As a long time archer I am going to be completely honest with you. Long bow RT is broken. We are far too fast for how efficiently we can hunt. The long bow is the go to weapon for almost all archers and needs to be adjusted to fall in line with other weapons. I would like to recommend changing the min RT of a longbow to 5 seconds and the composite bow to 4 seconds. At the same time it would not hurt to look at the COCK RT for crossbows, reduce it and remove the random element as well as some of the penalties.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
KITHUS
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 09:20 AM CST
Longbow RT is fine right where it is for what they do. Ranged RT is strength based and racial modifiers play a huge part in it. If you know anything about RL archery, especially primitive archery you know that bows were considered almost rapid fire weapons for their day. In truth, a three second shot with a bow is actually slow for a well trained archer, even for an aimed shot. Do you suggest the same thing for ambushing rogues taking eyes from hiding with daggers? I see them kill just as effectively and quickly as the ranged user does, I know, because I do it myself.
I have numerous ranged characters, through the entire training range and character class and some of them use longbows, others use composites and still others use shortbows due to their strength stat and racial modifiers. The trick is to use what gives your character the best advantage through a combination of AvD and speed. Each of my ranged characters is trained to excel at it to the point of actually being weaker in other areas.
I do agree with your crossbow assessment though. Crossbow users are already being penalized with a lack of DS vs bow use and also to gain full AS benefit from a crossbow kneeling is required, which further drops DS and makes the character highly vulnerable. I do understand that crossbows have "extra steps" in the loading process in RL, but their RT is rather high vs the benefits of using them and I believe that is why so few characters use crossbows at all.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I have numerous ranged characters, through the entire training range and character class and some of them use longbows, others use composites and still others use shortbows due to their strength stat and racial modifiers. The trick is to use what gives your character the best advantage through a combination of AvD and speed. Each of my ranged characters is trained to excel at it to the point of actually being weaker in other areas.
I do agree with your crossbow assessment though. Crossbow users are already being penalized with a lack of DS vs bow use and also to gain full AS benefit from a crossbow kneeling is required, which further drops DS and makes the character highly vulnerable. I do understand that crossbows have "extra steps" in the loading process in RL, but their RT is rather high vs the benefits of using them and I believe that is why so few characters use crossbows at all.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
COYOTERRE
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 10:10 AM CST
Disagree. See Radeek's post.
Let's not even discuss the disadvantage and time consumption of ammunition over that of melee weaponry, and/or the market availability of critical weighting for melee weaponry versus "sighting" (whatever that does). I would venture to guess there are probably 100 fel hafters to every 4x or higher "sighted" longbow.
Archery is highly efficient against certain humanoid or animal-type creatures (hooray for eyeball criticals). It's pebbles against brick the rest of the time, absolutely atrocious Damage Per Minute against anything with heavy armor or any kind of critical resistance.
Were it not for the limited CMANs available to Rangers and the broken mcsilliness that is hurled combat, I would drop archery in a New York minute. However, I play a foresty character who requires the ability to kill from the shadows, and therefore, archery is my only viable choice. While I recognize that mutant training paths do come with a cost and concessions, the training / stat / enhancive / equipment choices required to make archery viable, efficient and effective go far beyond what is required for most other traditional training paths. In fairness, that is notably balanced by the ability to have a high enchant weapon at a relatively low level.
Archery is not perfect - but I do not believe it requires any adjustments at this time. Are there improvements I would like to see? Yes, starting with some way to fletch arrows that can do notably heavier damage, at least for use in invasions against non-crit creatures - or - against incorporeal undead (UGH).
Also, agreed on the crossbow assessment as well.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
Let's not even discuss the disadvantage and time consumption of ammunition over that of melee weaponry, and/or the market availability of critical weighting for melee weaponry versus "sighting" (whatever that does). I would venture to guess there are probably 100 fel hafters to every 4x or higher "sighted" longbow.
Archery is highly efficient against certain humanoid or animal-type creatures (hooray for eyeball criticals). It's pebbles against brick the rest of the time, absolutely atrocious Damage Per Minute against anything with heavy armor or any kind of critical resistance.
Were it not for the limited CMANs available to Rangers and the broken mcsilliness that is hurled combat, I would drop archery in a New York minute. However, I play a foresty character who requires the ability to kill from the shadows, and therefore, archery is my only viable choice. While I recognize that mutant training paths do come with a cost and concessions, the training / stat / enhancive / equipment choices required to make archery viable, efficient and effective go far beyond what is required for most other traditional training paths. In fairness, that is notably balanced by the ability to have a high enchant weapon at a relatively low level.
Archery is not perfect - but I do not believe it requires any adjustments at this time. Are there improvements I would like to see? Yes, starting with some way to fletch arrows that can do notably heavier damage, at least for use in invasions against non-crit creatures - or - against incorporeal undead (UGH).
Also, agreed on the crossbow assessment as well.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 10:14 AM CST
A properly trained character with a longbow is one of the most efficient killers at cap bar none. They're far more efficient against heavily armored opponents than the only melee attacker that can aim for the eye and crit kill with nearly the same speed, an ambushing dagger rogue. A longbow is the heavy weapon of archery and should not be firing at 3 seconds, ever.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 10:29 AM CST
<They're far more efficient against heavily armored opponents than the only melee attacker that can aim for the eye and crit kill with nearly the same speed, an ambushing dagger rogue. A longbow is the heavy weapon of archery and should not be firing at 3 seconds, ever.
Actually I find the opposite to be true. I struggle against heavy armor as an archer. My wife plays a capped Two Weapon Combat Bardess and she goes through heavily armored opponents far more efficiently than I do as an archer. I had issues with the living Taladorian knights and though the undead ones seem to be a bit easier they are still time consuming and they don't generate crits nearly as much as anything else I hunt. I don't believe ranged is as overpowered as you state. As with everything else it has its advantages and disadvantages. My DS as an archer is nowhere near where it would be if I were sword and board and my spell and lore ranks suffer due to max training in everything associated with ranged.
<A properly trained character with a longbow is one of the most efficient killers at cap bar none.
That pretty much sums it up. Properly trained. Properly training in ranged requires sacrifice in other areas at least until post cap. As a ranger my TD isn't great, my DS, while adequate most of the time isn't exactly stellar either. I kill with speed because if I don't then I'm the victim rather than the victor. I think that's the way ranged is supposed to be, by design. One miss for me at the wrong time and if I'm not careful I'm toast. I don't have a shield to fall back on nor cman's to mitigate some effects. That also is by design I believe. Checks and balances, strength and weaknesses, good and bad.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Actually I find the opposite to be true. I struggle against heavy armor as an archer. My wife plays a capped Two Weapon Combat Bardess and she goes through heavily armored opponents far more efficiently than I do as an archer. I had issues with the living Taladorian knights and though the undead ones seem to be a bit easier they are still time consuming and they don't generate crits nearly as much as anything else I hunt. I don't believe ranged is as overpowered as you state. As with everything else it has its advantages and disadvantages. My DS as an archer is nowhere near where it would be if I were sword and board and my spell and lore ranks suffer due to max training in everything associated with ranged.
<A properly trained character with a longbow is one of the most efficient killers at cap bar none.
That pretty much sums it up. Properly trained. Properly training in ranged requires sacrifice in other areas at least until post cap. As a ranger my TD isn't great, my DS, while adequate most of the time isn't exactly stellar either. I kill with speed because if I don't then I'm the victim rather than the victor. I think that's the way ranged is supposed to be, by design. One miss for me at the wrong time and if I'm not careful I'm toast. I don't have a shield to fall back on nor cman's to mitigate some effects. That also is by design I believe. Checks and balances, strength and weaknesses, good and bad.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 10:37 AM CST
| Actually I find the opposite to be true. I struggle against heavy armor as an archer. My wife plays a capped Two Weapon Combat Bardess and she goes through heavily armored opponents far more efficiently than I do as an archer. I had issues with the living Taladorian knights and though the undead ones seem to be a bit easier they are still time consuming and they don't generate crits nearly as much as anything else I hunt. |
I was discussing an ambushing dagger rogue. A TWC bard cannot crit kill as efficiently as a ranged user, nor in the same RT.
| That pretty much sums it up. Properly trained. Properly training in ranged requires sacrifice in other areas at least until post cap. As a ranger my TD isn't great, my DS, while adequate most of the time isn't exactly stellar either. I kill with speed because if I don't then I'm the victim rather than the victor. I think that's the way ranged is supposed to be, by design. One miss for me at the wrong time and if I'm not careful I'm toast. I don't have a shield to fall back on nor cman's to mitigate some effects. That also is by design I believe. Checks and balances, strength and weaknesses, good and bad. |
Funny as an archer ranger I've found my self spelled DS is higher than anything at cap can hit without first disabling me in some way. My TD is fine for the most part, although I might pick up guards to get out of Ithzir adepts warding range and I have to be careful with triton sentries. Perhaps you should review your training or hunting tactics? I'd be happy to talk through it with you.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 10:50 AM CST
<Funny as an archer ranger I've found my self spelled DS is higher than anything at cap can hit without first disabling me in some way. My TD is fine for the most part, although I might pick up guards to get out of Ithzir adepts warding range and I have to be careful with triton sentries. Perhaps you should review your training or hunting tactics? I'd be happy to talk through it with you.
I don't hunt Ithzir or Tritons. I dislike all the existing capped hunting areas, intensely. I currently hunt Walkar's Woods almost exclusively and when the storyline ends I'll go back to Adventurer guild and GoS stuff. When soloing I stalk and hide but I think that's going to go by the wayside soon. I also have UAC maxed but that too may soon disappear in favor of maxing ranger spell ranks and fully doubling dodge. I know Rad's shortcomings and am at that point where an adjustment might be soon to come. I'm only debating on where to make that adjustment.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I don't hunt Ithzir or Tritons. I dislike all the existing capped hunting areas, intensely. I currently hunt Walkar's Woods almost exclusively and when the storyline ends I'll go back to Adventurer guild and GoS stuff. When soloing I stalk and hide but I think that's going to go by the wayside soon. I also have UAC maxed but that too may soon disappear in favor of maxing ranger spell ranks and fully doubling dodge. I know Rad's shortcomings and am at that point where an adjustment might be soon to come. I'm only debating on where to make that adjustment.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 11:01 AM CST
When you're ready to adjust make a post over in the ranger training folder and we can discuss it. Personally I love my hiding for grim camps but I know I'm in the minority there. As for your current hunting area, I have no insight. Unfortunately Plat doesn't get nearly as many cool temporary hunting areas as Prime. One of these days we'll get our own Ken but it hasn't happened yet.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
ROLFARD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
12/16/2014 04:08 PM CST
My rogue left archery for 3 reasons:
1) anything in plate (even 2x archery, perception, ambush, cman) is a pain, and I'd snipe 2 eyes before moving onto the next parts on MANY occasions. This includes grimswarm in full plate with the heavy crit weight sigil!
2) getting 'left behind' in bandit parties (I'd rather use TP, which I have on, multistrike than cman points which are restrictive on a multishot)
3) arrows...arrows...ARROWS (SCREAM!)
my three cents!
1) anything in plate (even 2x archery, perception, ambush, cman) is a pain, and I'd snipe 2 eyes before moving onto the next parts on MANY occasions. This includes grimswarm in full plate with the heavy crit weight sigil!
2) getting 'left behind' in bandit parties (I'd rather use TP, which I have on, multistrike than cman points which are restrictive on a multishot)
3) arrows...arrows...ARROWS (SCREAM!)
my three cents!
CAMPBELLS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 09:09 AM CST
<<As a long time archer I am going to be completely honest with you. Long bow RT is broken. We are far too fast for how efficiently we can hunt. The long bow is the go to weapon for almost all archers and needs to be adjusted to fall in line with other weapons. I would like to recommend changing the min RT of a longbow to 5 seconds and the composite bow to 4 seconds. At the same time it would not hurt to look at the COCK RT for crossbows, reduce it and remove the random element as well as some of the penalties.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
I am a bit late joining this discussion but now that I've found it I cannot resist. I play an old capped human rogue who uses ranged sniping, melee ambush, and UAC.
Ranged combat is very similar to a magic user using bolt spells. The main differance is that one second is added to the ranged attack if it is aimed. Another second is added to a ranged attack if the attack is made from hiding. Neither a ranged attack or a bolt attack benefit from the crit weighting of a melee ambush attack, nor any other crit weighting benefit. If you have a problem with ranged RT it should follow you should have a problem with casting RT. Is this the case?
An unaimed shot in ranged is not going to kill anything consistently, 10% or less. My rogue with a strength of 30 can complete an aimed shot with a longbow from hiding in six seconds and an aimed shot from the open in five seconds. I have been in a room full of creatures hidden and then , fired am aimed shot from hiding and stunned one creature. A wizard then entered the room, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, room cleared and looted before I am out of RT. LOL Ranged combat with a longbow from hiding is already painfully slow.
At best, there are spells that can reduce the RT of ranged so that is equal to that of a magic user casting a bolt spell. Where is the unbalance?
Wolfloner
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
I am a bit late joining this discussion but now that I've found it I cannot resist. I play an old capped human rogue who uses ranged sniping, melee ambush, and UAC.
Ranged combat is very similar to a magic user using bolt spells. The main differance is that one second is added to the ranged attack if it is aimed. Another second is added to a ranged attack if the attack is made from hiding. Neither a ranged attack or a bolt attack benefit from the crit weighting of a melee ambush attack, nor any other crit weighting benefit. If you have a problem with ranged RT it should follow you should have a problem with casting RT. Is this the case?
An unaimed shot in ranged is not going to kill anything consistently, 10% or less. My rogue with a strength of 30 can complete an aimed shot with a longbow from hiding in six seconds and an aimed shot from the open in five seconds. I have been in a room full of creatures hidden and then , fired am aimed shot from hiding and stunned one creature. A wizard then entered the room, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, room cleared and looted before I am out of RT. LOL Ranged combat with a longbow from hiding is already painfully slow.
At best, there are spells that can reduce the RT of ranged so that is equal to that of a magic user casting a bolt spell. Where is the unbalance?
Wolfloner
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 09:53 AM CST
| My rogue with a strength of 30 can complete an aimed shot with a longbow from hiding in six seconds and an aimed shot from the open in five seconds. |
Then what I'm suggesting would not affect you at all. I did not suggest changing the base RT, just the minimum so it cannot be reduced below 5. Right now the minimum is 3 and that is too fast for a long bow to be shooting aimed.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 11:36 AM CST
<Then what I'm suggesting would not affect you at all. I did not suggest changing the base RT, just the minimum so it cannot be reduced below 5. Right now the minimum is 3 and that is too fast for a long bow to be shooting aimed.
I'd have to disagree with this, and not because I'm an archer, in-game, but because I understand the mechanics associated with all forms of shooting. The longer an aimed shot is held the more your muscles fatigue and the more you shake, making holding a shot a HUGE mistake. Rapid shooting is accomplished from fundamentals that accrue through time and LOTS of practice. Actually, three seconds is about twice as long as it should take for even an average shooter to acquire their target and get off a decent shot.
Also, you need to remember that archers are already hit with an RT penalty. Missed or "bouncy" arrows that we have to stand around and wait to pick up, or searching for that "disappearing arrow", which drives me to drink sometimes.
No, I think bow RT is just fine right where it is.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I'd have to disagree with this, and not because I'm an archer, in-game, but because I understand the mechanics associated with all forms of shooting. The longer an aimed shot is held the more your muscles fatigue and the more you shake, making holding a shot a HUGE mistake. Rapid shooting is accomplished from fundamentals that accrue through time and LOTS of practice. Actually, three seconds is about twice as long as it should take for even an average shooter to acquire their target and get off a decent shot.
Also, you need to remember that archers are already hit with an RT penalty. Missed or "bouncy" arrows that we have to stand around and wait to pick up, or searching for that "disappearing arrow", which drives me to drink sometimes.
No, I think bow RT is just fine right where it is.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
CAMPBELLS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 11:37 AM CST
<<A properly trained character with a longbow is one of the most efficient killers at cap bar none. They're far more efficient against heavily armored opponents than the only melee attacker that can aim for the eye and crit kill with nearly the same speed, an ambushing dagger rogue. A longbow is the heavy weapon of archery and should not be firing at 3 seconds, ever.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
A pure with a longbow may be ONE of the most efficient killers at cap but it is not because of the longbow but their spells. I suspect they would be better served using a runestaff that complements their other magical training. Many pures already have bolt spells that are superior in effect that what a longbow would offer. There is a reason why the MAJORITY of pures use rune staffs and the exceptions are the ones who use a combat style. Longbow will make pures weaker, not stronger.
Rangers who properly train and use a longbow are ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. Rangers are also well suited to melee ambush and are one of the most efficient killers using that style as well. I do not know much about Bards and Paladins. I suspect if their are bards and paldins that are efficient killers and use longbows that the longbow is not the ultimate deciding factor but their spells that augment it.
I do not play a warrior or monk but I seriously doubt that using a longbow is the best choice for either to be an efficient killer at cap.
I would agree that a properly trained rogue with ranged is ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. A properly trained Rogue with UAC is also ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. A properly trained rogue with meelee ambush from hiding is also ONE of the most efficient killers at cap.
My character uses all three styles on the fourth plane of the Rift and Scatter more or less equally depending on the creature or creatures and situation he is facing. My character uses melee ambushing primarily when hunting Nelemar and primarily Ranged sniping while hunting old Ta'Faendryl. If in a warcamp my character uses ranged and melee equally and seldom if ever UAC. In my experience it depends on the AS you are able to generate, the armor the creature has, and the DS the creature is able to generate that determine which style of combat is the most effective.
For a human rogue with a strength of 30 an aimed ambush with a dagger takes four seconds and an sniped shot with a longbow takes six seconds. Any augments to strength could reduce the RT of the ranged shot and increase the AS of the melee ambush. That is a tradeoff between melee and ranged. Daggers, due to the crit weighting of ambush can actually hit harder than an arrow fired from a longbow.
A longbow firing at three seconds, which is the exception in most cases is exactly the RT of bolt spells which is a flat three seconds. Ranged combat and bolt spells are similar in that regard. I cannot fathom why you would have a problem with one and not the other?
Wolfloner
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
A pure with a longbow may be ONE of the most efficient killers at cap but it is not because of the longbow but their spells. I suspect they would be better served using a runestaff that complements their other magical training. Many pures already have bolt spells that are superior in effect that what a longbow would offer. There is a reason why the MAJORITY of pures use rune staffs and the exceptions are the ones who use a combat style. Longbow will make pures weaker, not stronger.
Rangers who properly train and use a longbow are ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. Rangers are also well suited to melee ambush and are one of the most efficient killers using that style as well. I do not know much about Bards and Paladins. I suspect if their are bards and paldins that are efficient killers and use longbows that the longbow is not the ultimate deciding factor but their spells that augment it.
I do not play a warrior or monk but I seriously doubt that using a longbow is the best choice for either to be an efficient killer at cap.
I would agree that a properly trained rogue with ranged is ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. A properly trained Rogue with UAC is also ONE of the most efficient killers at cap. A properly trained rogue with meelee ambush from hiding is also ONE of the most efficient killers at cap.
My character uses all three styles on the fourth plane of the Rift and Scatter more or less equally depending on the creature or creatures and situation he is facing. My character uses melee ambushing primarily when hunting Nelemar and primarily Ranged sniping while hunting old Ta'Faendryl. If in a warcamp my character uses ranged and melee equally and seldom if ever UAC. In my experience it depends on the AS you are able to generate, the armor the creature has, and the DS the creature is able to generate that determine which style of combat is the most effective.
For a human rogue with a strength of 30 an aimed ambush with a dagger takes four seconds and an sniped shot with a longbow takes six seconds. Any augments to strength could reduce the RT of the ranged shot and increase the AS of the melee ambush. That is a tradeoff between melee and ranged. Daggers, due to the crit weighting of ambush can actually hit harder than an arrow fired from a longbow.
A longbow firing at three seconds, which is the exception in most cases is exactly the RT of bolt spells which is a flat three seconds. Ranged combat and bolt spells are similar in that regard. I cannot fathom why you would have a problem with one and not the other?
Wolfloner
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 11:44 AM CST
<<A properly trained character with a longbow is one of the most efficient killers at cap bar none. They're far more efficient against heavily armored opponents than the only melee attacker that can aim for the eye and crit kill with nearly the same speed, an ambushing dagger rogue. A longbow is the heavy weapon of archery and should not be firing at 3 seconds, ever.
I'm not a mechanics guy, never have been, but I do play a post capped archer/ranger who is extremely well trained for offensive combat, and I know from experience that heavily armored opponents aren't exactly easy for me to pop with one shot eye kills. The Taladorian knights and Grims are prime examples of this. I'm not saying I haven't gotten one shot kills, but compared to a lot of other critters they are far from common. I'd rather face a caster any day for that quick kill.
I also remember when I hunted Shan and the Shan Warriors were in the same boat. Casters were one shot kills almost every time, but those warriors just wouldn't die.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I'm not a mechanics guy, never have been, but I do play a post capped archer/ranger who is extremely well trained for offensive combat, and I know from experience that heavily armored opponents aren't exactly easy for me to pop with one shot eye kills. The Taladorian knights and Grims are prime examples of this. I'm not saying I haven't gotten one shot kills, but compared to a lot of other critters they are far from common. I'd rather face a caster any day for that quick kill.
I also remember when I hunted Shan and the Shan Warriors were in the same boat. Casters were one shot kills almost every time, but those warriors just wouldn't die.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
CAMPBELLS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 11:48 AM CST
<<Then what I'm suggesting would not affect you at all. I did not suggest changing the base RT, just the minimum so it cannot be reduced below 5. Right now the minimum is 3 and that is too fast for a long bow to be shooting aimed.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
Why is that too fast?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!>>
Why is that too fast?
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 02:01 PM CST
| Why is that too fast? |
What other combat style has a 1 shot kill in 3 seconds without being limited by mana and leaving behind treasure?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
CAMPBELLS
CAMPBELLS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/16/2015 02:53 PM CST
You examples were about capped characters. Mana is not an issue for capped pures.
3 second kills with magic are alot more common that 3 second kills with arrows.
Wolfloner
3 second kills with magic are alot more common that 3 second kills with arrows.
Wolfloner
CAVEMANIA
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/17/2015 08:16 AM CST
Im not against archery as I know the pain of arrow managemet but instead of increasing RT what about DF adjustment for arrows? Guaranteed eye death crits at relatively low thresholds is the only thing I would think is reomotely out of line. But, I still wouldnt like that though given the arrow situation.
SARAH3
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 10:03 AM CST
>Then what I'm suggesting would not affect you at all. I did not suggest changing the base RT, just the minimum so it cannot be reduced below 5. Right now the minimum is 3 and that is too fast for a long bow to be shooting aimed.
That is a terrible idea. I mean, I get 5 second RT while hiding and aiming for eyes with wizard and Phoen's strength up using my long bow. If the base RT for long bows increases to 5 seconds, then that means an additional 2 seconds for me (+1 hiding, +1 aimed) for a total of 7 seconds, which is just ridiculous. You can get lower RT using polearms.
I don't understand why you want to nerf bows so badly when, if you compare to the real world, archery in GS is already pretty nerfed (e.g. properly trained archers irl can fire long bows in under 1 second while aiming).
That is a terrible idea. I mean, I get 5 second RT while hiding and aiming for eyes with wizard and Phoen's strength up using my long bow. If the base RT for long bows increases to 5 seconds, then that means an additional 2 seconds for me (+1 hiding, +1 aimed) for a total of 7 seconds, which is just ridiculous. You can get lower RT using polearms.
I don't understand why you want to nerf bows so badly when, if you compare to the real world, archery in GS is already pretty nerfed (e.g. properly trained archers irl can fire long bows in under 1 second while aiming).
SARAH3
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 10:07 AM CST
>3 second kills with magic are alot more common that 3 second kills with arrows.
Also, ^this. Magical RT isn't even hard RT. I don't see how it's OP for a ranged weapons user to kill a single creature in 3 seconds (or 4 or 5) when a caster can slaughter an entire room of them in 3 for the cost of mana while still being able to run off somewhere else or do some other action to protect themselves.
Plus the casters don't have to clean up their arrows or spend hours making nice ones for themselves. They just walk into a room and destroy things.
Also, ^this. Magical RT isn't even hard RT. I don't see how it's OP for a ranged weapons user to kill a single creature in 3 seconds (or 4 or 5) when a caster can slaughter an entire room of them in 3 for the cost of mana while still being able to run off somewhere else or do some other action to protect themselves.
Plus the casters don't have to clean up their arrows or spend hours making nice ones for themselves. They just walk into a room and destroy things.
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 10:58 AM CST
| That is a terrible idea. I mean, I get 5 second RT while hiding and aiming for eyes with wizard and Phoen's strength up using my long bow. If the base RT for long bows increases to 5 seconds, then that means an additional 2 seconds for me (+1 hiding, +1 aimed) for a total of 7 seconds, which is just ridiculous. You can get lower RT using polearms. |
MINIMUM RT not base. So you couldn't reduce the total RT below 5. Currently the minimum is 3 and you can fire at 3 while aiming from hiding.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
SARAH3
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 11:26 AM CST
>MINIMUM RT not base. So you couldn't reduce the total RT below 5. Currently the minimum is 3 and you can fire at 3 while aiming from hiding.
Can you? With what stats? As far as I know, the only possible way to get a base RT of 3 seconds while open and without aiming without spells is with a giantman. Personally, I don't care if a giantman ranger gets 3 seconds with a long bow while aiming from hiding with Phoen's and wizard strength. I mostly feel like increasing the base RT is going to mess up my hunting (and by the way, when I get knocked out of hiding, the 4 seconds I spend in the open in offensive stance is definitely preferable to spending 5 seconds in these circumstances).
And, once again, I don't actually think that having the ability to kill things in three seconds (not including the clean up time associated with arrows) is actually OP given that basically all casters do this, without the hard RT.
*grumbles about the lack of edit button.
Can you? With what stats? As far as I know, the only possible way to get a base RT of 3 seconds while open and without aiming without spells is with a giantman. Personally, I don't care if a giantman ranger gets 3 seconds with a long bow while aiming from hiding with Phoen's and wizard strength. I mostly feel like increasing the base RT is going to mess up my hunting (and by the way, when I get knocked out of hiding, the 4 seconds I spend in the open in offensive stance is definitely preferable to spending 5 seconds in these circumstances).
And, once again, I don't actually think that having the ability to kill things in three seconds (not including the clean up time associated with arrows) is actually OP given that basically all casters do this, without the hard RT.
*grumbles about the lack of edit button.
KITHUS
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 11:58 AM CST
Again Sarah, I have not recommended changing the BASE RT at all, ever. Only the minimum that a long bow can get down to. Currently the MINIMUM a long bow can be reduced to with enough strength is 3.
To answer your question about the feasibility of aiming from hiding in 3 seconds, I do it with my half-krolvin. The base RT on a longbow is 7 +1 for hiding +1 for aiming for a total of 9. You need a total combined strength bonus of 60 to reduce that to the minimum 3. Wizard strength and phoens gives a combined 25, leaving you 35 short of that 60 total. A giantman with max strength has a bonus of 40, while half-krolvin and dwarves have a max bonus of 35 so they can pull it off without enhancives as well. Humans only need a +5 enhancive bonus to pull it off. Elves, Dark Elves, Half Elves and Sylvan would require +10 from enhancives.
If you take away the hiding part, reducing the total then fully half the races in the game can reach that minimum 3 RT with a longbow while aiming without any enhancives required. That's for a ranger with wizard strength.
For non-rangers any warrior, rogue, paladin or monk could get +16 from surge instead of the +10 from Phoens which allows almost any race to hit that minimum 3 sec RT.
Overall the point is hitting that 3 RT with a long bow is not hard to do.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
To answer your question about the feasibility of aiming from hiding in 3 seconds, I do it with my half-krolvin. The base RT on a longbow is 7 +1 for hiding +1 for aiming for a total of 9. You need a total combined strength bonus of 60 to reduce that to the minimum 3. Wizard strength and phoens gives a combined 25, leaving you 35 short of that 60 total. A giantman with max strength has a bonus of 40, while half-krolvin and dwarves have a max bonus of 35 so they can pull it off without enhancives as well. Humans only need a +5 enhancive bonus to pull it off. Elves, Dark Elves, Half Elves and Sylvan would require +10 from enhancives.
If you take away the hiding part, reducing the total then fully half the races in the game can reach that minimum 3 RT with a longbow while aiming without any enhancives required. That's for a ranger with wizard strength.
For non-rangers any warrior, rogue, paladin or monk could get +16 from surge instead of the +10 from Phoens which allows almost any race to hit that minimum 3 sec RT.
Overall the point is hitting that 3 RT with a long bow is not hard to do.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
SARAH3
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 12:24 PM CST
>Overall the point is hitting that 3 RT with a long bow is not hard to do.
Yes. If you take away the hiding, which was not the initial claim.
I still think it's a terrible idea to make hunting with a bow worse. Compared to melee hunters, archers already have to deal with nonsense like cleaning up all the arrows, which can take a fair bit of time (I know that hunting partners often complain about waiting for me).
If anything should be fixed with archery, the "The arrow is out of your reach." issue that persists for way too long (especially when hunting unskinnable or non-corporeal creatures) should be resolved.
Yes. If you take away the hiding, which was not the initial claim.
I still think it's a terrible idea to make hunting with a bow worse. Compared to melee hunters, archers already have to deal with nonsense like cleaning up all the arrows, which can take a fair bit of time (I know that hunting partners often complain about waiting for me).
If anything should be fixed with archery, the "The arrow is out of your reach." issue that persists for way too long (especially when hunting unskinnable or non-corporeal creatures) should be resolved.
JARHEAD
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 12:25 PM CST
| Overall the point is hitting that 3 RT with a long bow is not hard to do. |
Nor should it be. There are enough things built into ranged combat that make it a pain in the neck. Fletching, lost ammo, hidden ammo, bouncy arrows and the RT associated with gathering them, and then there's demon killing, or should I say, standing around while all the swingers and casters kill the demons because only arrow enchant counts against demons, and 8x+ arrows are not exactly as common as 8x+ weapons.
If ranged combat were so overpowered by that 3 second RT then everyone would be using it and everyone would be using longbows. From my perspective, judging by what sells here and there, composite bows are more desirable for most classes, not longbows.
When I hunt in a warcamp with a large group, such as the Drakes Vanguard, I get my fair share of kills, and I do get my head full. But most of the time I find myself without a target after the first shot due to the others in my group using open mstrike and fire spirit. This is with a room with 8-12 grims, or more, in it, and most, if not all, post capped grims. I get a second shot maybe 30% of the time, and this isn't with a 3 second RT, it's with a 1 second RT from a bard singing Tonis.
So no, I don't feel a change is needed. I feel that the built in ranged mechanics designed to make ranged a bit tougher more than compensate for that 3 second RT
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
SARAH3
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
02/19/2015 12:26 PM CST
Oh, and of course the issues surrounding crossbows should also be resolved. They're something that seems like they would be so awesome, except that they're really not.
*curses the lack of edit function once more.
*curses the lack of edit function once more.
OM1E5GA
Re: Revisiting Bow RT
03/04/2015 06:07 PM CST
<<To answer your question about the feasibility of aiming from hiding in 3 seconds, I do it with my half-krolvin. The base RT on a longbow is 7 +1 for hiding +1 for aiming for a total of 9. You need a total combined strength bonus of 60 to reduce that to the minimum 3. Wizard strength and phoens gives a combined 25, leaving you 35 short of that 60 total. A giantman with max strength has a bonus of 40, while half-krolvin and dwarves have a max bonus of 35 so they can pull it off without enhancives as well. Humans only need a +5 enhancive bonus to pull it off. Elves, Dark Elves, Half Elves and Sylvan would require +10 from enhancives.>>
I know I'm late to the thread.... but if you're shooting a longbow aimed and from hiding in three seconds without Haste, it sounds like there's a bug involved. The RT from both aiming and sniping are supposed to be added to whatever your RT is when firing an unaimed shot from the open and shouldn't be affected by yer STR bonus.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I know I'm late to the thread.... but if you're shooting a longbow aimed and from hiding in three seconds without Haste, it sounds like there's a bug involved. The RT from both aiming and sniping are supposed to be added to whatever your RT is when firing an unaimed shot from the open and shouldn't be affected by yer STR bonus.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
