link that was posted ...
>> A training regimen of 2x ranks per level in the appropriate weapon or shield skill will fully eliminate the additional penalty, <<
My other rogue, who uses UAC for most attacks, has been getting shielded brawler training. Does the above statement mean that, if she hits 2x in shield skill, she won't need shielded brawler skill at all?
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me.
Also, I just noticed this sentence on the link that was posted ...
>> A training regimen of 2x ranks per level in the appropriate weapon or shield skill will fully eliminate the additional penalty, <<
My other rogue, who uses UAC for most attacks, has been getting shielded brawler training. Does the above statement mean that, if she hits 2x in shield skill, she won't need shielded brawler skill at all?
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me.
ROBLAR
Re: UAC and TWC training
09/30/2014 11:14 PM CDT
<Does the above statement mean that, if she hits 2x in shield skill, she won't need shielded brawler skill at all? >
Additional penalty, not the base penalty.
I am 3x in shield use, but while the additional undertraining penalty is removed, there is still a base penalty for holding an item(s) in your hand(s) while performing unarmed combat.
So keep up the Shielded Brawler manuever training if that item is a shield. Rank 5 should reduce the MM penalty.
Ex (I do not train in Shield Brawler):
You make a precise attempt to punch a kobold!
Your attack is hindered by holding a massive tsark skin covered warshield!
You have good positioning against a kobold.
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Swift, repeated blows fracture several vertebrae over the kobold's back!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You slide your skin covered warshield deftly over one shoulder and it settles comfortably into place.
You make a precise attempt to punch a rolton!
You have good positioning against a rolton.
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Rotating backhand cleanly snaps tibia!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Additional penalty, not the base penalty.
I am 3x in shield use, but while the additional undertraining penalty is removed, there is still a base penalty for holding an item(s) in your hand(s) while performing unarmed combat.
So keep up the Shielded Brawler manuever training if that item is a shield. Rank 5 should reduce the MM penalty.
Ex (I do not train in Shield Brawler):
You make a precise attempt to punch a kobold!
Your attack is hindered by holding a massive tsark skin covered warshield!
You have good positioning against a kobold.
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Swift, repeated blows fracture several vertebrae over the kobold's back!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You slide your skin covered warshield deftly over one shoulder and it settles comfortably into place.
You make a precise attempt to punch a rolton!
You have good positioning against a rolton.
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Rotating backhand cleanly snaps tibia!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
SPYRIDONM1
Re: UAC and TWC training
10/01/2014 01:58 AM CDT
>OK, so this stuff is only a bit over 2 years old; that's what I meant by "new". OK, I have a rogue who is fully trained in brawling and also 2x in TWC (she will often ambush using twin sais). What is her DS modifier if her left hand is open? Does it increase beyond 0.5x TWC skill?
The formula uses your training ranks in TWC. The 0.5x ranks per level is an arbitrary, minimum training, requirement for the +15 (sai equivalent) bonus. So, you will not lose DS with an empty left hand. In fact, if you wear enchanted handwraps that have a higher enchant bonus than the sai, you may actually have a higher DS with an open left hand.
>> A training regimen of 2x ranks per level in the appropriate weapon or shield skill will fully eliminate the additional penalty, <<
>My other rogue, who uses UAC for most attacks, has been getting shielded brawler training. Does the above statement mean that, if she hits 2x in shield skill, she won't need shielded brawler skill at all?
From Roblar's post:
With shield and minimum of 2x training
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
Without shield
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
Notice the MM difference of 17 (98 - 81). This is the medium shield penalty with 2x training. Shielded brawler will further reduce this penalty by 2 per rank. With 5 ranks of shielded brawler and 2x shield training the MM penalty when holding a medium shield is 7.
All held items have an MM penalty of 15 per hand except for weapons and shields. See the MM article on KP for a detailed explanation of the weapon and shield penalties.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/MM
Mark
The formula uses your training ranks in TWC. The 0.5x ranks per level is an arbitrary, minimum training, requirement for the +15 (sai equivalent) bonus. So, you will not lose DS with an empty left hand. In fact, if you wear enchanted handwraps that have a higher enchant bonus than the sai, you may actually have a higher DS with an open left hand.
>> A training regimen of 2x ranks per level in the appropriate weapon or shield skill will fully eliminate the additional penalty, <<
>My other rogue, who uses UAC for most attacks, has been getting shielded brawler training. Does the above statement mean that, if she hits 2x in shield skill, she won't need shielded brawler skill at all?
From Roblar's post:
With shield and minimum of 2x training
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
Without shield
UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
Notice the MM difference of 17 (98 - 81). This is the medium shield penalty with 2x training. Shielded brawler will further reduce this penalty by 2 per rank. With 5 ranks of shielded brawler and 2x shield training the MM penalty when holding a medium shield is 7.
All held items have an MM penalty of 15 per hand except for weapons and shields. See the MM article on KP for a detailed explanation of the weapon and shield penalties.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/MM
Mark
IZDEN
Re: UAC and TWC training
10/04/2014 07:59 PM CDT
Is there a randomness to MM? If so, does it taper to nil at greater level difference?
~Izden
<<From Roblar's post:
<<With shield and minimum of 2x training
<<UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
<<Without shield
<<UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
<<Notice the MM difference of 17 (98 - 81). This is the medium shield penalty with 2x training. Shielded brawler will further reduce this penalty by 2 per rank. With 5 ranks of shielded brawler and 2x shield training the MM penalty when holding a medium shield is 7.
<<All held items have an MM penalty of 15 per hand except for weapons and shields. See the MM article on KP for a detailed explanation of the weapon and shield penalties.
<<http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/MM
<<Mark
~Izden
<<From Roblar's post:
<<With shield and minimum of 2x training
<<UAF: 626 vs UDF: 54 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 81 + d100: 15 = 177
<<Without shield
<<UAF: 626 vs UDF: 37 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 51 = 247
<<Notice the MM difference of 17 (98 - 81). This is the medium shield penalty with 2x training. Shielded brawler will further reduce this penalty by 2 per rank. With 5 ranks of shielded brawler and 2x shield training the MM penalty when holding a medium shield is 7.
<<All held items have an MM penalty of 15 per hand except for weapons and shields. See the MM article on KP for a detailed explanation of the weapon and shield penalties.
<<http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/MM
<<Mark
RATHBONER
Re: UAC and TWC training
10/05/2014 04:39 AM CDT
>Is there a randomness to MM? If so, does it taper to nil at greater level difference?
Yes and yes. Randomness in MM follows the same pattern as EBP. If the critter has virtually no chance to EBP you, there's virtually no randomness to MM and if the critter has a good chance to EBP you, there is significant randomness.
Yes and yes. Randomness in MM follows the same pattern as EBP. If the critter has virtually no chance to EBP you, there's virtually no randomness to MM and if the critter has a good chance to EBP you, there is significant randomness.
