<<I would like to see Noi’sho’rah (NSR) as an option in the existing CONVERT system. Dhe’nar revere him above the Arkati but I don’t have strong feelings about what his status would be.>>

The core issue with the CONVERT system is that it will reify the "god" as objectively real in spite of framed ambiguities or disputes. Is L'Naere really dead, or is she a debased legend, and really just Imaera? L'Naere sounds literally and figuratively an awful lot like Imaera. If she were made part of that mechanic, most of that ambiguity on her immediately evaporates. Her existence really never would have been doubted in the first place if it was possible to channel powers from her. (There's also the DragonSpine Fane and that Ghezresh stuff, but the point is powers are visceral proof.) That is what the convert system is, it is what attunes the form powers take for Clerics and Paladins, shaped by the different gods and even detectable with magical items. For ambiguity, you choose Other.

With Noi'sho'rah you have this issue of how reliable the Dhe'nar version of their own history is, because it was written with a lot of built-in distorting factors. Thousands of years with no written records, thousands of years with a library solely controlled by a revisionist Temple caste, a cataclysm (supposedly wrath of Noi'sho'rah), oral traditions of memorized texts after a cataclysm. The cataclysm is a case in point. The older document implies the mountain wasn't there before the Great Fire, while the (canon) Eh'lah document makes it sound like Sharath was built next to a volcano that erupted.

I say this because about twenty years ago I got into an argument with Starsnuffer on the forum about the "History of the Faendryl" document, which has some deep inconsistencies with the other history documents, but no framing on it for being revisionist or disputed or whatever else. He was pretty staunchly of the view that lore documents about the ancient past should not be treated as factually reliable and were likely to have been corrupted with myths and ideologies. But what happens if you can commune with the historical figure, who has been there the whole time and watching it all?


<<If we accept that NSR ascended, he has moved beyond the mortal realm. There are numerous examples of “normal” beings in Elanthian history ascending. To me, he fits the category of a spirit as listed in the wiki list of deities. >>

The religious lore is really inconsistent if you put it under a microscope. Amasalen is an actual god who has legends of having once been Faendryl. But different documents place that in very different time periods. In one it says "before the split into the separate Houses", in another "before the exile of the House" but somehow his "immortal origins are not known", and in yet another legend he's a pre-exile Faendryl of the Agrestis and his origins were getting Luukos blood in him. Is Amasalen actually Faendryl or ascended at all? I don't know. Is it even meaningful to say he was once Faendryl if it was before the Houses? He certainly could not have been part of the Agrestis. Did the Agrestis even exist as such in the Second Age? And that's just some story found on a 150 year old document. But we cannot seriously say Amasalen was a historical figure, as a mortal, when the history is not actually historical. If the ascension was before the Houses, it would pre-date written history entirely.

You have similar issues with that very ancient Elven period history. The "Timeline of Elanthian History" document has House Faendryl founded about 3,600 years before Tahlad left, while the original "History of Elanthia" document says Ta'Faendryl was built by Korthyr's "line", and the "History of the Faendryl" document has Korthyr dying when only the first borough was built and the city was built over the next several centuries by his great nephew. Using the reign lengths and times in that document, Tahlad does not depart until some time around the reign of Yshryth, the 14th Faendryl Patriarch.

So how does that scene between Noi'sho'rah and Korthyr happen, two thousand years after the last of the Houses were founded, and Korthyr had been dead for a few thousand years? You can read it as having happened 55,000 years ago and then the Departure for some reason does not happen until 50,000 years ago. Those years and that 5,000 year gap are in the older Dhe'nar document. But Tahlad as a "young priest" and uncle to Korthyr, or even alive yet for it, becomes very dubious. How much of the story is politics of 50,000 years ago that were not meaningful yet 55,000 years ago? There is ambiguity in that which might be interpreted any number of ways. Maybe one view is Tahlad spent 5,000 years trying to convince everyone else of the revelation, while another view is "Sharath" was twisted from "the promised land of Sharyth Ardenai" and the whole thing has been warped. But if you can go ask Noi'sho'rah what happened, this ambiguity should not be there in the first place.

Meanwhile the Sylvans were right there between Ta'Loenthra and Ta'Ardenai still for another 9,000 years, and the open-air elves and sylvan elves had split with the elves leaving the forest and spreading out into the clearings long before they started building cities (but also split after the Ur-Daemon War), in the "History of the Sylvan Elves" document. And the Sylvan religion, which has hierophant memory back that far, doesn't sound at all like the Way. The Yadzari myth in the "Elven Dogma and Theology" document roots the ideological splits between what became the Houses "along family lines", including the Dhe'nar, all the way back to the Ur-Daemon War before the rebuilding (and neglects the sylvans entirely.) What becomes of the premise that there was unity among the elves before the Houses formed? The Dhe'nar version of the Arkati teachings may have very ancient roots, but the whole subject is one of disagreement. Why should it be if there has always been manifest proof?

It's really hairy making an ascended historical mortal into an objectively factual thing, able to correct everyone on doctrine and the historical details. The gods in this setting don't have a track record of reliability. They let different cultures and sects interpret them very differently. Without the convert system there's still ambiguity on historicity and what being a representative to the Arkati means.

- Xorus' player

<<So to me the convert system isn't necessarily "this thing is real" but more of "this is where I place my faith and draw my power." ... I just don't necessarily think CONVERT is an objective "this Arkati is real" system.>>

I do not really agree with that, the deity is the power source. The way it has generally been written, it's not even just the mana source, it's the source of the spell itself. The conversion alignment seems as "real" as elemental attunement. It can be detected by magical items and by NPCs, who will react on whatever the source / aura actually is, not what the character wants to believe about it.

I would agree that a character could believe their power comes from X while it comes from Y, or maybe that mechanical options Y and Z could be different aspects of a more fundamental being.



"As in rote magic, flow magic of a religious nature takes a slightly different course. Being very talented flow mages themselves, the Arkati are able to direct the course of development for Clerical magic, apparently having an agreed-upon level of power they wish their followers to control. A "flow mage" who studies Clerical spells, therefore, is more a conduit through which his controller can perform magic." - Overview of Elanthian Magic (2004), IC document

"Magical forces are also brought to bear when a spell user employs spiritual forces via the power of his/her patron deities. ... Spiritual Power is the power the deities of Elanthia deign to share with their followers or other spell users. A spell user of the Spirit Sphere draws directly on the power of the deity, usually without the conscious cooperation of the higher force." - Magic Guide (Play.net), OOC document; vestigial from I.C.E. books where Clerics are only channels of deity powers

I second this.

It makes perfect sense. I believe it's long overdue that the Dhe'nar have some official history, and this would go a long way to aid in the holy/cleric problem they face. Playing Dhe'nar is like hitting advance play as it is. Getting a raise is difficult RP wise when you don't really have a pardon to RP with as acceptable.

Archious makes several excellent points that hold solid.

<I find that my style of interpretation/play really doesn't mesh well with the documentation that exists, which is frustrating because that's a very important and fundamental thing to characters.>

I think this is true of MOST players. The documents are great for giving players a sense of the history and cultures of Elanthia.... but most of our characters wouldn't have access to the knowledge in most of them for a variety of reasons. Not to mention, a lot of us have been playing our characters longer than a lot of the official documentation has existed.

It's good to have at least a general idea of the lore important to a character but sticking TOO close to it runs the risk of creating a character that's less interesting and/or fun to play than they could be. After all, the Dhe'nari wouldn't exist if a specific few people had stuck to the official idea of what a dark elf was at the time.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

She sure did Clunk...

A roaring ball of fire streaks through the air and strikes Clunk!
... 20 points of damage!
Flames incinerate right leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
He is knocked to the ground!
He is stunned!

Hehehe.

(Arianiss moves in front of Clunk but makes no moves towards Eorgina.)

That was after my fumble cast on her...

Clunk whispers, "Kneel."

Clunk put a small oval firestone in his dwarven war girdle.

Ahh, good times with the Arkati.

I really appreciate everyone joining the conversation so far, it's been nice to read it all.

I think it's well established that there are many examples of lesser or mortal beings becoming something else. NSR might have ascended, he might have just darkened the room and snuck away. It's true that making him an option in the CONVERT system might seem to remove some of that ambiguity but I don't think it must necessarily, or become authoritative on NSR's status to every character in the lands. I guess I just don't agree that it will reify NSR as anything beyond an object of devotion to some characters and an entire off-camera civilization, which he already is.

There have been a bunch of interesting points raised about history, and other entities' pasts that I just don't think are relevant to NSR's status. The core point is that he could have possibly ascended, and the belief of the Dhe'nar that he did is at least plausible, reliable records or no, and that his teachings have spawned an entire civilization that worships him to this day. CONVERT does not mean that any follower of NSR casting a spirt-based spell is suddenly manifesting NSR's influence in the world, it just means that the person is a devotee of that being.

Obviously, worship is not a word that the Dhe'nar would use to describe their reverence for NSR, but I'm constrained by the realities of the CONVERT system and spell messaging and so forth.

In the end, I think the idea that NSR's ultimate fate and status are unclear at best, but that he is revered by Dhe'nar society with all the trappings of a religion are two things that can both exist together.

--Archious' player