Howdy,
Long time DR player, trying to figure things out over here. One thing that flummoxes me is spell training. Currently level 22. Not sure where I should be placing my spells.
I am TWC. (Have a lightning-flaring backsword and a vultite rapier that work well for me so far). I typically use 1001 to soften things up, 1005 to plow through or handle swarms, add Sigil Off/Def is needed. I haven't been using 1012 at all, except when I get an undead bounty. I use 1011 a lot for foraging tasks. I am in GOS and am totally stuck trying to raze my first warcamp.
I have usually been going hunting only when I get Dreaven'd up -- that is, FULLY spelled up. I'm still not so hot managing my abilities on their own (i.e, I get killed because I get cocky, heh).
I have NO clue what to do with Lores. Currently at 11 ranks ML:Telepathy for the renewal duration bonus.
Any thoughts, help, suggestions? Mainly looking for:
1. What should my spell training goals be for the near-term and near-long term?
2. What should I be doing with lores?!
Best,
Rinth/SEAN
SLHUBB77
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 02:51 PM CST
I you search through the So You Want To Be A Bard folder I think Krakii has some excellent advice which really helped my bard.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 03:13 PM CST
I couldn't find the post(s) so figure you'll have the same challenges. Here are my off-line notes that I have saved that seem pretty relevant to your question:
Krakii advice
- Start/stop Fortitude, and set a highlight string to the wearing-off text so you know that you need to start/stop it again. This costs you 3 mana as a straight cost.
- Sing Kai's Song/1007, because you're going to be a weapon-swinger. Live with that. Note that your AS goes up if you train in ML:Telepathy... which you're already doing, to get the longer Renewal cycle anyhow. This may well be your only Renewal cost for many levels.
- Lullabye, Lullabye, Lullabye. If your INFluence is good--hellow, Enhancives!--you can rely on everything you face being on the ground for at least the first swing. Straight 5 mana cost.
I think what I recall doing was using Valor/1010 until I hit 19th level, at which point I dropped it and used Mirrors/1019 instead. Only after I had another bunch more levels--with their attendant renewal duration and mana increases--did I start to run both at once. And like I said, probably in the 30s to start running Luck/1006.
+++
I typically did not bother with Luck/1006 until late-20s or more, depending on whether I wanted to run it while in the Warfarer Mine or not. Usually "not", as I recall. It just isn't necessary. Later on? When there's more maneuvers? Sure, but by that time you have more mana anyhow.
Remember in all of my statements that I made the first 25-ish levels as a GSIII pure Elf, so my CHArisma (now INFluence) was five points of bonus even higher than it is. Also, I took the unusual step of starting it high, rather than tanking it and letting it grow through the levels as is usually done.
Effects:
1) My Medley lasted a long frickin' time. I routinely had a duration equal to that of Bards 8-15 levels higher than me. INFluence bonus counts for +3s of Medley duration, and since I was in the +30-range from the start, my Medley lasted forever.
2) Until you are 30th level, you have essentially no use for ML:Manipulation ranks. You simply will not be all that terribly good at Purifying gems, no matter how many Lore ranks you put into it, so don't waste the time: get ML:Telepathy ranks instead, and each of those is +2s of duration.
3) That said, at 30th you absolutely want those 15 ranks of ML:Manipulation ranks. Yes, Song of Disruption/1030 really IS that good. But you were asking about at lower levels, so that's a different discussion.
4) If you have a high INFluence bonus, essentially everything is vulnerable to Lullabye. What do you need protection for, if you can cast once and then beat the thing to death while it's lying on the ground? (And it mostly stayed there, because the first swing would stun/prone [like sever a leg]/kill it.)
5) Sonic Weapon Song/1012 has the best flares in the game. EL:Air ranks give you the chance to get a second one, of the best flares in the game. Since Elemental Lore ranks are just as cheap as Mental Lore ranks, if you choose to use this weapon you have no reason why you would not want to get as many of them as possible. (And at higher levels, they help your Tonis Song/1035, too.) BUT, of course, you don't really have the mana to use Sonic Equipment Songs until you're higher level anyhow.
All of these points are now made even more juicy with Enhancives. Get an INFluence boost, crank up your renew duration (and your Lullabye effectiveness). Get ML:Telepathy boost, crank up your duration (and your AS from Kai's Song/1007).
In all seriousness, from 5th to about 23rd level my Bard had mind-numbingly dull tactics:
- if it had a weapon and/or shield, lead with some Vibration Chant/1002 and may be get a cheap (2 mana is less than even the 5 of Lullabye) stun or prone or kill, but worst case I do it out of the higher DF of weapon vs. had, or give it -20DS from losing the shield;
- after that, or as the first cast against a non-tool-using species, Lullabye/1005 (because it would work, with my CHArisma/INFluence) and wait out the three seconds castRT before
- walking over and thrashing it soundly about the head neck and shoulders until it was dead.
I can say that Krolvin Warriors & Warfarers in the mine were among my favorites, because they frequently had both weapon & shield, so 4 mana turned them into puddin'-pops. By that time I was working on ML:Manipulation ranks, looking ahead to 30th level, so I quite frequently had excellent results (stunned, maimed, dead) from the exploding items.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
Krakii advice
- Start/stop Fortitude, and set a highlight string to the wearing-off text so you know that you need to start/stop it again. This costs you 3 mana as a straight cost.
- Sing Kai's Song/1007, because you're going to be a weapon-swinger. Live with that. Note that your AS goes up if you train in ML:Telepathy... which you're already doing, to get the longer Renewal cycle anyhow. This may well be your only Renewal cost for many levels.
- Lullabye, Lullabye, Lullabye. If your INFluence is good--hellow, Enhancives!--you can rely on everything you face being on the ground for at least the first swing. Straight 5 mana cost.
I think what I recall doing was using Valor/1010 until I hit 19th level, at which point I dropped it and used Mirrors/1019 instead. Only after I had another bunch more levels--with their attendant renewal duration and mana increases--did I start to run both at once. And like I said, probably in the 30s to start running Luck/1006.
+++
I typically did not bother with Luck/1006 until late-20s or more, depending on whether I wanted to run it while in the Warfarer Mine or not. Usually "not", as I recall. It just isn't necessary. Later on? When there's more maneuvers? Sure, but by that time you have more mana anyhow.
Remember in all of my statements that I made the first 25-ish levels as a GSIII pure Elf, so my CHArisma (now INFluence) was five points of bonus even higher than it is. Also, I took the unusual step of starting it high, rather than tanking it and letting it grow through the levels as is usually done.
Effects:
1) My Medley lasted a long frickin' time. I routinely had a duration equal to that of Bards 8-15 levels higher than me. INFluence bonus counts for +3s of Medley duration, and since I was in the +30-range from the start, my Medley lasted forever.
2) Until you are 30th level, you have essentially no use for ML:Manipulation ranks. You simply will not be all that terribly good at Purifying gems, no matter how many Lore ranks you put into it, so don't waste the time: get ML:Telepathy ranks instead, and each of those is +2s of duration.
3) That said, at 30th you absolutely want those 15 ranks of ML:Manipulation ranks. Yes, Song of Disruption/1030 really IS that good. But you were asking about at lower levels, so that's a different discussion.
4) If you have a high INFluence bonus, essentially everything is vulnerable to Lullabye. What do you need protection for, if you can cast once and then beat the thing to death while it's lying on the ground? (And it mostly stayed there, because the first swing would stun/prone [like sever a leg]/kill it.)
5) Sonic Weapon Song/1012 has the best flares in the game. EL:Air ranks give you the chance to get a second one, of the best flares in the game. Since Elemental Lore ranks are just as cheap as Mental Lore ranks, if you choose to use this weapon you have no reason why you would not want to get as many of them as possible. (And at higher levels, they help your Tonis Song/1035, too.) BUT, of course, you don't really have the mana to use Sonic Equipment Songs until you're higher level anyhow.
All of these points are now made even more juicy with Enhancives. Get an INFluence boost, crank up your renew duration (and your Lullabye effectiveness). Get ML:Telepathy boost, crank up your duration (and your AS from Kai's Song/1007).
In all seriousness, from 5th to about 23rd level my Bard had mind-numbingly dull tactics:
- if it had a weapon and/or shield, lead with some Vibration Chant/1002 and may be get a cheap (2 mana is less than even the 5 of Lullabye) stun or prone or kill, but worst case I do it out of the higher DF of weapon vs. had, or give it -20DS from losing the shield;
- after that, or as the first cast against a non-tool-using species, Lullabye/1005 (because it would work, with my CHArisma/INFluence) and wait out the three seconds castRT before
- walking over and thrashing it soundly about the head neck and shoulders until it was dead.
I can say that Krolvin Warriors & Warfarers in the mine were among my favorites, because they frequently had both weapon & shield, so 4 mana turned them into puddin'-pops. By that time I was working on ML:Manipulation ranks, looking ahead to 30th level, so I quite frequently had excellent results (stunned, maimed, dead) from the exploding items.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
LUXELLE
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 04:08 PM CST
First, let me tell you what I did for spells. I train some spell circle or another every level. Mister Taluric suggested this course of training to me. BEST THING I EVER DID.
I studied bard songspells to 20
Then switched to Minor Elemental to 30. The 25th and 30th spells CHANGED all my struggles at staying alive and hunting. SO glad I did this.
Then I went back to bard songspells
This puts you a bit behind for some things, but I have almost always hunted alone. Elemental Targeting let me kill things faster, Elemental Barrier gave me defenses that bards are SORELY lacking. I think I'm level 71 now, and I still use these 2 spells for every hunt.
Now ... training:
Whirlin made guides for a number of Bard Builds:
https://gswiki.play.net/Guides_by_Whirlin:_Two_Hander,_One_Hander,_Archer,_Pure,_Two_Weapon_Bard_Guide
Archales Bard guide:
https://gswiki.play.net/Archales%27_bard_guide
I think training up to 70 or 80 something is all about putting your head down and just sticking to a plan until you get to the place where you can make a decision about whether you're going to change, become a pure, or finish up with the polish to the plan you have been on already.
Lores are important, and will depend what your goals are.
The following link explains which song benefits by how much training in whatever lore is required:
https://gswiki.play.net/Lore_chart#Bard_Base
Let me sort them by lore for you, I hope I remembered everything.
I don't see any way to do ALL of this under capped, and it appears to me that it will be a LOT of post-cap training to do it all. But you can pick and choose how many you need to do which thing for interim goals, and work on the rest of the lores later.
Young bards need to set out on a course, and keep at it. Many choose the best combo that will get them to the 70-80 levels they need to then fine tune or do a major correction in training.
Every May, you get a free fixskill, and can adjust your training or re-do it completely at this time.
There are TWC Bards, you should talk seriously to them. Miss Stormyrain is the first one I think of. She's generally found in the Landing.
I've found that training a bard is give and take. You need to find the best balance you can to accomplish what you want and what you need. Bards may rule the world by the time they are capped, but ... getting there is fraught with struggles.
~L.
P.S. I know I've said this to you, but WELCOME to GS. Being a bard here is SO much better than DR :)
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)
I studied bard songspells to 20
Then switched to Minor Elemental to 30. The 25th and 30th spells CHANGED all my struggles at staying alive and hunting. SO glad I did this.
Then I went back to bard songspells
This puts you a bit behind for some things, but I have almost always hunted alone. Elemental Targeting let me kill things faster, Elemental Barrier gave me defenses that bards are SORELY lacking. I think I'm level 71 now, and I still use these 2 spells for every hunt.
Now ... training:
Whirlin made guides for a number of Bard Builds:
https://gswiki.play.net/Guides_by_Whirlin:_Two_Hander,_One_Hander,_Archer,_Pure,_Two_Weapon_Bard_Guide
Archales Bard guide:
https://gswiki.play.net/Archales%27_bard_guide
I think training up to 70 or 80 something is all about putting your head down and just sticking to a plan until you get to the place where you can make a decision about whether you're going to change, become a pure, or finish up with the polish to the plan you have been on already.
Lores are important, and will depend what your goals are.
The following link explains which song benefits by how much training in whatever lore is required:
https://gswiki.play.net/Lore_chart#Bard_Base
Let me sort them by lore for you, I hope I remembered everything.
| Song duration? | TELEPATHY - I don't know if this ever stops helping, those capped + bards will know :) |
| Kai's Song Advantages? | TELEPATHY - I stopped at 33, probably should get more |
| Song of Peace? | The more TELEPATHY, the better you will be at the sanctuary. |
| Song of Depression? | TELEPATHY again, looks open ended! Can't say enough GOOD about this song now that I finally have enough mana to use it every once in a while. |
| Song of Rage | TELEPATHY, too, I have never played with it. |
| Troubadour's Rally | TELEPATHY |
| * ~ * | |
| Sonic gear? | AIR lore (I'm still working on Air Lore, I should have 1X'd it) |
| Sonic Shout? | AIR lore |
| * ~ * | |
| Tonis | TELEPATHAY & AIR both |
| * ~ * | |
| Vibe Chant? | MANIPULATION Lore (chart says maxes at 15, if I read it right) |
| Purifying Gems? | Lots of MANIPULATION |
| Singing Sword | Keep training MANIPULATION, and your singing sword will be like hunting with another person. I do this, and it's pretty amazing. |
| Disruption | this is entering the land of pure bards. MANIPULATION, Manipulation, Manipulation. Go watch different bards in the Arena at Duskruin next time it runs. It's AMAZINGLY inspirational :) |
| * ~ * | |
| Song of Unravelling | Not a lore, but Mental Mana Control |
I don't see any way to do ALL of this under capped, and it appears to me that it will be a LOT of post-cap training to do it all. But you can pick and choose how many you need to do which thing for interim goals, and work on the rest of the lores later.
Young bards need to set out on a course, and keep at it. Many choose the best combo that will get them to the 70-80 levels they need to then fine tune or do a major correction in training.
Every May, you get a free fixskill, and can adjust your training or re-do it completely at this time.
There are TWC Bards, you should talk seriously to them. Miss Stormyrain is the first one I think of. She's generally found in the Landing.
I've found that training a bard is give and take. You need to find the best balance you can to accomplish what you want and what you need. Bards may rule the world by the time they are capped, but ... getting there is fraught with struggles.
~L.
P.S. I know I've said this to you, but WELCOME to GS. Being a bard here is SO much better than DR :)
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)
LUXELLE
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 04:09 PM CST
P.S. (again) Ask for help from fellow Sunfist members to Raze that war camp!
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 05:54 PM CST
And here again, I find myself in agreement with Middle-Coast Robert/PeregrineFalcon. DAMN but that's some solid advice!
<reads attribution>
Well, no wonder... :)
.
.
Adding to my own notes that Other-Robert kindly posted...
- Unless you are going all-Songs all-Time, you really are better off saving the medley mana costs and NOT using the Sonic Equipment trio for a long time. (Although it does help to have a free +10 weapon for use against the undead.) Use off-the-shelf equipment with decent flares, and you're golden.
- That said, once you have enough Songs known to where the Enchant of your Sonics is getting up into the "serious money" category if it were on equivalent physical gear, it's well worth switching over. Armor weighs 1/4 of physical armor, and (depending on which GM post you read from which period of time), weapon and shield are either weightless or 1 pound exactly. So you come out WAY ahead on the encumbrance (I don't expect to see it too often, but a Bard in AsG20/full plate is only in 18.75 pounds, versus 75 base...) versus physical equipment. By that time, too, your renewal is probably long enough that you're not terribly worried about being caught during a stun.
- Having "Song Status"--and even more, nowadays, "spell active"--means that you can REALLY control your medley renewal well. Never get caught in a stun again.
- Ignore those doubters over there. It is entirely doable to become a pure Spellcaster at 30th level. I stopped doubling in weapons/singling in Shields, because I was in Guarded all the time; later I untrained those ranks and went with magical ranks instead, with a Sonic Runestaff (to repeat: "Best flares in the game", and with Lore, "chance for a second helping of 'best flares in the game'"), and again, living in Guarded. At 55th I just about hit 8 magical ranks/level average, the baseline for Pure Spellcaster runestaff defense... And Bards can train in Shield and Armor and CM and Dodge, ALL a hell of a lot more cheaply than any of the Pure Spellcasters. (Bard can double in Shield Use for 15p/0m; every pure can only single in it, for 13p/0m. You do the math.)
- Yes, Virginia: when you are in (Sonic) AsG15/augmented chain with your (trained, + Mirrors) Dodge ranks holding your (Sonic) runestaff and your (Sonic) greatshield [now, thanks to Lore, with the hindrance of a Medium], you DO get all three of Evade (from trained + Mirrors dodge ranks) / Block (from sonic shield) / Parry (from runestaff) [to include the ability to parry magical bolts, because runestaff] possibly triggering, before you ever even see an AS/DS calculation.
- Air Lore. Air Lore. Air Lore. 'Nuff said. Tower shield hindering as a Medium, OR Large hindering as a Small, at 50th level (actually, 48th if you're fully singled). Remember how Bards can train CM? SBash with your tower (bigger size, more success) and get the defense from it (cheaply double Shield Use, right?), while it's only weighing you down (Dodge, + Mirrors) like a Medium. Air Lore; great stuff.
- On the mental side, I recommend stopping at 26 ranks of ML:Telepathy, because it's a couple of breakpoints (the key one being "extra -10TD to the targets from Depression") and you've got MOST of the benefits. I think you can get another 10-12 points of TD out of... but it'll take the other 70+ ranks to get there. Half the benfit, with 1/4 the ranks? Sold.
- UNLESS, of course, you intend to be a weapon-swinger. In that case, absolutely: go nuts on the Telepathy, and your group-mates will thank you.
- After reaching that breakpoint, though, I recommend ML:Manipulation, because again: Yes, Disruption is that good. (In all honesty, Disruption should be down-tweaked. Because, it IS that good.)
- However, once you DO have the Manipulation ranks, always feel free to lead with some VibChant. Getting rid of their easier hits against you (weapon vs. fist), and greater damage if they do hit you (weapon vs. fist), and their defenses against your attack (shield vs. none)... Yeah, it's just stupid nice. Particularly when you get a damaging explosion at net 135 final result... which just may be lethal. For 2 mana.
- Speaking of ML:Manipulation, you will never lack for orb gems for chrism. Just have to keep enough containers to sort 'em by the right value. And hey, free silver while you're sitting around absorbing and have all this mana to burn!
<reads attribution>
Well, no wonder... :)
.
.
Adding to my own notes that Other-Robert kindly posted...
- Unless you are going all-Songs all-Time, you really are better off saving the medley mana costs and NOT using the Sonic Equipment trio for a long time. (Although it does help to have a free +10 weapon for use against the undead.) Use off-the-shelf equipment with decent flares, and you're golden.
- That said, once you have enough Songs known to where the Enchant of your Sonics is getting up into the "serious money" category if it were on equivalent physical gear, it's well worth switching over. Armor weighs 1/4 of physical armor, and (depending on which GM post you read from which period of time), weapon and shield are either weightless or 1 pound exactly. So you come out WAY ahead on the encumbrance (I don't expect to see it too often, but a Bard in AsG20/full plate is only in 18.75 pounds, versus 75 base...) versus physical equipment. By that time, too, your renewal is probably long enough that you're not terribly worried about being caught during a stun.
- Having "Song Status"--and even more, nowadays, "spell active"--means that you can REALLY control your medley renewal well. Never get caught in a stun again.
- Ignore those doubters over there. It is entirely doable to become a pure Spellcaster at 30th level. I stopped doubling in weapons/singling in Shields, because I was in Guarded all the time; later I untrained those ranks and went with magical ranks instead, with a Sonic Runestaff (to repeat: "Best flares in the game", and with Lore, "chance for a second helping of 'best flares in the game'"), and again, living in Guarded. At 55th I just about hit 8 magical ranks/level average, the baseline for Pure Spellcaster runestaff defense... And Bards can train in Shield and Armor and CM and Dodge, ALL a hell of a lot more cheaply than any of the Pure Spellcasters. (Bard can double in Shield Use for 15p/0m; every pure can only single in it, for 13p/0m. You do the math.)
- Yes, Virginia: when you are in (Sonic) AsG15/augmented chain with your (trained, + Mirrors) Dodge ranks holding your (Sonic) runestaff and your (Sonic) greatshield [now, thanks to Lore, with the hindrance of a Medium], you DO get all three of Evade (from trained + Mirrors dodge ranks) / Block (from sonic shield) / Parry (from runestaff) [to include the ability to parry magical bolts, because runestaff] possibly triggering, before you ever even see an AS/DS calculation.
- Air Lore. Air Lore. Air Lore. 'Nuff said. Tower shield hindering as a Medium, OR Large hindering as a Small, at 50th level (actually, 48th if you're fully singled). Remember how Bards can train CM? SBash with your tower (bigger size, more success) and get the defense from it (cheaply double Shield Use, right?), while it's only weighing you down (Dodge, + Mirrors) like a Medium. Air Lore; great stuff.
- On the mental side, I recommend stopping at 26 ranks of ML:Telepathy, because it's a couple of breakpoints (the key one being "extra -10TD to the targets from Depression") and you've got MOST of the benefits. I think you can get another 10-12 points of TD out of... but it'll take the other 70+ ranks to get there. Half the benfit, with 1/4 the ranks? Sold.
- UNLESS, of course, you intend to be a weapon-swinger. In that case, absolutely: go nuts on the Telepathy, and your group-mates will thank you.
- After reaching that breakpoint, though, I recommend ML:Manipulation, because again: Yes, Disruption is that good. (In all honesty, Disruption should be down-tweaked. Because, it IS that good.)
- However, once you DO have the Manipulation ranks, always feel free to lead with some VibChant. Getting rid of their easier hits against you (weapon vs. fist), and greater damage if they do hit you (weapon vs. fist), and their defenses against your attack (shield vs. none)... Yeah, it's just stupid nice. Particularly when you get a damaging explosion at net 135 final result... which just may be lethal. For 2 mana.
- Speaking of ML:Manipulation, you will never lack for orb gems for chrism. Just have to keep enough containers to sort 'em by the right value. And hey, free silver while you're sitting around absorbing and have all this mana to burn!
CANDIDE
Re: Spells training path
12/11/2016 08:26 PM CST
If you can get x2 TWC, X2 edged and 1010, 425 at 25 I would do that. More importantly I would get 430 at 30 though.
I always stress the importance of those two spells to a bards quality of life. X2 spells as much as you have to sacrifice CM and then catch up, sacrifice dodge, whatever it takes. At 25 it would be nice to have 425 and 1010. At 30th level it is amazing to have 430 and 1010 to 1020.
After 30th training and having so many spells slowing down on them in order to catch up on dodge, CM etc is fine. Approaching 60th level though you are going to start to want to have 431 and 1040. The 1040 get out of jail card is an amazing life saver (as is augmented chain). Be sure to train in Mental mana Share though.
Always remember you have a fixskill every year so train for the best you can be right now and then fixskill into any new training areas that open up with levels. ie air lore if you start using sonic weapons or 1035.
GBB
DRUMPEL
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 09:13 AM CST
>Vibe Chant? | MANIPULATION Lore (chart says maxes at 15, if I read it right)
The gswiki says "The bonus for ranks >15 has not been sufficiently tested"
If the equation on the gswiki is true and it holds as your ranks increase, every 5 ranks should give you these kinds of results for hitting the shatter point using 1002 up until you exceed 25 ranks:
I speculate that after 25 ranks the equation will look like this:
TRUNC(base 2+(5 x 1.2)+(5 x 0.8)+(5 x 0.6)+(5 x 0.4)+(5 x 0.2)+((Man. Ranks -25) x 0.1))
If this holds true, you'd hit 25 off your endroll at 95 ranks of Manipulation Ranks. However, this would require testing, as per the gswiki says "The bonus for ranks >15 has not been sufficiently tested." So, it's just an educated guess based on the direction of the equation on the gswiki goes.
My bard has 26 ranks of Maniuplation Lore - in theory, an end roll of 132 should shatter a weapon/shield. I'd have to really check if it works at that endroll, I don't pay that much attention to it.
-Drumpel
The gswiki says "The bonus for ranks >15 has not been sufficiently tested"
If the equation on the gswiki is true and it holds as your ranks increase, every 5 ranks should give you these kinds of results for hitting the shatter point using 1002 up until you exceed 25 ranks:
| Manipulation Ranks | Endroll reduction from 150 |
| 5 | 8 |
| 10 | 12 |
| 15 | 15 |
| 20 | 17 |
| 25 | 18 |
| 35 | 19 |
| 45 | 20 |
| 55 | 21 |
| 65 | 22 |
| 75 | 23 |
| 85 | 24 |
| 95 | 25 |
| 105 | 26 |
I speculate that after 25 ranks the equation will look like this:
TRUNC(base 2+(5 x 1.2)+(5 x 0.8)+(5 x 0.6)+(5 x 0.4)+(5 x 0.2)+((Man. Ranks -25) x 0.1))
If this holds true, you'd hit 25 off your endroll at 95 ranks of Manipulation Ranks. However, this would require testing, as per the gswiki says "The bonus for ranks >15 has not been sufficiently tested." So, it's just an educated guess based on the direction of the equation on the gswiki goes.
My bard has 26 ranks of Maniuplation Lore - in theory, an end roll of 132 should shatter a weapon/shield. I'd have to really check if it works at that endroll, I don't pay that much attention to it.
-Drumpel
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 09:15 AM CST
I agree that they are nice, if you are uphunting substantially. When I FixSkilled into stone trolls [55] and stone giants [58]--and no, you cannot get the one you actually like [trolls] without the one you don't [giants]--at 48th level (yes, +7 and +10), then at that point I did pick up Targeting and Barrier, but only those 30 spells. The CS helped considerably. (I had ~10% chance to miss trolls and ~25% chance to miss giants, but if I hit them with -30TD [from Lore-boosted Depression] first, it was guaranteed all around.) That would have been a lot more dicey with -27CS (no Targeting).
I am now +2 on the trolls, but -1 against the giants... and the giants STILL have ~20% chance to hit me with CS spells. (Let's not get into their "topple over and kill you", or "boil earth and kill you".) That would be a LOT more dicey with -30TD (no Barrier).
But I disagree that they're really necessary. Until 30th, and assuming you have taken to heart the lessons from the Book of Krakii, chapter and verse about "do NOT tank your INFluence stat", then Lullabye/1005 is your friend. You don't need +25AS from Targeting if they're at -50DS from being asleep. You don't need DS/TD from Barrier if they aren't attacking/casting at you, because, asleep. The spell really is stupidly effective. Just walk over and bash the thing with a stick.
With Enhancives, I took my Elf up to +36 stat/+18 bonus. (And, by the way, added nearly a minute to my renewal medley.) They don't have ANY success with the whole "try and stay awake" in the face of that. (+53 INFluence stat bonus.)
(And see also, Order of the Stick, "sleep spells": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html )
If you're being a weapon-swinger, go ahead with the rigid leather and chain.
.
After 30th, given the difference in TD across the spell circles for Disruption, they're still not necessary, though certainly nice to have.
Like I say, if you're hunting up, sure. I'm currently 2 spells away from (EL:Air, anyone?) spherical Major Wave, which I should get with inter-level training this week.
Once you turn into a spellcaster, consider--especially if you find yourself casting Minor Elemental off of a node--dropping back down again to the lighter end of rigid, or even soft leathers.
I'll probably go ahead and get up to giants' level, but once I actually hit 58th (and get the free CS/TD from it) I'm shifting into the Illoke stronghold, with 62nd being the lowest level beasties. I have high hopes for the mastiffs to be mana batteries.
I am now +2 on the trolls, but -1 against the giants... and the giants STILL have ~20% chance to hit me with CS spells. (Let's not get into their "topple over and kill you", or "boil earth and kill you".) That would be a LOT more dicey with -30TD (no Barrier).
But I disagree that they're really necessary. Until 30th, and assuming you have taken to heart the lessons from the Book of Krakii, chapter and verse about "do NOT tank your INFluence stat", then Lullabye/1005 is your friend. You don't need +25AS from Targeting if they're at -50DS from being asleep. You don't need DS/TD from Barrier if they aren't attacking/casting at you, because, asleep. The spell really is stupidly effective. Just walk over and bash the thing with a stick.
With Enhancives, I took my Elf up to +36 stat/+18 bonus. (And, by the way, added nearly a minute to my renewal medley.) They don't have ANY success with the whole "try and stay awake" in the face of that. (+53 INFluence stat bonus.)
(And see also, Order of the Stick, "sleep spells": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html )
If you're being a weapon-swinger, go ahead with the rigid leather and chain.
.
After 30th, given the difference in TD across the spell circles for Disruption, they're still not necessary, though certainly nice to have.
Like I say, if you're hunting up, sure. I'm currently 2 spells away from (EL:Air, anyone?) spherical Major Wave, which I should get with inter-level training this week.
Once you turn into a spellcaster, consider--especially if you find yourself casting Minor Elemental off of a node--dropping back down again to the lighter end of rigid, or even soft leathers.
I'll probably go ahead and get up to giants' level, but once I actually hit 58th (and get the free CS/TD from it) I'm shifting into the Illoke stronghold, with 62nd being the lowest level beasties. I have high hopes for the mastiffs to be mana batteries.
NAAMIT
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 09:46 AM CST
Please keep talking guys, I have a lot to re-learn.
~Kelly/Naamit, who never made up her level losses from GSIV conversion but can hunt effectively with whips, wee!
~Kelly/Naamit, who never made up her level losses from GSIV conversion but can hunt effectively with whips, wee!
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 09:49 AM CST
I'm not sure if I've ever seen both "whips" and "effectively" in the same sentence, before...
MOURNE
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 01:36 PM CST
This thread is full of delicious data. I've been fortunate to have a semi-permanent hunting partner, but I'll be making some adjustments to my own setup after reading this.
I also trained to 1020 before starting on the 400s in earnest and it worked well for me for purposes of song duration. I think I started using 1012 in the mid-20s, but didn't run start running 1010 until low 30s. 1007 for ever and ever amen.
I don't personally bother with start/stopping 1003, but it's good advice if you've got the cycles to spare. I'm usually too busy playing hunt leader/loot management, and I hunt with a berserking TWC warrior, so I just eat the MSP. I also don't end up using lullaby often unless in a situation where we need crowd control due to bandit ambush gone sideways, so I can dedicate more to song upkeep.
Pining for Tonis and more air lore like whoa, though. Greater fire flaring gloves + sonic yierka-spur sometimes throws some wall-of-text with flares, and I cannot wait to see that speed up, and maybe get an ensorcell in there. >_> Combat spam for miiiiiles.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 110 silver coins for it."
I also trained to 1020 before starting on the 400s in earnest and it worked well for me for purposes of song duration. I think I started using 1012 in the mid-20s, but didn't run start running 1010 until low 30s. 1007 for ever and ever amen.
I don't personally bother with start/stopping 1003, but it's good advice if you've got the cycles to spare. I'm usually too busy playing hunt leader/loot management, and I hunt with a berserking TWC warrior, so I just eat the MSP. I also don't end up using lullaby often unless in a situation where we need crowd control due to bandit ambush gone sideways, so I can dedicate more to song upkeep.
Pining for Tonis and more air lore like whoa, though. Greater fire flaring gloves + sonic yierka-spur sometimes throws some wall-of-text with flares, and I cannot wait to see that speed up, and maybe get an ensorcell in there. >_> Combat spam for miiiiiles.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 110 silver coins for it."
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 02:21 PM CST
Note that # of Songs known counts for:
- Obviously the effective Enchant of all four Sonic Equipment Songs. "Four?" I hear you cry. Yes, four: don't forget Dancing Weapon/the mis-nomenclatured 1025. And the lower three--the basic equipment, armor/sword/shield--give their bonus for EVERY song known.
(i.e. "including themselves and the ones below them," so 1009 starts as 10 + 9/2 == +15, 1012 starts as 10 + 12/2 == +16, and 1014 starts as 10 + 14/2 == +17. Yes, rounding works, so I try to always end my Song training on an ODD number for precisely this reason.) Not, as is usually the case and definitely with Dancing Weapon, only "the ones above this one."
- MSP reduction. Every two (2) Songs known lowers your MSP by 1. So if you're "managing MSP", just jack up more Song research. Note that this gets you to Tonis and "shout rally" that much faster...
- Unravel/1013 TD pushdown. Every 2 Songs known lowers your target's TD by one (-1). This makes it a whole heap easier to hit with than the (already nice and low) Bard TDs as a whole. Sure, it's not automatic like Dispel/417... but it's not as vulnerable to armor hindrance, either, AND you can use Unravel to target a specific spell, if you know the target has it. (i.e. "the one with the biggest bonus")
- Unravel/1013 mana suck. "How much mana the target loses", be it creature/character OR something like a wand, is based on your # of Songs known. Know more songs == Drain more mana.
.
My initial plan with the Elf was to do All Songs All The Time. (I would currently have 78, at 57th level. As I say, the Minor Elemental got to be looking too attractive for up-hunting (Elemental defense 1/2/3 are available, but Targeting & Barrier make a nice boost) for me to stick with it.) That would be -39 TD against Unravel, and when all of their spells are gone then add another -30TD from Depression (20 base + 10 Lore) to drain them of all mana... quickly, because # of Songs.
Anyhow, it boils down to "There's lots of good reasons to have a lot of Songs." :)
.
.
Has anyone mentioned yet another benefit of Songs? Armor hindrance against Songs carries a) no cast-RT [hit "Ctrl+Enter to repeat" until it succeeds] and b) costs zero (-0) mana?
Blocked Disruption with your augmented chain/AsG15? No worries, you did NOT lose 30 mana....
- Obviously the effective Enchant of all four Sonic Equipment Songs. "Four?" I hear you cry. Yes, four: don't forget Dancing Weapon/the mis-nomenclatured 1025. And the lower three--the basic equipment, armor/sword/shield--give their bonus for EVERY song known.
(i.e. "including themselves and the ones below them," so 1009 starts as 10 + 9/2 == +15, 1012 starts as 10 + 12/2 == +16, and 1014 starts as 10 + 14/2 == +17. Yes, rounding works, so I try to always end my Song training on an ODD number for precisely this reason.) Not, as is usually the case and definitely with Dancing Weapon, only "the ones above this one."
- MSP reduction. Every two (2) Songs known lowers your MSP by 1. So if you're "managing MSP", just jack up more Song research. Note that this gets you to Tonis and "shout rally" that much faster...
- Unravel/1013 TD pushdown. Every 2 Songs known lowers your target's TD by one (-1). This makes it a whole heap easier to hit with than the (already nice and low) Bard TDs as a whole. Sure, it's not automatic like Dispel/417... but it's not as vulnerable to armor hindrance, either, AND you can use Unravel to target a specific spell, if you know the target has it. (i.e. "the one with the biggest bonus")
- Unravel/1013 mana suck. "How much mana the target loses", be it creature/character OR something like a wand, is based on your # of Songs known. Know more songs == Drain more mana.
.
My initial plan with the Elf was to do All Songs All The Time. (I would currently have 78, at 57th level. As I say, the Minor Elemental got to be looking too attractive for up-hunting (Elemental defense 1/2/3 are available, but Targeting & Barrier make a nice boost) for me to stick with it.) That would be -39 TD against Unravel, and when all of their spells are gone then add another -30TD from Depression (20 base + 10 Lore) to drain them of all mana... quickly, because # of Songs.
Anyhow, it boils down to "There's lots of good reasons to have a lot of Songs." :)
.
.
Has anyone mentioned yet another benefit of Songs? Armor hindrance against Songs carries a) no cast-RT [hit "Ctrl+Enter to repeat" until it succeeds] and b) costs zero (-0) mana?
Blocked Disruption with your augmented chain/AsG15? No worries, you did NOT lose 30 mana....
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 02:24 PM CST
(Note that while I showed correct maffs for Sonic Armor/1014, I started the base value wrong. Should be 15 + 14/2 == 22, not 17. Derp.)
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/12/2016 09:47 PM CST
"- Yes, Virginia: when you are in (Sonic) AsG15/augmented chain with your (trained, + Mirrors) Dodge ranks holding your (Sonic) runestaff and your (Sonic) greatshield [now, thanks to Lore, with the hindrance of a Medium], you DO get all three of Evade (from trained + Mirrors dodge ranks) / Block (from sonic shield) / Parry (from runestaff) [to include the ability to parry magical bolts, because runestaff] possibly triggering, before you ever even see an AS/DS calculation." -- Me
.
To protect the notionally innocent, I have redacted out the names of all of Me.
I could have done a search and clip, but through sheer happenstance I got one Evade, one Block, and one Parry on consecutive attacks. Lucky me!
Four consecutive swings:
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
AS: +27 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +13 + d100 roll: +43 = -271
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Robert'sBard evades the attack by inches!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Amazingly, Robert'sBard manages to parry the attack with his runestaff!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Amazingly, Robert'sBard manages to block the attack with his shield!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You gesture at Robert'sBard.
You hurl a small surge of electricity at Robert'sBard!
Robert'sBard deflects your bolt with his runestaff!
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You gesture at Robert'sBard.
You hurl a small surge of electricity at Robert'sBard!
AS: +203 vs DS: +400 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +65 = -109
A clean miss.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Is it possible to Parry physical attacks from Ranged or Thrown weapons? That would really be the only thing I'm lacking.
.
To protect the notionally innocent, I have redacted out the names of all of Me.
I could have done a search and clip, but through sheer happenstance I got one Evade, one Block, and one Parry on consecutive attacks. Lucky me!
Four consecutive swings:
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
AS: +27 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +13 + d100 roll: +43 = -271
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Robert'sBard evades the attack by inches!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Amazingly, Robert'sBard manages to parry the attack with his runestaff!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You swing an orase rune staff at Robert'sBard!
Amazingly, Robert'sBard manages to block the attack with his shield!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You gesture at Robert'sBard.
You hurl a small surge of electricity at Robert'sBard!
Robert'sBard deflects your bolt with his runestaff!
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You gesture at Robert'sBard.
You hurl a small surge of electricity at Robert'sBard!
AS: +203 vs DS: +400 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +65 = -109
A clean miss.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Is it possible to Parry physical attacks from Ranged or Thrown weapons? That would really be the only thing I'm lacking.
RATHBONER
Re: Spells training path
12/13/2016 08:15 AM CST
>Is it possible to Parry physical attacks from Ranged or Thrown weapons? That would really be the only thing I'm lacking.
Runestaff does that. At least if you aren't holding a shield at the same time ...
(Note: I don't if holding a shield penalises the runestaff parry, but its halved against ranged, and if you were losing half for only holding it with one hand too ...)
Runestaff does that. At least if you aren't holding a shield at the same time ...
(Note: I don't if holding a shield penalises the runestaff parry, but its halved against ranged, and if you were losing half for only holding it with one hand too ...)
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/13/2016 08:35 AM CST
Thanks for the clarification!
Yes, you do lose Runestaff DS when holding a shield in the left hand.
(Which makes sense, because the Runestaff is a 2Hand weapon, and like all 2Hand weapons--except the sweok greatsword I just sold Ardwen [that got mechanically broken in the deICE]--you get penalized for not having an empty left hand.)
I have not done the math, but I think you can gain more DS from the shield than you lose from the Runestaff, particularly since Bards can double-train in it. (Meanwhile, if you're going Sonic, you can get a +35 shield, and--from 48th level on, assuming singled in EL:Air--Tower effects from Medium hindrance.) Which means that when you sling your shield for picking up treasure, your DS drops from the shield going away but then rebounds from your Runestaff penalties vanishing, so you don't lose quite as much....
Yes, you do lose Runestaff DS when holding a shield in the left hand.
(Which makes sense, because the Runestaff is a 2Hand weapon, and like all 2Hand weapons--except the sweok greatsword I just sold Ardwen [that got mechanically broken in the deICE]--you get penalized for not having an empty left hand.)
I have not done the math, but I think you can gain more DS from the shield than you lose from the Runestaff, particularly since Bards can double-train in it. (Meanwhile, if you're going Sonic, you can get a +35 shield, and--from 48th level on, assuming singled in EL:Air--Tower effects from Medium hindrance.) Which means that when you sling your shield for picking up treasure, your DS drops from the shield going away but then rebounds from your Runestaff penalties vanishing, so you don't lose quite as much....
HJELTE
Re: Spells training path
12/13/2016 03:30 PM CST
As a Pure Bard, I recommend a shield as Sonic Shield has the wonderful effect of -size based on Air Lore. It's TP intensive, but I've found CS is no problem post 75 (kinda hard path to pure pre-75)
Moving up to Drumpel's point... the most important bit of that is the initial part of the equation (2+1.2*Manip)... What that means is the first rank is worth 3.2 endroll reduction, and every subsequent rank worth only 1.2 up to 5 ranks, and then further diminishing returns. That first rank however, is worth -3 endroll requirements. I recommend 1 rank of Manipulation Lore for physical builds for this purpose. Given the plethora of things to train in for MTP, (Telepathy lore to 25, Manipulation Lore, MIU, Mana Control, Elemental Lore: Air, or even more spell ranks), there's a lot of good alternatives to spend your MTP on. If you're a pure bard though... well... then you'll need the manipulation for the 1030, and probably won't get the telepathy in there til much later.
~Whirlin
Moving up to Drumpel's point... the most important bit of that is the initial part of the equation (2+1.2*Manip)... What that means is the first rank is worth 3.2 endroll reduction, and every subsequent rank worth only 1.2 up to 5 ranks, and then further diminishing returns. That first rank however, is worth -3 endroll requirements. I recommend 1 rank of Manipulation Lore for physical builds for this purpose. Given the plethora of things to train in for MTP, (Telepathy lore to 25, Manipulation Lore, MIU, Mana Control, Elemental Lore: Air, or even more spell ranks), there's a lot of good alternatives to spend your MTP on. If you're a pure bard though... well... then you'll need the manipulation for the 1030, and probably won't get the telepathy in there til much later.
~Whirlin
RATHBONER
Re: Spells training path
12/14/2016 04:47 AM CST
>Is it possible to Parry physical attacks from Ranged or Thrown weapons? That would really be the only thing I'm lacking.
See Rolfard's post in the Reim folder for a clip of another way to do this (1214). Maybe he was empty handed, maybe one hand empty allows 1214 to work at half strength. I don't think you can stack it on both runestaff and shield, though you might get it half strength with one of them.
See Rolfard's post in the Reim folder for a clip of another way to do this (1214). Maybe he was empty handed, maybe one hand empty allows 1214 to work at half strength. I don't think you can stack it on both runestaff and shield, though you might get it half strength with one of them.
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
12/14/2016 08:55 AM CST
But since I already have access to a +33 (currently) runestaff--which can't be disarmed--& shield, why would I want to go track down a middling-difficult-to-activate out-of-Realm spell on hard-to-find scrolls, or harder-to-find items, instead?
KRAKII
Re: Spells training path
05/16/2018 01:49 PM CDT
"- Yes, Virginia: when you are in (Sonic) AsG15/augmented chain with your (trained, + Mirrors) Dodge ranks holding your (Sonic) runestaff and your (Sonic) greatshield [now, thanks to Lore, with the hindrance of a Medium], you DO get all three of Evade (from trained + Mirrors dodge ranks) / Block (from sonic shield) / Parry (from runestaff) [to include the ability to parry magical bolts, because runestaff] possibly triggering, before you ever even see an AS/DS calculation." -- Me, #689 and re-quoted in #698
also
"AND Bards can train fairly cheaply in Dodge (compared to Pure Spellcasters, anyhow).
AND you can use a shield with a runestaff, you just lose a bit of the DS from the staff (same as a 2Hand weapon, since your left hand isn't empty)... but bards can train in Shield Use a HELL of a lot more cheaply than any of the Pure Spellcasters.
AND those shields can Block incoming attacks, in the Evade/Block/Parry equation.
AND your Runestaff can still Parry at the same time. (Including bolt/ball spells; this is the only way to Parry them.)
AND if you have Dodge (see above) you can still Evade." -- Me, #897
So based on Luxelle's comment, I went ahead and logged a hunt/did some analysis:
- I'm not actually using ANY of the Sonics right now. Instead I'm using a two-spot T3 4x Fusion greatshield (4 ranks of SBash and more-than-singled in Shield Use), a two-spot Fusion T1 7x 5-mana flaring runestaff, and two-spot Fusion T2 4x AsG8/double leather with arm & leg greaves & aventail & greathelm [all four of which are Enhancive, and--being armor accessories--NON crumbly], since I was already in cap-a-pie coverage.
- Ran for less than 2 full medley cycles, so not quite 20 minutes. (Currently my hunts end either because I'm mostly-fried and it's close enough to the end of a medley that I'm willing to stop, OR I run over a renewal, make some head-space [like with a long-term boost], and then run out of carrying capacity for loot.)
Ensorcel (only tier1) on the Runestaff paid off to the tune of one +CS, four +mana, and four +HP (because of the broken leg from the SpikeThorn); figure 4-5 times in a 10-minute medley.
Tier5 mana flares paid off 14 times (== +70 mana back); ~7 times per 10-minute medley.
- Total over the hunt, Unravel pulled out 1077 mana, in 57 blocks.
(28 were casts at 13 [-364 used], 29 were renewals at 4 [-116]. +1077 -364 -116 == +597 usable mana to kill the beasties with.)
Some of the casts were at Druids, which frequently takes down their Barkskin; unless I remember to use the double-Dispel rod to strip them down a bit, I usually just stop Unravel/renew Depress them because they're so likely to be wearing 2-5 spells.
- Much of that mana goes to run Tonis at 35 mana a pop; I currently get 83s duration [26 ranks of ML:Telepathy] and 39 of the 40 possibly Dodging ranks [89 ranks EL:Air].
[Note that this is enough mana to pay for 23 minutes of Tonis--longer than I was out for--so think of it as "Tonis on permanently for free, and use the Bard's actual mana to do the hunting..."]
- 16 druids, 18 warriors, 9 saplings, so 960 + 540 + <negligible> == 1500 field-experience.
- I only saw an AS/DS check 35 times in the whole ~20 minutes of hunt.
16 Blocks, 13 Evades, one Parry (both of the boulders went to AS/DS).
30 out of 65, so 46% of the time, I don't even see the AS/DS...
And I'm even less worried about bolt/ball than I am melee, because light/deep blues & Ranger resist & AirWall make defense just silly.
Yes, you lose some runestaff DS for having the left hand not-empty (as with all 2Hand defense).
Between the gains in DS from the shield (show me the pure spellcaster who can double Shield Use, like a Bard?) and the addition of Block, I feel it to be a worthy trade-off.
* (And one reason why there are so few attacks firing off in the first place is that saplings & druids CAN be stunned, so if I get a Disrupt out before they can act, they never will. Warriors canNOT be stunned, but they move at (+3s RT) more slowly when Depressed, so again: much safer in combat.)
- After paying Larton 14k to open 4 boxes, barks + beards + small gems amounted to 23k. (I have the dealer appraise the opals/rubies/sapphires, and if they're 1k or more I Purify them out.)
- After Purifying/LoreSinging to the potentially higher stuff, the guy with Trading sold off the whole backpack load for 150k (I withheld a 9250 chrism emerald and a 9750 chrism emerald), but probably 40% of it was from a previous hunt's backpack load that he was holding already (I only trot him over to sell things off when the screen scroll is ~3 inches or so).
also
"AND Bards can train fairly cheaply in Dodge (compared to Pure Spellcasters, anyhow).
AND you can use a shield with a runestaff, you just lose a bit of the DS from the staff (same as a 2Hand weapon, since your left hand isn't empty)... but bards can train in Shield Use a HELL of a lot more cheaply than any of the Pure Spellcasters.
AND those shields can Block incoming attacks, in the Evade/Block/Parry equation.
AND your Runestaff can still Parry at the same time. (Including bolt/ball spells; this is the only way to Parry them.)
AND if you have Dodge (see above) you can still Evade." -- Me, #897
So based on Luxelle's comment, I went ahead and logged a hunt/did some analysis:
- I'm not actually using ANY of the Sonics right now. Instead I'm using a two-spot T3 4x Fusion greatshield (4 ranks of SBash and more-than-singled in Shield Use), a two-spot Fusion T1 7x 5-mana flaring runestaff, and two-spot Fusion T2 4x AsG8/double leather with arm & leg greaves & aventail & greathelm [all four of which are Enhancive, and--being armor accessories--NON crumbly], since I was already in cap-a-pie coverage.
- Ran for less than 2 full medley cycles, so not quite 20 minutes. (Currently my hunts end either because I'm mostly-fried and it's close enough to the end of a medley that I'm willing to stop, OR I run over a renewal, make some head-space [like with a long-term boost], and then run out of carrying capacity for loot.)
Ensorcel (only tier1) on the Runestaff paid off to the tune of one +CS, four +mana, and four +HP (because of the broken leg from the SpikeThorn); figure 4-5 times in a 10-minute medley.
Tier5 mana flares paid off 14 times (== +70 mana back); ~7 times per 10-minute medley.
- Total over the hunt, Unravel pulled out 1077 mana, in 57 blocks.
(28 were casts at 13 [-364 used], 29 were renewals at 4 [-116]. +1077 -364 -116 == +597 usable mana to kill the beasties with.)
Some of the casts were at Druids, which frequently takes down their Barkskin; unless I remember to use the double-Dispel rod to strip them down a bit, I usually just stop Unravel/renew Depress them because they're so likely to be wearing 2-5 spells.
- Much of that mana goes to run Tonis at 35 mana a pop; I currently get 83s duration [26 ranks of ML:Telepathy] and 39 of the 40 possibly Dodging ranks [89 ranks EL:Air].
[Note that this is enough mana to pay for 23 minutes of Tonis--longer than I was out for--so think of it as "Tonis on permanently for free, and use the Bard's actual mana to do the hunting..."]
- 16 druids, 18 warriors, 9 saplings, so 960 + 540 + <negligible> == 1500 field-experience.
- I only saw an AS/DS check 35 times in the whole ~20 minutes of hunt.
16 Blocks, 13 Evades, one Parry (both of the boulders went to AS/DS).
30 out of 65, so 46% of the time, I don't even see the AS/DS...
And I'm even less worried about bolt/ball than I am melee, because light/deep blues & Ranger resist & AirWall make defense just silly.
Yes, you lose some runestaff DS for having the left hand not-empty (as with all 2Hand defense).
Between the gains in DS from the shield (show me the pure spellcaster who can double Shield Use, like a Bard?) and the addition of Block, I feel it to be a worthy trade-off.
* (And one reason why there are so few attacks firing off in the first place is that saplings & druids CAN be stunned, so if I get a Disrupt out before they can act, they never will. Warriors canNOT be stunned, but they move at (+3s RT) more slowly when Depressed, so again: much safer in combat.)
- After paying Larton 14k to open 4 boxes, barks + beards + small gems amounted to 23k. (I have the dealer appraise the opals/rubies/sapphires, and if they're 1k or more I Purify them out.)
- After Purifying/LoreSinging to the potentially higher stuff, the guy with Trading sold off the whole backpack load for 150k (I withheld a 9250 chrism emerald and a 9750 chrism emerald), but probably 40% of it was from a previous hunt's backpack load that he was holding already (I only trot him over to sell things off when the screen scroll is ~3 inches or so).
