This area needs to be re-conceptualized given the recent changes to disarm mechanics. Today, I have been disarmed so many times it is stupid. I have 94 dodge, 5 CM disarm, 5 CM cunning defense. Before the changes, it was almost impossible to disarm me. Now, even a few percentage chance is lethal. Being disarmed as a sorcerer is not the same as being disarmed as a warrior, especially not with the stacking RT of the many critters in OTF that have no business being in there in the first place. In addition to this disarm joy, I'm also now getting whacked by the many scouts that are materializing into the area from other people. These are only 89 commonly, yet with the new maneuver open rolls can now attack me with them successfully, which can then also trigger their lightning flaring weapons. Great, except I can't learn from them. Force versus Force calculations then also work against me for being in a swarm. This area needs to be worked on for balance. We can't use bot armies as the standard against which areas are designed for balance anymore. Add the group dispersal mechanics of the Rift, if you must, but please make this area tenable again for solo hunting sorcerers.
Tarakan
TARAKAN
BIGDOG2178
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/29/2021 03:22 PM CDT
I'm not sure I understand how you are getting such bad results. This is my capped Sorc in OTF:
You exhale a virulent green mist toward an Ithzir scout, but she is unaffected.
An Ithzir champion swings her crystal-capped maul at your runestaff!
[SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 88, Penalty: 7)]
An Ithzir champion connects!
Your runestaff is knocked from your grasp and out of sight!
[Use the RECOVER ITEM command while in the appropriate room to regain your item.]
0 dodge, 0 CM, 101 Ranks Perception, and I only have a 50% chance to get him. What you are saying doesn't compute.
You exhale a virulent green mist toward an Ithzir scout, but she is unaffected.
An Ithzir champion swings her crystal-capped maul at your runestaff!
[SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 88, Penalty: 7)]
An Ithzir champion connects!
Your runestaff is knocked from your grasp and out of sight!
[Use the RECOVER ITEM command while in the appropriate room to regain your item.]
0 dodge, 0 CM, 101 Ranks Perception, and I only have a 50% chance to get him. What you are saying doesn't compute.
BIGDOG2178
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/29/2021 03:25 PM CDT
I'm not sure I understand how you are getting such bad results. This is my capped Sorc in OTF:
You exhale a virulent green mist toward an Ithzir scout, but she is unaffected.
An Ithzir champion swings her crystal-capped maul at your runestaff!
[SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 88, Penalty: 7)]
An Ithzir champion connects!
Your runestaff is knocked from your grasp and out of sight!
[Use the RECOVER ITEM command while in the appropriate room to regain your item.]
0 dodge, 0 CM, 101 Ranks Perception, and I only have a 50% chance to get hit. What you are saying doesn't compute for me.
Rather than just post a complaint without data to work from, can you post a few end rolls you've seen, and your skills/stats and Spell Active from a standard hunt?
You exhale a virulent green mist toward an Ithzir scout, but she is unaffected.
An Ithzir champion swings her crystal-capped maul at your runestaff!
[SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 88, Penalty: 7)]
An Ithzir champion connects!
Your runestaff is knocked from your grasp and out of sight!
[Use the RECOVER ITEM command while in the appropriate room to regain your item.]
0 dodge, 0 CM, 101 Ranks Perception, and I only have a 50% chance to get hit. What you are saying doesn't compute for me.
Rather than just post a complaint without data to work from, can you post a few end rolls you've seen, and your skills/stats and Spell Active from a standard hunt?
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/30/2021 02:46 PM CDT
| I'm not sure I understand how you are getting such bad results. This is my capped Sorc in OTF: |
| You exhale a virulent green mist toward an Ithzir scout, but she is unaffected. |
| An Ithzir champion swings her crystal-capped maul at your runestaff! |
| [SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 88, Penalty: 7)] |
| An Ithzir champion connects! |
| Your runestaff is knocked from your grasp and out of sight! |
| [Use the RECOVER ITEM command while in the appropriate room to regain your item.] |
| 0 dodge, 0 CM, 101 Ranks Perception, and I only have a 50% chance to get hit. What you are saying doesn't compute for me. |
| Rather than just post a complaint without data to work from, can you post a few end rolls you've seen, and your skills/stats and Spell Active from a standard hunt? |
Data doesn't help. They don't care about the extra punishment forced upon pures and semis with the downward adjustment of the SMR defense they pushed out about 6 months ago.
Any pure lost upwards of at least 15 points of SMR defense. When you already had (not counting open rolls) around a 15-20% chance of getting tagged by a SMR based skill/spell/maneuver, then the adjustment downwards during the PSM2 release, you ended up at a 30-40% chance of getting hit with a SMR based skill/spell/maneuver.
My warmage isn't capped by any means, but he lost 13 points to his SMR defense. He's 1x in PF, Perception and CM. He's level 57 and has 58 more ranks in CM than any pre-capped or just capped cookie-cutter pure. Plus he has 2 ranks of Cunning Defense (2 ranks more than most pre-capped or newly capped pure). He went from about a 15% chance to getting hit by SMR attacks where he hunts to around almost 30% chance when he's in guarded/defensive stance.
Also, cranking out ranks isn't going to boost your SMR defense very fast. Based on my testing and not knowing the formula, it appears that every 101 ranks of combine PF/Dodge/Perception/CM will give a capped character around 13 points of SMR defense. That means around 1 point of SMR defense every 7-8 combined ranks.
You now have 1 safe bet way to try and offset skills that do damage do you and that is to wear the heaviest armor (highest AsG) you can live with to help reduce hits due to a higher crit divisor. In scale armor my warmage takes no instant crit kills from CMANs. Compared to my pure in full leather, he can be impaled somewhat easily or my one pure that's in robes and he takes an endroll of 102 to the head from a charge he's dead. Yep, 102 endroll and he's dead. It's happened half a dozen times and it sucks every time.
Now, queue in the folks that will run in here and say stupid things such as....
"Pures were defending like monks and now they're not. It's a good thing!"
"With the PSM3 changes coming and the use of Disengage, maybe pures should have their SMR defense reduced even more."
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/30/2021 04:14 PM CDT
>> Data doesn't help.
Data is probably the only way you are going to make a successful argument for change on this.
>> You now have 1 safe bet way to try and offset skills that do damage do you and that is to wear the heaviest armor (highest AsG) you can live with to help reduce hits due to a higher crit divisor.
Armor crit padding is also your friend here. As are warrior armor adjustments (fittings) that can be applied depending on where you are hunting.
-- Robert
>> A mongrel kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"
Data is probably the only way you are going to make a successful argument for change on this.
>> You now have 1 safe bet way to try and offset skills that do damage do you and that is to wear the heaviest armor (highest AsG) you can live with to help reduce hits due to a higher crit divisor.
Armor crit padding is also your friend here. As are warrior armor adjustments (fittings) that can be applied depending on where you are hunting.
-- Robert
>> A mongrel kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"
GS4-NAIJIN
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/30/2021 09:28 PM CDT
> You now have 1 safe bet way to try and offset skills that do damage do you and that is to wear the heaviest armor (highest AsG) you can live with to help reduce hits due to a higher crit divisor. In scale armor my warmage takes no instant crit kills from CMANs. Compared to my pure in full leather, he can be impaled somewhat easily or my one pure that's in robes and he takes an endroll of 102 to the head from a charge he's dead. Yep, 102 endroll and he's dead. It's happened half a dozen times and it sucks every time.
This isn't how armor works with anything presently using SMR. Manuevers (like charge) and SMR based attacks do damage similar to how spells do damage. There is no crit divisor in play like you would see in the AS/DS system.
There is an armor based reduction, but the absolute maximum gain is the equivalent of 8 CER of crit padding. That's comparing robes to plate. Leather is a difference of 6 padding, scale is 4 and chain 2.
Wizards also have access to 520 which is making up for 5 of that baseline and up to +2 over what plate can maximally provide. Furthermore, heavier armor reduces your SMR defense so you're more likely to get hit.
Finally, if your war mage didn't change training and hunts in offensive like a war mage typically does they shouldn't have seen much of an SMR defense change at all. Feel free to post logs of before and after to prove otherwise.
This isn't how armor works with anything presently using SMR. Manuevers (like charge) and SMR based attacks do damage similar to how spells do damage. There is no crit divisor in play like you would see in the AS/DS system.
There is an armor based reduction, but the absolute maximum gain is the equivalent of 8 CER of crit padding. That's comparing robes to plate. Leather is a difference of 6 padding, scale is 4 and chain 2.
Wizards also have access to 520 which is making up for 5 of that baseline and up to +2 over what plate can maximally provide. Furthermore, heavier armor reduces your SMR defense so you're more likely to get hit.
Finally, if your war mage didn't change training and hunts in offensive like a war mage typically does they shouldn't have seen much of an SMR defense change at all. Feel free to post logs of before and after to prove otherwise.
JTU
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/31/2021 11:12 AM CDT
I'm not going to touch the more complex topics like whether maneuvers as they are now are balanced, fun or overall good for the game. I'm sure Dev is already monitoring the feedback on those.
However, Bbrodgriguez's assessment on armor fits my personal experience, as well. The bulk of the maneuvers I encounter are stuff that disables me through mechanics such as stance down, knock down, stuns, roundtime, etc, and leaves me more vulnerable to subsequent AS/DS attacks. Incidentally they also leave me more vulnerable subsequent maneuvers, which feeds into a vicious cycle that leaves me further vulnerable to the AS/DS stuff I'll eventually be hit with.
Being hit more often with maneuver attacks means I'll be in situations where AS/DS attacks can hit me more often, and armor definitely makes a difference there. With my paladin in plate, being hit with a maneuver and maybe knocked down is nothing. I basically laugh to myself, wait for the round time/stun to clear and go on to slaughter whatever critters that launched the maneuvers to begin with. With my wizard in robes, being hit with a maneuver and knocked down is a serious situation where I'll be activating all my emergency skills to try to stay alive.
Lastly, one small bit of observation. Most mechanics and systems in the game are interrelated and interacts with each other. Isolating a mechanic on its own for analysis can be very helpful, but a purely reductionist way of looking at them as if they are in a vacuum may end up missing sight of the overall big picture. "Heavier armor makes no difference defending against maneuvers" vs "Heavier armor help a lot against critters with maneuvers" are two different statements one can derive from the current game mechanics depending on how one choose to analyze them. Both statements are technically correct. One is probably more useful as advice for game play, and possibly for game balance purposes as well.
However, Bbrodgriguez's assessment on armor fits my personal experience, as well. The bulk of the maneuvers I encounter are stuff that disables me through mechanics such as stance down, knock down, stuns, roundtime, etc, and leaves me more vulnerable to subsequent AS/DS attacks. Incidentally they also leave me more vulnerable subsequent maneuvers, which feeds into a vicious cycle that leaves me further vulnerable to the AS/DS stuff I'll eventually be hit with.
Being hit more often with maneuver attacks means I'll be in situations where AS/DS attacks can hit me more often, and armor definitely makes a difference there. With my paladin in plate, being hit with a maneuver and maybe knocked down is nothing. I basically laugh to myself, wait for the round time/stun to clear and go on to slaughter whatever critters that launched the maneuvers to begin with. With my wizard in robes, being hit with a maneuver and knocked down is a serious situation where I'll be activating all my emergency skills to try to stay alive.
Lastly, one small bit of observation. Most mechanics and systems in the game are interrelated and interacts with each other. Isolating a mechanic on its own for analysis can be very helpful, but a purely reductionist way of looking at them as if they are in a vacuum may end up missing sight of the overall big picture. "Heavier armor makes no difference defending against maneuvers" vs "Heavier armor help a lot against critters with maneuvers" are two different statements one can derive from the current game mechanics depending on how one choose to analyze them. Both statements are technically correct. One is probably more useful as advice for game play, and possibly for game balance purposes as well.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/31/2021 12:40 PM CDT
>Finally, if your war mage didn't change training and hunts in offensive like a war mage typically does they shouldn't have seen much of an SMR defense change at all. Feel free to post logs of before and after to prove otherwise.
You already ran numbers for my warmage once before.
The problem isn't with him hunting as he's attacking things, the problem is when you're just moving through rooms and you're in guarded/defensive. Going from around a 15-20% chance to be hit before the the PSM2 changes to a 30-40% chance to be hit is what sucks the most. If I'm there fighting something in offensive, I haven't felt any or seen any change. When he's in offensive and fighting, I expect to take hits easier....same as my pures that stance to offensive for bolting.
Walk into a room and instantly smacked with a SMR roll that you used to defend from more often than naught is what really sucks. Chances for all pures to be hit, regardless of training as a warmage or cookie-cutter build, has doubled as they move through rooms while in guarded/defensive stance. That double the chance to be hit ends hunts more often or requires me to utilize escape methods more often, thus going through the daily allowed uses sooner.
>Furthermore, heavier armor reduces your SMR defense so you're more likely to get hit.
>There is an armor based reduction, but the absolute maximum gain is the equivalent of 8 CER of crit padding. That's comparing robes to plate. Leather is a difference of 6 padding, scale is 4 and chain 2.
Yes, lower armors might give slightly better SMR defense, but still having a drop of nearly 15 SMR defense on my robe wearing sorcerer makes him much more susceptible to outright dying. He'd walk into a room and have about a 15% chance before to take SMR hits....now he's got about a 30% chance to take hits as he walks into a room. The bonus of wearing fully trained for full leather or lower ASG isn't offset enough by the lack of protection they provide when hit by SMR.
You already ran numbers for my warmage once before.
The problem isn't with him hunting as he's attacking things, the problem is when you're just moving through rooms and you're in guarded/defensive. Going from around a 15-20% chance to be hit before the the PSM2 changes to a 30-40% chance to be hit is what sucks the most. If I'm there fighting something in offensive, I haven't felt any or seen any change. When he's in offensive and fighting, I expect to take hits easier....same as my pures that stance to offensive for bolting.
Walk into a room and instantly smacked with a SMR roll that you used to defend from more often than naught is what really sucks. Chances for all pures to be hit, regardless of training as a warmage or cookie-cutter build, has doubled as they move through rooms while in guarded/defensive stance. That double the chance to be hit ends hunts more often or requires me to utilize escape methods more often, thus going through the daily allowed uses sooner.
>Furthermore, heavier armor reduces your SMR defense so you're more likely to get hit.
>There is an armor based reduction, but the absolute maximum gain is the equivalent of 8 CER of crit padding. That's comparing robes to plate. Leather is a difference of 6 padding, scale is 4 and chain 2.
Yes, lower armors might give slightly better SMR defense, but still having a drop of nearly 15 SMR defense on my robe wearing sorcerer makes him much more susceptible to outright dying. He'd walk into a room and have about a 15% chance before to take SMR hits....now he's got about a 30% chance to take hits as he walks into a room. The bonus of wearing fully trained for full leather or lower ASG isn't offset enough by the lack of protection they provide when hit by SMR.
KRAKII
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/31/2021 01:22 PM CDT
If lower armor actually gives any benefit in SMR defense, it is entirely unnoticeable by the fact that a trivial ("<= 110" == "trivial") result can result in a rank2 head wound (completely stopping casting, because even if you heal it to a rank1, the rank2 scar stops you, too). I literally cannot count the number of times I come back to Reim after dropping off loot & getting healed, climb up the chains, and the first creature I see rolls some piss-ant result, gives me a rank2 and stun and RT, and I turn right back around and go back to my pocket healer.
On the bright side, that healer just made 34th level on essentially "nothing but healing the Bard for six or seven years". So silver linings at least exist for some clouds.
.
Also, Naijin, what you said is in direct contravention of what was confirmed--as I recall, it was quoted from Discord--just a few weeks ago, that YES, armor plays a role in damage from spells and maneuvers, to the tune of worse crits in lighter armor. If that is not fundamentally the same as "crit divisor" (possibly by a different name, but identical effect) then I don't know what is.
On the bright side, that healer just made 34th level on essentially "nothing but healing the Bard for six or seven years". So silver linings at least exist for some clouds.
.
Also, Naijin, what you said is in direct contravention of what was confirmed--as I recall, it was quoted from Discord--just a few weeks ago, that YES, armor plays a role in damage from spells and maneuvers, to the tune of worse crits in lighter armor. If that is not fundamentally the same as "crit divisor" (possibly by a different name, but identical effect) then I don't know what is.
OM1E5GA
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/31/2021 02:27 PM CDT
<However, Bbrodgriguez's assessment on armor fits my personal experience, as well. The bulk of the maneuvers I encounter are stuff that disables me through mechanics such as stance down, knock down, stuns, roundtime, etc, and leaves me more vulnerable to subsequent AS/DS attacks. Incidentally they also leave me more vulnerable subsequent maneuvers, which feeds into a vicious cycle that leaves me further vulnerable to the AS/DS stuff I'll eventually be hit with.>
I've been wondering why it's mostly wizards seeing this as a problem and why there aren't more sorcerers and clerics chiming in on this thread since they're equally squishy. When I was reading this just now, it occurred to me that the later have 716 and 319 respectively, to but wizards don't have anything similar.
While I'm not claiming either of those spells work 100% of the time, both of them are capable of buying time for a character when they enter a room and a critter immediately uses a maneuver... one by (usually) disabling an attacker when it triggers and the other by preventing the attack from getting through at all. Since the time when characters are most vulnerable to the types of maneuvers mentioned in the quote above is when first entering a room, maybe it would go a long way towards addressing this issue if wizards also had a reactive defensive spell akin to 716/319....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I've been wondering why it's mostly wizards seeing this as a problem and why there aren't more sorcerers and clerics chiming in on this thread since they're equally squishy. When I was reading this just now, it occurred to me that the later have 716 and 319 respectively, to but wizards don't have anything similar.
While I'm not claiming either of those spells work 100% of the time, both of them are capable of buying time for a character when they enter a room and a critter immediately uses a maneuver... one by (usually) disabling an attacker when it triggers and the other by preventing the attack from getting through at all. Since the time when characters are most vulnerable to the types of maneuvers mentioned in the quote above is when first entering a room, maybe it would go a long way towards addressing this issue if wizards also had a reactive defensive spell akin to 716/319....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
TARAKAN
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
05/31/2021 09:38 PM CDT
Given that maneuver mechanics are much different now, it is clear that some capped hunting areas need to be calibrated to better reflect balance. OTF North was a significant challenge for many even before these maneuver changes, but now it is simply ridiculous. I believe the mechanics now are too over-powered against sorcerers with our limited set of viable CM skills to train in. Although disarm no longer means item loss, it almost always means death because of the round-time involved. Ithzir champions have a standard TD of 453 with an extra -10 CvA, so they already get a 25% chance to ward my normal spells, and one cast is not enough to kill them typically anyway. They disarm frequently. Seers dispel. Griffins stack long RT. Scouts and Janissaries should only rarely be in this area, but there is clearly some bug that is allowing them to enter in great numbers. Most scouts are only 89 yet they can still hit me easily with an open roll maneuver. Janissaries also disarm. Constructs are annoyances that add to force versus force when in the room.
Bot hunters frequent this area now creating swarms. It is rare when a solo hunter can expect to face one foe in a room.
I suggested elsewhere that one solution would be to tweak the mechanics with new training options to restore some of the lost defense specific to disarm. Runestaves are two-handed weapons, so why should someone gripping a weapon with both hands be as vulnerable to disarm as someone with one hand on it? Let me train in two-handed weapons and gain back some defense against the open roll, or add a new CM just for pures to lower CS in exchange for higher grip on the weapon to augment maneuver defense. Something!
If not that angle, the other way to solve this problem would be to lower the maneuver rates of the critters in OTF. Make disarm and griffin screech and dispel much rarer events to restore the balance. Do something about the scouts in the area too. A GM should not need to see examples of why players find something odious...they should copy the character in the test mode and play the area for a while to see for themselves. It is self-evident that these changes stink in OTF North.
Tarakan
Bot hunters frequent this area now creating swarms. It is rare when a solo hunter can expect to face one foe in a room.
I suggested elsewhere that one solution would be to tweak the mechanics with new training options to restore some of the lost defense specific to disarm. Runestaves are two-handed weapons, so why should someone gripping a weapon with both hands be as vulnerable to disarm as someone with one hand on it? Let me train in two-handed weapons and gain back some defense against the open roll, or add a new CM just for pures to lower CS in exchange for higher grip on the weapon to augment maneuver defense. Something!
If not that angle, the other way to solve this problem would be to lower the maneuver rates of the critters in OTF. Make disarm and griffin screech and dispel much rarer events to restore the balance. Do something about the scouts in the area too. A GM should not need to see examples of why players find something odious...they should copy the character in the test mode and play the area for a while to see for themselves. It is self-evident that these changes stink in OTF North.
Tarakan
OM1E5GA
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 01:21 AM CDT
<Runestaves are two-handed weapons, so why should someone gripping a weapon with both hands be as vulnerable to disarm as someone with one hand on it?>
Not that there's any degree of actual realism in GS combat, but just holding a weapon in two hands doesn't automatically make them harder to disarm then just holding them in one hand.... some two-handed grips don't prevent disarming any more then one-handed ones. Plus, I never really pictured runestaves as being held in two hands despite their two-handed designation.... just difficult when some of my characters have a wand in their hand as often as not.
If your assessment of the swarming conditions there is accurate, it prolly would be a good idea to look at the spawn rate and/or make it so Provoke doesn't work there (I'd dance a jig if that spell ever went away permanently). I know how frustrating it is when critters are popping in and out so fast you can't keep track of anything cause one (or more) of those MA groups is running around stirring everything up for hours on end. Seems to happen for a couple days every month in the Citadel until those jerks reach their loot cap....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Not that there's any degree of actual realism in GS combat, but just holding a weapon in two hands doesn't automatically make them harder to disarm then just holding them in one hand.... some two-handed grips don't prevent disarming any more then one-handed ones. Plus, I never really pictured runestaves as being held in two hands despite their two-handed designation.... just difficult when some of my characters have a wand in their hand as often as not.
If your assessment of the swarming conditions there is accurate, it prolly would be a good idea to look at the spawn rate and/or make it so Provoke doesn't work there (I'd dance a jig if that spell ever went away permanently). I know how frustrating it is when critters are popping in and out so fast you can't keep track of anything cause one (or more) of those MA groups is running around stirring everything up for hours on end. Seems to happen for a couple days every month in the Citadel until those jerks reach their loot cap....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
GS4-NAIJIN
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 07:09 AM CDT
> Also, Naijin, what you said is in direct contravention of what was confirmed--as I recall, it was quoted from Discord--just a few weeks ago, that YES, armor plays a role in damage from spells and maneuvers, to the tune of worse crits in lighter armor. If that is not fundamentally the same as "crit divisor" (possibly by a different name, but identical effect) then I don't know what is.
It's not identical to crit divisor and how it applies to damage reduction. It is, however, identical to crit padding and how it applies to damage reduction.
It's not identical to crit divisor and how it applies to damage reduction. It is, however, identical to crit padding and how it applies to damage reduction.
GS4-NAIJIN
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 07:16 AM CDT
> I've been wondering why it's mostly wizards seeing this as a problem and why there aren't more sorcerers and clerics chiming in on this thread since they're equally squishy. When I was reading this just now, it occurred to me that the later have 716 and 319 respectively, to but wizards don't have anything similar.
Wizards have 540 which acts similar to 319. 319 will outright block the attempt regardless of if it would have hit the player or not. 540 will add a bonus roll to 10-25% (based on EMC) only to the maneuvers that would have hit you. The end result is a reduction to being hit for both 319 and 540 with slightly different ways of going about it. Empaths have the option to train more PF which increases their base SMR defense. Sorcerers have slightly better raw spell bonus potential through 704 because they don't have the defensive options of the other pures.
> While I'm not claiming either of those spells work 100% of the time, both of them are capable of buying time for a character when they enter a room and a critter immediately uses a maneuver... one by (usually) disabling an attacker when it triggers and the other by preventing the attack from getting through at all. Since the time when characters are most vulnerable to the types of maneuvers mentioned in the quote above is when first entering a room, maybe it would go a long way towards addressing this issue if wizards also had a reactive defensive spell akin to 716/319....
319 will activate on the first attack from a creature no matter what it is. That's a pro in some scenarios (bandits come to mind), and a con in others. 540 only activates when hit which is, in my opinion, slightly superior to 319 given enough Elemental Mana Control ranks.
Wizards have 540 which acts similar to 319. 319 will outright block the attempt regardless of if it would have hit the player or not. 540 will add a bonus roll to 10-25% (based on EMC) only to the maneuvers that would have hit you. The end result is a reduction to being hit for both 319 and 540 with slightly different ways of going about it. Empaths have the option to train more PF which increases their base SMR defense. Sorcerers have slightly better raw spell bonus potential through 704 because they don't have the defensive options of the other pures.
> While I'm not claiming either of those spells work 100% of the time, both of them are capable of buying time for a character when they enter a room and a critter immediately uses a maneuver... one by (usually) disabling an attacker when it triggers and the other by preventing the attack from getting through at all. Since the time when characters are most vulnerable to the types of maneuvers mentioned in the quote above is when first entering a room, maybe it would go a long way towards addressing this issue if wizards also had a reactive defensive spell akin to 716/319....
319 will activate on the first attack from a creature no matter what it is. That's a pro in some scenarios (bandits come to mind), and a con in others. 540 only activates when hit which is, in my opinion, slightly superior to 319 given enough Elemental Mana Control ranks.
OM1E5GA
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 08:16 AM CDT
<540 only activates when hit which is, in my opinion, slightly superior to 319 given enough Elemental Mana Control ranks.>
I, on the other hand, will be grateful I don't play a wizard. My cleric, in his 30's, more often then not outright evades the first attack of anything in the areas he hunts... which buys him a chance to either disable the offender or get out of Dodge. Meanwhile, the poor wizards get a spell 20 levels later that doesn't look like it will ever activate even half as often and are likely to still get hit by the maneuver anyway... esp at cap where whatever attacked them is prolly above their level and swarming.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I, on the other hand, will be grateful I don't play a wizard. My cleric, in his 30's, more often then not outright evades the first attack of anything in the areas he hunts... which buys him a chance to either disable the offender or get out of Dodge. Meanwhile, the poor wizards get a spell 20 levels later that doesn't look like it will ever activate even half as often and are likely to still get hit by the maneuver anyway... esp at cap where whatever attacked them is prolly above their level and swarming.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 04:36 PM CDT
>I, on the other hand, will be grateful I don't play a wizard. My cleric, in his 30's, more often then not outright evades the first attack of anything in the areas he hunts... which buys him a chance to either disable the offender or get out of Dodge. Meanwhile, the poor wizards get a spell 20 levels later that doesn't look like it will ever activate even half as often and are likely to still get hit by the maneuver anyway... esp at cap where whatever attacked them is prolly above their level and swarming.
I love 540 - I mean, I would if it weren't for the crap that happens a lot (see table below). It has a 23% chance to trigger for my capped wizard.
What I enjoy the most about it is when the spell triggers and "snaps you back in time to better defend yourself", but the second attack attempt usually plays out like this:
I don't understand why the creature gets a brand new roll attempt. The initial roll should be used. If the added defense from 540 triggering doesn't provide enough extra to still defend, then yes, the attack should hit. But the whole idea of a brand new roll on the second attempt when you're "pulled" back in time better defend against an attack that was going to hit you....it makes zero sense. You're pulled back in time to defend against the attack that you know is coming.....why is a new second roll provided to the attacker?
I love 540 - I mean, I would if it weren't for the crap that happens a lot (see table below). It has a 23% chance to trigger for my capped wizard.
What I enjoy the most about it is when the spell triggers and "snaps you back in time to better defend yourself", but the second attack attempt usually plays out like this:
| [SMR result: 115 (open d100: 38)] |
| An Ithzir janissary swings a heavy star-flanged mace at your runestaff and connects! |
| Your surroundings melt away as the air around you shivers with a large flux of mana. Abruptly, time wrenches violently to give you a second chance. This time, you're better prepared. |
| [SMR result: 285 (open d100: 258)] |
| An Ithzir janissary swings a heavy star-flanged mace at your runestaff and connects! |
| Your runestaff is knocked into the environs! |
| the numbers are made up, but the open roll on the second attempt is not. I'm constantly (more often than naught) struck by a massive open roll on the second attempt and I'm still disarmed or hit with whatever maneuver is used on me |
I don't understand why the creature gets a brand new roll attempt. The initial roll should be used. If the added defense from 540 triggering doesn't provide enough extra to still defend, then yes, the attack should hit. But the whole idea of a brand new roll on the second attempt when you're "pulled" back in time better defend against an attack that was going to hit you....it makes zero sense. You're pulled back in time to defend against the attack that you know is coming.....why is a new second roll provided to the attacker?
KANDOR
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 05:46 PM CDT
Having 540 use the original roll would make more sense. It will likely still be a toss-up, though -- statistically there are just as many chances that the first roll will be open as the second.
OM1E5GA
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 07:00 PM CDT
I prolly should have specifically stated (though it was implied in my last post) that, with every profession I play (cleric, empath, sorcerer, rogue, ranger, and warrior) the outcome of 90% or more of all my encounters with critters are determined by the first attack of each party and whether or not it's successful. My strategies for all of them are geared towards making sure my first attack kills/disables and ensuring I can survive their first attack if they happen to get one in before I can act. Drawn out do engagements happen, but it's not often that any critter I'm facing is getting a second chance to use a maneuver (or any other attack) cause I've either disabled them or recognized they're too tough for me and retreated. The only situations I can think of where I'd prefer 540 over 319 would actually be bandits (cause of their traps) and invasions (cause it's so chaotic).
540 might be a nice spell when it goes off and saves yer butt, but between it's low chance of actually triggering and a decent chance that it won't actually save the character, I would never rely on it.... and really don't think it's worthy of being a level 40 spell when two comparable spells less then half as high up their lists have at least twice the chance of going off AND will either nullify an attack or disable the attacker more often then not when they do.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
540 might be a nice spell when it goes off and saves yer butt, but between it's low chance of actually triggering and a decent chance that it won't actually save the character, I would never rely on it.... and really don't think it's worthy of being a level 40 spell when two comparable spells less then half as high up their lists have at least twice the chance of going off AND will either nullify an attack or disable the attacker more often then not when they do.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
GS4-NAIJIN
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/01/2021 08:00 PM CDT
> 540 might be a nice spell when it goes off and saves yer butt, but between it's low chance of actually triggering and a decent chance that it won't actually save the character, I would never rely on it.... and really don't think it's worthy of being a level 40 spell when two comparable spells less then half as high up their lists have at least twice the chance of going off AND will either nullify an attack or disable the attacker more often then not when they do.
The proc rate of 319 is 100% provided you ward. The caveat there is that it procs even when you didn't need it. Can't be hit by AS, ever? Too bad. The first attack is still absorbed. Can't be warded? Same thing. Something swung at you in another room and then you run by them 20 seconds later and take a SMR charge? It's not going to block that since the charge was "wasted" on the AS attack. 319 is certainly powerful, but that point is often overlooked by players.
540 only procs when you get hit. So it may only trigger 25% of the time, but that 25% of the time will almost always benefit you.
The proc rate of 319 is 100% provided you ward. The caveat there is that it procs even when you didn't need it. Can't be hit by AS, ever? Too bad. The first attack is still absorbed. Can't be warded? Same thing. Something swung at you in another room and then you run by them 20 seconds later and take a SMR charge? It's not going to block that since the charge was "wasted" on the AS attack. 319 is certainly powerful, but that point is often overlooked by players.
540 only procs when you get hit. So it may only trigger 25% of the time, but that 25% of the time will almost always benefit you.
OM1E5GA
Re: Old Ta'Faendryl NORTH is horrendous now
06/02/2021 04:26 AM CDT
<Something swung at you in another room and then you run by them 20 seconds later and take a SMR charge?>
I'm not saying this situation never happens to me, but it's def infrequent at best and not something that affects my assessment. The majority of critters I come into contact with only encounter me once.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I'm not saying this situation never happens to me, but it's def infrequent at best and not something that affects my assessment. The majority of critters I come into contact with only encounter me once.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
