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Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:03 PM CDT
I apologize that this message is overdue. We have been discussing this internally, but we realized that we can’t wait to speak on this until all of our plans have been finalized.

Elanthia is supposed to be a fantasy-filled, fun world where adventurers of all stripes bravely venture forth, slaying monsters, overcoming obstacles, forming communities, and having measurable impact on the ever-changing landscape around them. It is a rich and complex world, in which contrast and conflict have always existed, including racial tension and oppression among the various playable races.

Yet as much as GemStone IV is a fantasy game, it is impossible to divorce it fully from the real-life culture in which it was created and of which it is a product. We recognize that over the years, many developments and in-game systems have become a mirror and reflection of various shades of racism. These reflections have included personal racism, systemic racism, and implicit bias present in the real world, particularly against people of color, and even toward those of mixed racial and ethnic backgrounds. For many, these systems have come to interfere with the purpose of our game and the recognition of the personhood of all of our players. It is our responsibility to examine our culpability in normalizing racism as a "fun" or "harmless" diversion and how that perpetuates systemic racism in the real world. The idea that "it’s just a game" is no longer—and actually, was never—enough.

Voices have been raised among both our player base and staff members, bringing to focus these challenging issues that have been present in our beloved game for far too long. To rectify this, we plan to review and re-write documents, update mechanics, messaging, and storylines to make this a better experience for everyone. Changes will be made and are being made now. Some will happen more quickly than others. Like the challenges facing the real world, some issues we’ve identified are embedded deep within systems that have existed for decades and will take significant work to change. Some issues are so complicated that we need time to make sure we handle them competently and with the care they deserve. But the staff is wholeheartedly throwing themselves into this work. We assume we will make mistakes, but we also vow to continue working through the mistakes and to continue to embrace and learn from them as a community. We hope you can help us along in this journey through your valued feedback and passionate voices, which we hope to encourage and support as we move forward into a more collaborate and united future, both within and outside of Elanthia.



Wyrom, PM
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:18 PM CDT
From the bottom of my heart Wyrom -- And everyone on staff, thank you.



Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:19 PM CDT
Thank you for addressing this, Wyrom, and for the promised changes.

And thank you to all of the staff behind the scenes who already have been working toward these ends.

- EK

>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:20 PM CDT
I just wanted to say thank you for making this statement. It is heartening to see that the players are being heard.

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:21 PM CDT
Thank you very sincerely for addressing this, and for the honest and frank assessment. Thank you even more for the promises made here, to handle things with care and competence.

This was a beautiful and considerate reply. I very much look forward to being part of the changes as we move forward.

~Amanda, player of Treeva
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:22 PM CDT
Thank you very much for this. I’m glad that y’all are reviewing this, and I’m sure others are very pleased to know they’ve been heard.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:32 PM CDT
Thank you, Wyrom. It warms my heart to see this topic taken seriously and the response stated clearly and unequivocally. We have a lot of work to do and it will take real effort, but it is the kind of work at which we all excel.

--
Naos
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:38 PM CDT
While you are examining this, please also consider non-binary gender options and more diversity in relationships both mechanically and in documentation.

Thanks.

--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:40 PM CDT
Thunderous applause!

~Licel
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:49 PM CDT
Echoing all the thanks for a very speedy and considerate response.



>>https://gswiki.play.net/Rohese_Bayvel-Timsh'l
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:54 PM CDT
Powerful post Wyrom, thank you.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:56 PM CDT
This is a huge can of worms, respectfully.

Just the fact that the game is based around killing the Other is, at its heart, extremely problematic from this view point. Its how we get more powerful, by literally killing anyone different than us Character. Guardians of Sunfist is dedicated to killing off certain sentient races because those races are 'Bad'.

Aelotoi were enslaved for generations with some dark and heavy issues that are reminiscent of real world slavery, highlighted and accentuated to the Nth degree. Are they being retconned too?

Winedotters are basically happy house slaves who serve the Elves and are seen and not heard, calling to mind huge issues with slavery in american history. Are they being retconned too?

Let us not even start on Half Krolvin problems (Half Krolvin actually SHOULD be retconned to be honest).

No one seems to be having a problem with those, only the fact they couldn't enter an elf raffle or go to a ball they wanted. And using the death of a real world human being to get the 5% penalty on trading they receive in pawnshops on some character removed. Which, lets be clear, is monstrous and shameful and some apologies need to be forthcoming. It is just another form of white privilege. Sorry you couldn't enter the elf raffle. I guess now you know what slavery feels like.

Also, what source of conflict is allowed? If racial tensions built into the game lore for decades are done away with...what will be the source of tension? Will it be religious conflict? Is...that better? >.> Will there no longer be tension at all?

We frown upon gender and sexual orientation in game because genders exist in real life as well as differing sexual orientations. Also, actual races. I know people who are Actual Minorities who have been discriminated against because of their race, oog and ig. It wasnt because of what race they were in game.

It's okay for a town to be mean to halflings because there are no halflings or elves or gnomes in real life. They don't exist. Trying to draw a parallel between actual racial issues and in game racial issues minimalizes actual racial issues and is just another form of White Privilege, taking an issue felt by many minorities and making it all about you.

I realize that theres gonna be a lot of hate my way because I dare disagree and stand up for actual issues in the real world, but this is important. I realize, again, my post might get pulled. But this is important.



AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.

What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 05:56 PM CDT
Thank you for this statement, and since change IS coming, may we suggest possible improvements to the perception of race in this thread?

Everyone keeps bringing up Wizards of the Coast; let's talk about that. In the current default D&D setting of Forgotten Realms, nherently evil races like drow and orcs are not analogous to any real world peoples. They never were, and they didn't have to be because Forgotten Realms already has a richly diverse Human race much like ours. There are dark-skinned humans. There are light-skinned humans based on Europeans, people from various Asia-based nations in Kara-Tur, people on the western continent of Maztica based on North and South American native tribes, and I could go on and on. Ed Greenwood, Wizards of the Coast, and TSR before them have actually been very good about the issue of diversity in this respect.

Going back to GemStone, I find it troubling that, with the notable exception of the Tehir, Human cultures in GemStone are extremely Eurocentric in design. And I think perhaps it's time to address that and discuss human people of color besides the Tehir and Shakat, whether that be via documentation introducing new continents, or further fleshing out the history and native people of the various regions of the Turamzyrrian Empire. After all, many of these baronies and earldoms used to be smaller kingdoms in their own right. I would suggest that perhaps some of those were not so very European before being absorbed by the Empire. Perhaps the Empire's human population is much more cosmopolitan than current documentation suggests.

At any rate, whether they come from new lands or were right under our noses the whole time, I hope I can look forward to meeting a much more accurately diverse human race in the future.

- Player of Teveriel, Arrec, and others

~You remove a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses from in your ebon linen vest. You unfold the earpieces of your spectacles. You put on a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses. You think to yourself, "Deal with it."
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:05 PM CDT


I am in agreement with you fudge. I understand the racial stuff in the real world. Not once in 20 or so years of playing this game off and on
have i ever thought anything about racial things in this game. Nor should it even be an issue imo.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:08 PM CDT
Seeing this well thought out post about the direction the company is taking makes me proud to be on staff. You have my full 100% support. Thanks.

FGM Netz
World Team
Congress of Ghosts 5118
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:20 PM CDT
>Trying to draw a parallel between actual racial issues and in game racial issues minimalizes actual racial issues and is just another form of White Privilege, taking an issue felt by many minorities and making it all about you.

I am an "Actual Minority," as you call us. I believe these changes are long overdue, and they are critically important as our culture reckons with how deep systemic racism and anti-blackness runs. Note, none of the players thus far actually know what any of the coming changes are. I would love it if as they are revealed, you listen with an open mind, and also listen to any Actual Minority voices who choose to speak on the topic. For many Black, Indigenous, and people of color, we don't have the luxury of just turning off racism when we log out of the game, and it's not fun in-game, either.

>Let us not even start on Half Krolvin problems (Half Krolvin actually SHOULD be retconned to be honest). No one seems to be having a problem with those, only the fact they couldn't enter an elf raffle or go to a ball they wanted.

As you say, and as others have mentioned, Half-Krolvin do have problems. We are evaluating what to do with respect to them. Same regarding Aelotoi. By the way, change doesn't necessarily mean retconning. In the case of Aelotoi, change could be fleshing them out to be a fully-formed, complex race of people with individual characteristics and opinions.

There will always be tension and conflict in this game. It doesn't have to be tension and conflict aimed at dark-skinned or mixed race people and supported by the weight of mechanics and official documentation.

>Thank you for this statement, and since change IS coming, may we suggest possible improvements to the perception of race in this thread?

Yes, we are listening. I don't have the power to promise any specific change, but further discussion is welcome.

~Kveta
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:21 PM CDT

We have a great team and there have been a lot of great conversations in the past weeks. Thank you for posting that Wyrom.

~ Valyrka ~
Ta'Illistim
Elves
Dark Elves

Avawren ~ I have Survival and a knife. I can work it out.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:24 PM CDT
After reading the thread in the other topic and this announcement I have to say I'm disappointed. I come here to get away from RL politics, not have it further shoved down my throat.

I'd thought this community was more then intelligent enough to recognize the difference between RL and Elanthia... but apparently there's no shortage of moral crusaders of one flavor or another looking to impose their will on everyone else and further disillusion me in the process....

This was my last refuge from RL insanity, thank you ever so much for smashing that barrier and taking away the one place I could just have fun and forget the snowflakes have taken away my livelihood and freedom.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:25 PM CDT

I just want to say that I really appreciate the staff for listening to the player base. Thank you for being compassionate and understanding.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:41 PM CDT
Ya'll do realize this fiction, right?

Has it really come to the point that players of a 30-year old text game are advocating censoring fictional literature and the game designers are ok with it?

Avaia, player of
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:45 PM CDT


Thank you, Wyrom.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:46 PM CDT
Wyrom, other GMs who have posted here, and players who have provided input, my sincere thanks for your thoughtful responses and consideration to these critical issues in 2020. To know that people are being heard, and the administration and GM staff of GSIV is listening and working, gives me great hope. Also a sincere Thank you to Treeva, who started a thread this morning which spiked a lot of civil conversation. And thank you to Naamit, who was vocal in a heated discord conversation the other day that factored into this as well I'm sure. You guys are what keeps bringing me back to GS for so many years. With much love and respect!

~Michael (player of Mikalmas, who, admittedly after this discussion will have to soul search is own 20+ year old RP, and will be glad to do so).
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:49 PM CDT
>Has it really come to the point that players of a 30-year old text game are advocating censoring fictional literature and the game designers are ok with it?

No one is advocating censoring anything. At least, the game designers certainly aren't.

~Kveta
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:50 PM CDT
>I am an "Actual Minority," as you call us. I believe these changes are long overdue, and they are critically important as our culture reckons with how deep systemic racism and anti-blackness runs. Note, none of the players thus far actually know what any of the coming changes are. I would love it if as they are revealed, you listen with an open mind, and also listen to any Actual Minority voices who choose to speak on the topic. For many Black, Indigenous, and people of color, we don't have the luxury of just turning off racism when we log out of the game, and it's not fun in-game, either.

You go on being a minority. I'm a person first and foremost.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:51 PM CDT
<3

Retser, SGM
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:52 PM CDT
Thank you for this.

Societies shift, people change and grow, and even fiction evolves over time -- I'm glad to see these conversations taking place.



-- Wheels & Skulls Department

You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”

[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:55 PM CDT
I'm curious to see how this all plays out. I think the sentiment is in the right place and I think taking the approach that D&D has is not a bad idea. I think it's better to shift ongoing narratives rather than changing too much history. Elaborate and add to the lore to make it more palatable. I don't think Gemstone has necessarily had a problem as identifying particular (player) races as always being evil. Many of the players I have come across over the years have role-played their characters as evil or good regardless of the race they chose. This also remains true for some of the NPC's that GM's have piloted.

What I imagine you changing is specific vendor prices related to race relations, for example, dark-elves in the EN. Based on the narrative and lore this is understandable. This is going to be quite an undertaking. Also, how far do you plan to go with it? It has already been mentioned that a lot of the Gemstone IV enemies are sentient races/monsters who are inherently evil. Are there any plans to address these?

I'm just curious to see where this all goes I suppose. I think it's going to be difficult and require a lot of tact. It may also be hard to show power struggles (among nations) in Gemstone without having some minor racial component involved.

Looking forward to whatever the future holds.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:55 PM CDT
<Censorship - the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

Kveta, that is exactly what you all are doing. Suppressing parts of a "book" that you find objectionable.

Avaia, player of
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:57 PM CDT


Thank you for bringing real world communism and censorship into a fantasy game that has been my refuge from the harsh reality of life for over 25 years.
consider my accounts closed!
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 06:58 PM CDT


<<Kveta, that is exactly what you all are doing. Suppressing parts of a "book" that you find objectionable.

Avaia, player of>>


GemStone IV is not a "book," it is not a historical literary work. It is a living, breathing, ever-changing environment that changes as the playerbase changes. That is an utterly unfair comparison, Avaia. What was acceptable 30 years ago is not acceptable today. What was comfortable 30 years ago to most is not comfortable to most today.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:01 PM CDT
I hope we'll also move in the direction of allowing more Asian influences in alterations, food and in-game references. It still bothers me that we can have brie and champagne in-game as part of the "vernacular", but nearly everything with a non-European influence has historically been declined or pushed back against, including sushi and Mandarin oranges.
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:04 PM CDT
>>What was comfortable 30 years ago to most is not comfortable to most today.

Comfort? You want art to be "comfortable?"

Something tells me I should introduce you to the photography of Robert Mapplethorpe.

Avaia, player of
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:08 PM CDT
>Kveta, that is exactly what you all are doing. Suppressing parts of a "book" that you find objectionable.

"Suppressing" is a strong word, I prefer updating to be more inclusive and pertinent to the current climate.

Even a lot of old Disney cartoons have some pretty objectionable stuff in them, doesn't mean I want to hear or see it -- times change, hopefully for the better.



-- Wheels & Skulls Department

You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”

[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:08 PM CDT
>I hope we'll also move in the direction of allowing more Asian influences in alterations, food and in-game references. It still bothers me that we can have brie and champagne in-game as part of the "vernacular", but nearly everything with a non-European influence has historically been declined or pushed back against, including sushi and Mandarin oranges.

Another interesting point. Thank you!

>Censorship.

There are no plans to censor anything. There is no plan to require any character to rewrite their own story. There is no plan to force any character to behave in any certain way going forward.

~Kveta
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:11 PM CDT
>There are no plans to censor anything. There is no plan to require any character to rewrite their own story. There is no plan to force any character to behave in any certain way going forward.

Interesting choice of words. There is no "plan" to do any of this, can you say for sure none of this will ever happen?
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:11 PM CDT
Gemstone is an escape for a lot of people. In order for it to be an escape for all people, we need to remove the blatant and systemic issues. I'm pleased to be part of a staff that is working towards that.

~*~ Thandiwe ~*~
ASGM of Events
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:11 PM CDT
So racist characters will persist in their behavior? What's the point of all this, then?
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:12 PM CDT
Then, if I may be so bold:

What, exactly, are these plans?

Doug
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:14 PM CDT

If Dhe'nar are going to be considered equals among the elves, Talinvor is 100% taking credit. <grins>

If retconning is going to be the answer to speciesism and (note, not racism except in the case of half elves) as well as cultures based in slavery,I would be interested how the Dhe'nar will be addressed, especially since staff have always been hesitant to touch it due to its unique source.

Remember that this game is rife with all the evils that can be concocted in a fantasy world. There does not exist a fantasy world that does not have these elements, otherwise there is no story to tell. That is what helps us define our own character's place within it; not necessarily demand the game change to accommodate our own ideals, no matter how noble.

Please remember, there are still players with long character histories of overcoming tragedy, or who do propagate it based on the games current cultural identities that any sort of retcon will significantly impact.


-player of Talinvor

https://www.facebook.com/talinvor
https://twitter.com/vorrith
http://tahlon.obsidiantower.com
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Re: Racial Tension in Elanthia 06/28/2020 07:16 PM CDT
Question, black face is a big issue right now.

Can we make it a requirement for players to submit a photo of their skin tone in order to prevent them from creating a character that is darker complected and RPing them in a derogatory manner to avoid insulting races in the real world that are dark complected?


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

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