It isn't easy being the bad guy. To the point where it's become so rare that anyone attempts it that we've sort of become accustomed to waiting around for a GM to fulfill that role for us. As a side-effect, many players don't know what to think when they encounter it. Instead of seeing an opportunity to interact in a way that is potentially exciting and might give them a break from script hunting and resting, they see some jerk just trying to ruin their day.
I think that's what makes playing the bad guy such a difficult challenge. While it requires the ability to ignore to some extent when other players get their feathers ruffled, ultimately it isn't conducive to roleplay when one or both parties involved in the conflict forget that what's happening to their characters isn't happening to them. I think that part of playing a bad guy is keeping the other player in mind to steer the interaction in the right direction.
This shout out goes to Midgar of the Black Hand. He was threatening. Impressive. Deadly. And just plain cool!
He could have killed anyone he wanted to right from the start, but he kept the interaction going and only when things hit the boiling point did it get violent. I loved the boasting and posturing leading up to it. It had me in mind of one of those movie villains you can't wait to see get what's coming to him!
Also, honorable mention to Kittai and Grutak for refusing to back down. It was a nice bit of excitement that didn't require any GM to get the ball rolling.
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
NAAMIT
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/23/2019 06:28 PM CDT
On the contrary - Someone from this group picked off a friend of mine and the target had no idea either who Blackhand was, nor who the assassin was.
This is PK crap.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 09:54 AM CDT
Agreed, Naamit. Killing another player without warning and without even revealing yourself as the killer is fine in a PvP game. You're just scoring points for your team and besides, you couldn't interact with the enemy if you wanted to! This is not that sort of game.
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
CIDHIGHWIND
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 10:22 AM CDT
Thanks Tav, I appreciate the kind words. It is a real encouragement.
It's people reacting like Naamit above, that can really make it a tough thing to pull off. If we ever do offend anyone due to our actions, please realize that trying to take on the role of group like this is no easy task. We're bound to make mistakes, and are constantly learning new lessons along the way. Ultimately, our goal is to bring an enjoyable roleplaying experience to people, and we put a great deal of thought and effort into it.
Also, we tend to prefer less scripted, and more organic type experiences, which can have the unfortunate side effect of things not going nearly as planned. Which often still works out great in the end, but there are times it does not!
Clearly you do not take a concept like this, and build it into a tier 3 MHO if you are just a bunch of PKers and griefers looking to kill people! :D
Also, we constantly get told things like "You should be more like So and So - They are/were the ideal villain!" Or, we often get a lecture on how we should do things (especially when things we try don't turn out so well!). The problem is, playing a villain, and playing a GROUP of villains that tries to create roleplaying events, are two entirely different things. Also, probably 90% of the suggestions and advice I get, telling me "You should do it THIS way...", were things we've actually already tried, and didn't work. I do get where they are coming from, though - I had the same ideas when I first came into this, and have learned quite a great deal of lessons along the way (And continue to learn lessons!).
In the end, please know that if we do something that upsets you, we are just normal people, and we do make mistakes. Normally a (civil) private communication to whichever of us is involved, will diffuse the situation (Assuming you don't continue to add fuel to the flames.).
~Midgar
It's people reacting like Naamit above, that can really make it a tough thing to pull off. If we ever do offend anyone due to our actions, please realize that trying to take on the role of group like this is no easy task. We're bound to make mistakes, and are constantly learning new lessons along the way. Ultimately, our goal is to bring an enjoyable roleplaying experience to people, and we put a great deal of thought and effort into it.
Also, we tend to prefer less scripted, and more organic type experiences, which can have the unfortunate side effect of things not going nearly as planned. Which often still works out great in the end, but there are times it does not!
Clearly you do not take a concept like this, and build it into a tier 3 MHO if you are just a bunch of PKers and griefers looking to kill people! :D
Also, we constantly get told things like "You should be more like So and So - They are/were the ideal villain!" Or, we often get a lecture on how we should do things (especially when things we try don't turn out so well!). The problem is, playing a villain, and playing a GROUP of villains that tries to create roleplaying events, are two entirely different things. Also, probably 90% of the suggestions and advice I get, telling me "You should do it THIS way...", were things we've actually already tried, and didn't work. I do get where they are coming from, though - I had the same ideas when I first came into this, and have learned quite a great deal of lessons along the way (And continue to learn lessons!).
In the end, please know that if we do something that upsets you, we are just normal people, and we do make mistakes. Normally a (civil) private communication to whichever of us is involved, will diffuse the situation (Assuming you don't continue to add fuel to the flames.).
~Midgar
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 10:45 AM CDT
Thanks for the response, Midgar.
Part of the reason this sort of thing is so difficult to pull off is that people aren't used to it. They aren't expecting to encounter the bad guy and his intentions are unknown. All they know is this guy just killed my character! That's why the interaction leading up to the escalation is so critical.
I won't presume to tell you what to do. You have much more experience at this than I do. But if it were me, I think the #1 thing on my mind in every interaction would be: How is the guy on the other side of this conflict seeing this? Are we on the same page? What can I do to better signal my intentions without making this feel contrived? My mind is always on the other player because if they aren't with me by the end of it, then I'm far too close to being a disruption rather than something to be experienced. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, that will happen anyway.
~Taverkin
Part of the reason this sort of thing is so difficult to pull off is that people aren't used to it. They aren't expecting to encounter the bad guy and his intentions are unknown. All they know is this guy just killed my character! That's why the interaction leading up to the escalation is so critical.
I won't presume to tell you what to do. You have much more experience at this than I do. But if it were me, I think the #1 thing on my mind in every interaction would be: How is the guy on the other side of this conflict seeing this? Are we on the same page? What can I do to better signal my intentions without making this feel contrived? My mind is always on the other player because if they aren't with me by the end of it, then I'm far too close to being a disruption rather than something to be experienced. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, that will happen anyway.
~Taverkin
DOUG
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 10:51 AM CDT
Yes, some of us are just too good to be put down. The very thought.
And of course, those of us who are have the entire system backing us.
Doug
And of course, those of us who are have the entire system backing us.
Doug
CIDHIGHWIND
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 11:19 AM CDT
>>Part of the reason this sort of thing is so difficult to pull off is that people aren't used to it. They aren't expecting to encounter the bad guy and his intentions are unknown. All they know is this guy just killed my character! That's why the interaction leading up to the escalation is so critical.
This is quite true. I also think that because there have been many players over the years who really are just griefers and PKers, that people tend to gravitate straight to that way of thinking.
>>I won't presume to tell you what to do. You have much more experience at this than I do. But if it were me, I think the #1 thing on my mind in every interaction would be: How is the guy on the other side of this conflict seeing this? Are we on the same page? What can I do to better signal my intentions without making this feel contrived? My mind is always on the other player because if they aren't with me by the end of it, then I'm far too close to being a disruption rather than something to be experienced. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, that will happen anyway.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I don't wish to be given any advice at all! Honestly, even stuff I already know, it sometimes helps to be reminded of. And people may very well have good advice for us, which I am always grateful for.
One of the hardest parts, I find, is that all it takes is one player to ruin everything. In fact, in all my years of roleplaying this type of role, if there's one thing I've learned, it's almost ALWAYS the "good" guys, that attack first. There is a lot of hypocrisy that you have to deal with when taking on this role, because so often people will react in ways that are far worse than anything you did or would ever do to them. If only I could count the number of times I've been griefed by these "good" players! People will try to bully you, inflict as much harm as they possibly can against you, and worst of all, will use OOC avenues to perform cruel character assassinations against you and/or your organization. Now, you won't see me complain about most of those things - I just see it as coming with the territory. But it is a source of many headaches and frustration that I think few are willing to muddle through.
A lot of the progress I have made against this, IC, is to build up measures that make it incredibly difficult to bully my character, thus allowing me to be able to have a little more control over the encounter. But it is kind of sad that I even have to do this.
One thing I've also always been big on, is that we can't always expect the bad guys to win, and thus often in our RP events, we let the good guys kill us in the end. But then there are times when we will react in full force to defend ourselves, depending on the situation.
This is quite true. I also think that because there have been many players over the years who really are just griefers and PKers, that people tend to gravitate straight to that way of thinking.
>>I won't presume to tell you what to do. You have much more experience at this than I do. But if it were me, I think the #1 thing on my mind in every interaction would be: How is the guy on the other side of this conflict seeing this? Are we on the same page? What can I do to better signal my intentions without making this feel contrived? My mind is always on the other player because if they aren't with me by the end of it, then I'm far too close to being a disruption rather than something to be experienced. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, that will happen anyway.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I don't wish to be given any advice at all! Honestly, even stuff I already know, it sometimes helps to be reminded of. And people may very well have good advice for us, which I am always grateful for.
One of the hardest parts, I find, is that all it takes is one player to ruin everything. In fact, in all my years of roleplaying this type of role, if there's one thing I've learned, it's almost ALWAYS the "good" guys, that attack first. There is a lot of hypocrisy that you have to deal with when taking on this role, because so often people will react in ways that are far worse than anything you did or would ever do to them. If only I could count the number of times I've been griefed by these "good" players! People will try to bully you, inflict as much harm as they possibly can against you, and worst of all, will use OOC avenues to perform cruel character assassinations against you and/or your organization. Now, you won't see me complain about most of those things - I just see it as coming with the territory. But it is a source of many headaches and frustration that I think few are willing to muddle through.
A lot of the progress I have made against this, IC, is to build up measures that make it incredibly difficult to bully my character, thus allowing me to be able to have a little more control over the encounter. But it is kind of sad that I even have to do this.
One thing I've also always been big on, is that we can't always expect the bad guys to win, and thus often in our RP events, we let the good guys kill us in the end. But then there are times when we will react in full force to defend ourselves, depending on the situation.
ARMSTRONGR1
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 01:33 PM CDT
This conversation reminds me of years ago. There was a group a assassins. They did a fantastic job of announcing their intent, who hired them and why.
It was great fun to watch!
Goldstr
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/25/2019 11:15 PM CDT
<Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I don't wish to be given any advice at all! Honestly, even stuff I already know, it sometimes helps to be reminded of. And people may very well have good advice for us, which I am always grateful <for.
I was just fishing for a discussion like this one.
<One of the hardest parts, I find, is that all it takes is one player to ruin everything. In fact, in all my years of roleplaying this type of role, if there's one thing I've learned, it's almost ALWAYS the "good" guys, that attack <first. There is a lot of hypocrisy that you have to deal with when taking on this role, because so often people will react in ways that are far worse than anything you did or would ever do to them. If only I could count the number <of times I've been griefed by these "good" players! People will try to bully you, inflict as much harm as they possibly can against you, and worst of all, will use OOC avenues to perform cruel character assassinations against you <and/or your organization. Now, you won't see me complain about most of those things - I just see it as coming with the territory. But it is a source of many headaches and frustration that I think few are willing to muddle through.
<A lot of the progress I have made against this, IC, is to build up measures that make it incredibly difficult to bully my character, thus allowing me to be able to have a little more control over the encounter. But it is kind of <sad that I even have to do this.
<One thing I've also always been big on, is that we can't always expect the bad guys to win, and thus often in our RP events, we let the good guys kill us in the end. But then there are times when we will react in full force to <defend ourselves, depending on the situation.
The PvP gamer in me was outraged at how terribly balanced this game is, even while I appreciated the irony of one of the more vocal opponents of poor class balance using this game's laughably awful mechanics to make an angry mob of self-righteous do-gooders stand by looking pretty foolish and ineffective! You even used it in one of your taunts, something to the effect of "You think because you can slay mindless critters, that you can defeat me?" That was good!
But you're right, the good guys usually make the first move. With right on your side, it's hard to let those calm, mocking taunts and threats go without an escalated response. I believe many (if not most!) players are not accustomed to thinking about the separation between themselves and their characters. It isn't particularly relevant in most of your day-to-day, non-conflict scenarios. But in conflict, it's easy to forget that what's happening to your character is not happening to you and why that's so important to remember.
We aren't climbing the rating ladder here. Roleplaying is more like actors on a stage. The "bad guy" isn't really your opponent and you shouldn't be throwing your XBox controller at the screen when you "lose" (because you play GS on your Xbox, right?).
On the flip side of that coin, the bad guy has to keep in mind that, unlike a movie or a play, this story never ends. GS is like "Groundhog Day". Every day the good guy and the bad guy wake up alive and well, ready to kill each other if necessary. These conflicts demand some sort of resolution, and that's rather difficult to pull off if both players hate each other and neither one is willing to give an inch. Things go much more smoothly if the conflict remains strictly between the characters! If you're the one playing the bad guy, giving a little more on your end and perhaps expecting a little less from your adversary goes a long way toward steering a conflict in the right direction.
~Taverkin
I was just fishing for a discussion like this one.
<One of the hardest parts, I find, is that all it takes is one player to ruin everything. In fact, in all my years of roleplaying this type of role, if there's one thing I've learned, it's almost ALWAYS the "good" guys, that attack <first. There is a lot of hypocrisy that you have to deal with when taking on this role, because so often people will react in ways that are far worse than anything you did or would ever do to them. If only I could count the number <of times I've been griefed by these "good" players! People will try to bully you, inflict as much harm as they possibly can against you, and worst of all, will use OOC avenues to perform cruel character assassinations against you <and/or your organization. Now, you won't see me complain about most of those things - I just see it as coming with the territory. But it is a source of many headaches and frustration that I think few are willing to muddle through.
<A lot of the progress I have made against this, IC, is to build up measures that make it incredibly difficult to bully my character, thus allowing me to be able to have a little more control over the encounter. But it is kind of <sad that I even have to do this.
<One thing I've also always been big on, is that we can't always expect the bad guys to win, and thus often in our RP events, we let the good guys kill us in the end. But then there are times when we will react in full force to <defend ourselves, depending on the situation.
The PvP gamer in me was outraged at how terribly balanced this game is, even while I appreciated the irony of one of the more vocal opponents of poor class balance using this game's laughably awful mechanics to make an angry mob of self-righteous do-gooders stand by looking pretty foolish and ineffective! You even used it in one of your taunts, something to the effect of "You think because you can slay mindless critters, that you can defeat me?" That was good!
But you're right, the good guys usually make the first move. With right on your side, it's hard to let those calm, mocking taunts and threats go without an escalated response. I believe many (if not most!) players are not accustomed to thinking about the separation between themselves and their characters. It isn't particularly relevant in most of your day-to-day, non-conflict scenarios. But in conflict, it's easy to forget that what's happening to your character is not happening to you and why that's so important to remember.
We aren't climbing the rating ladder here. Roleplaying is more like actors on a stage. The "bad guy" isn't really your opponent and you shouldn't be throwing your XBox controller at the screen when you "lose" (because you play GS on your Xbox, right?).
On the flip side of that coin, the bad guy has to keep in mind that, unlike a movie or a play, this story never ends. GS is like "Groundhog Day". Every day the good guy and the bad guy wake up alive and well, ready to kill each other if necessary. These conflicts demand some sort of resolution, and that's rather difficult to pull off if both players hate each other and neither one is willing to give an inch. Things go much more smoothly if the conflict remains strictly between the characters! If you're the one playing the bad guy, giving a little more on your end and perhaps expecting a little less from your adversary goes a long way toward steering a conflict in the right direction.
~Taverkin
MEKK51
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/26/2019 11:42 AM CDT
It's hard to do because it's strictly against policy. I would think that an organization that accepts "hits" from people to know the policy on PKing pretty well. We aren't your beta testers. Learn the policies and then figure out what you will be able to do with your organization.
~Sabotage
~Sabotage
CIDHIGHWIND
Re: Playing the Bad Guy
10/26/2019 01:28 PM CDT
Actually, it wasn't our organization. It was carried out as part of a RP storyline by another group, who asked one of our members to do it, and he mistakenly associated it with our group in a private LNET chat.
Also, you had absolutely no part in what happened, so you don't have all the facts. A lot of assumptions and judgements are sure being made, coming from people I don't think have ever interacted with the Black Hand in one of our RP events.
Anyways, I really don't care to get into this here. If you want to see what we're about as a group, hopefully you'll see us in game some time and have an opportunity for some RP. Coming here in this format to try and tear down my group and tarnish its reputation is just sad, and is trying to accomplish what? Clearly we are doing some good for the community, seeing as this post was made about us.
Also, you had absolutely no part in what happened, so you don't have all the facts. A lot of assumptions and judgements are sure being made, coming from people I don't think have ever interacted with the Black Hand in one of our RP events.
Anyways, I really don't care to get into this here. If you want to see what we're about as a group, hopefully you'll see us in game some time and have an opportunity for some RP. Coming here in this format to try and tear down my group and tarnish its reputation is just sad, and is trying to accomplish what? Clearly we are doing some good for the community, seeing as this post was made about us.
