So I've been trying a new hunting style using a two handed instrument and brawling, and while I have decent defenses due to excessive dodge training, it seems like offensively the MM penalty is killing my combat viability. I know that the MM penalty for weapons and shields was adjusted so that it can be trained down based on weapon skill, I was hoping something similar could be done for instruments, based on our skill with that type of instrument. I'm not sure how much if at all holding an instrument is affecting my brawling defenses but if our playing skill could mitigate that as well I wouldn't complain.

Archales

Yeah the kick part seems a no brainer, my reasoning for hand related uac is that I don't see a harp being any more of a hinderance in a brawl than a shield or two handed weapon would be.

Archales

I only play two instruments the flute and the tambourine, and as a competitive fencer I have to disagree with the notion that a weapon isn't being used constantly. As far as the gs bard mechanics go, it seems more like we strum a few bars every fifteen to twenty seconds rather than a constant strum, maybe reflecting a slower pace I tend to associate with old songs. Given that vision of bard playing I don't think it hard to imagine taking a breath to say something or punch before continuing to the next verse. A tambourine seems even easier to use brawling, hell if you sharpened the cybals it could probably double as a knuckle-duster.

Just musing really,
Archales

>>I know that the MM penalty for weapons and shields was adjusted so that it can be trained down based on weapon skill

Those penalties can be trained down but only to a minimum of 15, which I believe is the same penalty you'd get for holding an item(instrument) in your hand anyway.

Music and martial arts are my life. Literally. I'm a professional musician and play multiple instruments, specializing in sax, flute and other woodwinds, but including guitar, drums, keys, percussion, etc. I've been practicing martial arts nearly as long, about 30 years or so, in a number of styles including shaolin chuan, mi zong luo han, yang style tai chi, arnis, judo, and a smattering of others.

When it comes to empty-hand fighting, just about anything you can't actually use as a weapon is going to be a major hindrance. Most musical instruments cannot be played to any degree at all while engaging in combat. You're either fighting, or you're playing. I could see, perhaps, using only your feet (kicking) while playing a percussion instrument, or maybe--although this is a stretch--while playing a stringed instrument. But any such fighting would surely be at a penalty. It would be quite impossible to continually play any wind instrument, due to the breath control required. And honestly, any instrument requires far too much fine motor control to maintain while engaging in violent action.

Most instruments are far too fragile to be used as weapons, but there are exceptions. I actually own a 6-foot long staff flute I had custom made. The medieval shawm was often sturdy enough to be used as a club, and indeed may have been required for self-defense when played too long. ;) Harps are also pretty hefty instruments, and could probably survive a few blows to the column. But again...if you're actually playing the instrument, you're not using it as a weapon. It's an either/or proposition, really.

While bard loresongs are generally considered to be an on/off affair, instrument messaging suggests playing is a continuous action. As a player of a brawling bard, I'd love to be able to train away instrument MM hindrance, but I don't see any real-world justification for it. The mere fact we can fight while playing is already a stretch, so I can't see gaining any ground there.

~ Heathyr and friends

I hope I didn't give the impression that I wanted to use the instrument as some sort of tool in combat, I merely floated the suggestion that play skill reduce the penalty for holding an instrument.

Since this isn't real life, my bard is 100+ years old and capable of both talking, and grabbing items while playing currently, so I'm not sure where the continuous playing idea is based other than the imagination but mechanically that isn't how it works. I would imagine in the course of playing any style of instrument for that long, full concentration would not in anyway be required, that's like saying a concert pianist must look at the keys while they play. If you can walk and play an instrument I don't see why you couldn't duck, dodge, or run well enough for it not to hinder you in combat.

I would concede that the penalty for a two handed instrument should be much higher than for a percussion instrument, which really shouldn't hurt your unarmed combat ability much if at all.

I don't believe the point is moot because bards can only 1x mental lores and outside of pure bards(which are not and have never been what this profession was designed around).The benefits of telepathy lore outstrip the benefits of getting 75 ranks of manipulation lore for most bards who use a weapon and don't always hunt solo. Which means even with an even split of 55 telepathy, 45 manipulation lore there is still incentive to try and use an instrument for the extra DF.

If instruments/weapons/items get the same penalty then please ignore my initial request, I just thought the MM penalty was higher using an instrument than it is using a weapon.

Archales