Earthen Fury needs a review for critters. It's just too lethal a spell to be thrown around in the mid 20s. Changing Boil Earth to one of the most powerful spells in the game had incidental. Do you really think all these areas with critters that formerly cast boil earth should now have a spell that deadly?
ZENNSUNNI
KRAKII
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 05:21 AM CST
2 second cycles is just to )@!&#*&@#^$%ing fast for this spell, since we're stuck with THREE seconds for mitigating effects (castRT) and there is always delay from a) because "internet" and b) because "human" reactions.
I would pretty much be alright with the spells damage (mostly...) if you could just get a CHANCE to work with it.
I would pretty much be alright with the spells damage (mostly...) if you could just get a CHANCE to work with it.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 06:48 AM CST
>Earthen Fury needs a review for critters. It's just too lethal a spell to be thrown around in the mid 20s. Changing Boil Earth to one of the most powerful spells in the game had incidental. Do you really think all these areas with critters that formerly cast boil earth should now have a spell that deadly?
If it makes you feel any better, I know there was a post some time back (can't remember what GM said it or if it was in this forum or the archived forum wizard folder somewhere) - spell 917 lethality had been reduced for creatures under level 30 (I think it's level 30....give or take 5 levels).
The spell has been toned down a little for those lower level creatures that cast it. I know it's not much in terms of easing your mind, but it has been adjusted down some.
If it makes you feel any better, I know there was a post some time back (can't remember what GM said it or if it was in this forum or the archived forum wizard folder somewhere) - spell 917 lethality had been reduced for creatures under level 30 (I think it's level 30....give or take 5 levels).
The spell has been toned down a little for those lower level creatures that cast it. I know it's not much in terms of easing your mind, but it has been adjusted down some.
RATHBONER
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 09:00 AM CST
>The spell has been toned down a little for those lower level creatures that cast it. I know it's not much in terms of easing your mind, but it has been adjusted down some.
Its had something like 3 cycles of toning down so far and is still out of order. It needs getting rid of. I can't think of any level 20 critters that are notorious for casting implosion whenever given half a chance, and there shouldn't be any level 20 critters casting 917 either.
Its had something like 3 cycles of toning down so far and is still out of order. It needs getting rid of. I can't think of any level 20 critters that are notorious for casting implosion whenever given half a chance, and there shouldn't be any level 20 critters casting 917 either.
DOUG
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 09:06 AM CST
Supposing for just a moment that the reasons for this spell being cast by 20th level creatures were set aside there is an important question to answer:
At what level should the spell become available to NPCs?
Doug
At what level should the spell become available to NPCs?
Doug
KANDOR
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 12:04 PM CST
The old boil earth was bad enough for level 17, but earthen fury is more powerful than some offensive spells in the 30-35 level range. I'd suggest increasing the cycle time to something like 5 sec for all of these SMRv2 DoT spells, but allow players (only) to reduce the cycle time with training in lores, mana control, whatever. That way it still hurts when used by a critter, and can kill, but fairly accounts for things like reaction time, connection speed, lag, and similar things that are more likely to affect a human player than a mob.
KRAKII
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 02:20 PM CST
"The old boil earth was bad enough for level 17" -- Kandor
And speaking to the other side...
MAYBE it was because I was a (notionally) nimble Elf, and using Tonis most of the time (from being a Bard), and getting Mobility & Mass Blur most of the time (from multi-accounting)... but honestly, those two spells are widely available by the time you're hunting 55/58 level (stone trolls & stone giants).
And I moved up there at 48th level, so "ten below the giants": notionally they should have been laying waste to me.
And MAYBE it was because I was a quick convert to the SimuCoin "-100 pounds of encumbrance."
<shrug>
But whatever the cause, I could literally count on both hands the number of times that "Boil Earth actually hurting me" happened. It may even have been possible on ONE hand, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. The spell was laughable.
(Again, under those circumstances. Elf, with low encumbrance, and Tonis & MB and Mobiles to boost.)
I was a lot more scared of the wind pushing me off of the up/down rooms up to the peak, falling off the mountainside, and getting killed. (And that happened like... twice. Ever.)
.
Earthen Fury came around when I was inside the Stronghold at the top of the stairs, dealing with "62nd-level-mastiffs/mystics and up to shamen"...
...and the 58th level stone giants--the WEAKEST target in the entire area--were my "OhCrapKillItNowBeforeItCasts" opponent.
.
But I still have a bone to pick with the 2-second cycles.
(Hint to GMs: They're TOO FAST.)
And speaking to the other side...
MAYBE it was because I was a (notionally) nimble Elf, and using Tonis most of the time (from being a Bard), and getting Mobility & Mass Blur most of the time (from multi-accounting)... but honestly, those two spells are widely available by the time you're hunting 55/58 level (stone trolls & stone giants).
And I moved up there at 48th level, so "ten below the giants": notionally they should have been laying waste to me.
And MAYBE it was because I was a quick convert to the SimuCoin "-100 pounds of encumbrance."
<shrug>
But whatever the cause, I could literally count on both hands the number of times that "Boil Earth actually hurting me" happened. It may even have been possible on ONE hand, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. The spell was laughable.
(Again, under those circumstances. Elf, with low encumbrance, and Tonis & MB and Mobiles to boost.)
I was a lot more scared of the wind pushing me off of the up/down rooms up to the peak, falling off the mountainside, and getting killed. (And that happened like... twice. Ever.)
.
Earthen Fury came around when I was inside the Stronghold at the top of the stairs, dealing with "62nd-level-mastiffs/mystics and up to shamen"...
...and the 58th level stone giants--the WEAKEST target in the entire area--were my "OhCrapKillItNowBeforeItCasts" opponent.
.
But I still have a bone to pick with the 2-second cycles.
(Hint to GMs: They're TOO FAST.)
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 04:26 PM CST
When I was hunting mezics in the foggy valley, they were mixed in the tree spirits. I want to say my reduxmage (who didn't have any redux then) was level 31 or 32 at the time, and being a dwarf and in leather breastplate he should have been begging for earthen fury to decimate him. Surprisingly out of the handful of levels hunting there he never died to 917. He had it cast at him numerous times, but only got hit by it just a couple of times. He was pretty good at dodging those pesky 917 casts from tree spirits; they pretty much needed an open roll to hit him.
I wonder if he would have the same luck with the adjusted SMRv2 that's been pushed out. Right now he seems to have about 10-15 points less in his defense from the boars and vipers in the black forest than he did before the SMRv2 adjustments...I'd venture to guess he may have had some deaths from 917 if these SMRv2 changes were out there when he was hunting the foggy valley.
I do remember when my level 20 bard would just get melted by 917 from the wood wights. First cast melted him = dead. Second time cast at him, it melted him. Tried a third time to do his bounty of killing some wood wights and he died from blood loss by the 4th crit cycle of 917. It was a short while after this painful run in with wood wights and 917 that the GM reduced the power of creature version of the spell and I think it was for level 30 and under. I never bothered to try hunting them again, they loved to cast the spell way too often and I'd rather not die because of it.
I wonder if he would have the same luck with the adjusted SMRv2 that's been pushed out. Right now he seems to have about 10-15 points less in his defense from the boars and vipers in the black forest than he did before the SMRv2 adjustments...I'd venture to guess he may have had some deaths from 917 if these SMRv2 changes were out there when he was hunting the foggy valley.
I do remember when my level 20 bard would just get melted by 917 from the wood wights. First cast melted him = dead. Second time cast at him, it melted him. Tried a third time to do his bounty of killing some wood wights and he died from blood loss by the 4th crit cycle of 917. It was a short while after this painful run in with wood wights and 917 that the GM reduced the power of creature version of the spell and I think it was for level 30 and under. I never bothered to try hunting them again, they loved to cast the spell way too often and I'd rather not die because of it.
ZENNSUNNI
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/05/2021 07:29 PM CST
>If it makes you feel any better, I know there was a post some time back (can't remember what GM said it or if it was in this forum or the archived forum wizard folder somewhere) - spell 917 lethality had been reduced for creatures under level 30 (I think it's level 30....give or take 5 levels).
Tell that to my giantman that took 160 damage and 5 rank2/3 wounds from a single EF at ~like level. This is with KS too, so tack another 16 damage on for anyone else. Wasn't even an open roll...
Tell that to my giantman that took 160 damage and 5 rank2/3 wounds from a single EF at ~like level. This is with KS too, so tack another 16 damage on for anyone else. Wasn't even an open roll...
WELCHA
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/06/2021 12:53 PM CST
>>Tell that to my giantman that took 160 damage and 5 rank2/3 wounds from a single EF at ~like level. This is with KS too, so tack another 16 damage on for anyone else. Wasn't even an open roll...
But did you die?
Seriously though, there are so many variables in an SMRv2... I'd generally expect giants to take SMRv2 hits worse than many.
- Andreas
But did you die?
Seriously though, there are so many variables in an SMRv2... I'd generally expect giants to take SMRv2 hits worse than many.
- Andreas
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/06/2021 01:14 PM CST
>But did you die?
I've survived all crit cycles before, it can happen. Crawling away with about 20 health, 2 broken legs and arm while missing an eye.... it was painful, but I didn't die.
917 does fire or ice crits or puncture crits. Adding fire or ice resist or having puncture resistance could really down play how hard 917 hits.
Also, heavier armor reduces the crit divisor...so wearing the heaviest armor you can should help you survive more. Only downside with heavier armor is the higher penalty to your SMRv2 defense.
There are things you can do to mitigate 917 damage to you, but like all spells you'll eventually die to it.
Things I hate is when I get tagged with a 106 endroll and bone shatter takes off 45-60 health. When I hit a creature with a 106 endroll using bone shatter it takes maybe half that damage and the creature just laughs st me.
I've survived all crit cycles before, it can happen. Crawling away with about 20 health, 2 broken legs and arm while missing an eye.... it was painful, but I didn't die.
917 does fire or ice crits or puncture crits. Adding fire or ice resist or having puncture resistance could really down play how hard 917 hits.
Also, heavier armor reduces the crit divisor...so wearing the heaviest armor you can should help you survive more. Only downside with heavier armor is the higher penalty to your SMRv2 defense.
There are things you can do to mitigate 917 damage to you, but like all spells you'll eventually die to it.
Things I hate is when I get tagged with a 106 endroll and bone shatter takes off 45-60 health. When I hit a creature with a 106 endroll using bone shatter it takes maybe half that damage and the creature just laughs st me.
ZENNSUNNI
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/18/2021 05:40 PM CST
>But did you die?
Yep. That's beside the point though.
>Seriously though, there are so many variables in an SMRv2... I'd generally expect giants to take SMRv2 hits worse than many.
Giants do have an SMRv2 results penalty, yes, but against an EF that doesn't death-crit (like this one) this penalty is massively outweighed by their by their max health. Almost any character would have simply died to that EF. And again, this is beside the point.
The point is that these areas were not designed to have such lethal maneuver attacks. The devs actively changed these areas when they added EF to the game, and it was, in my opinion, short-sighted in many cases. I would go so far as to argue that EF simply shouldn't be given to critters - it's too lethal and gives too many opportunities for giant open rolls, which results in random deaths that feel irrelevant. This relates to the issue that the only relevant thing that happens in GS is, all too often, giant open rolls. That story of bad design is another issue, but if the Devs did what they should (remove giant open rolls), you might be able to convince me EF should be in the hands of critters. As it stands, it should probably go on the list of things like focused implosion, that very few critters have access to, and then only capped/warcamps etc.
Yep. That's beside the point though.
>Seriously though, there are so many variables in an SMRv2... I'd generally expect giants to take SMRv2 hits worse than many.
Giants do have an SMRv2 results penalty, yes, but against an EF that doesn't death-crit (like this one) this penalty is massively outweighed by their by their max health. Almost any character would have simply died to that EF. And again, this is beside the point.
The point is that these areas were not designed to have such lethal maneuver attacks. The devs actively changed these areas when they added EF to the game, and it was, in my opinion, short-sighted in many cases. I would go so far as to argue that EF simply shouldn't be given to critters - it's too lethal and gives too many opportunities for giant open rolls, which results in random deaths that feel irrelevant. This relates to the issue that the only relevant thing that happens in GS is, all too often, giant open rolls. That story of bad design is another issue, but if the Devs did what they should (remove giant open rolls), you might be able to convince me EF should be in the hands of critters. As it stands, it should probably go on the list of things like focused implosion, that very few critters have access to, and then only capped/warcamps etc.
GS4-AULIS
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/18/2021 06:49 PM CST
<<The point is that these areas were not designed to have such lethal maneuver attacks. The devs actively changed these areas when they added EF to the game, and it was, in my opinion, short-sighted in many cases. I would go so far as to argue that EF simply shouldn't be given to critters - it's too lethal and gives too many opportunities for giant open rolls, which results in random deaths that feel irrelevant. This relates to the issue that the only relevant thing that happens in GS is, all too often, giant open rolls. That story of bad design is another issue, but if the Devs did what they should (remove giant open rolls), you might be able to convince me EF should be in the hands of critters. As it stands, it should probably go on the list of things like focused implosion, that very few critters have access to, and then only capped/warcamps etc.
By my count, very few creatures actually DO have access to the spell. There's over 500 creatures in GemStone. Even more if you count warcamps and other specialized places. From the looks of it, only about 12 or so creatures can cast Earthen Fury. Even just 500 divided by 12 is only 2.4% of creatures that are able to cast it. Is that not a low enough margin? You did say "very few". 2.4%, in my opinion, is substantially few.
Another facet, is there are quite a few ways to keep creatures from casting in the first place. Pretty much every profession has access to at least one or two of those ways, if not more.
IMO, hunting is all about tactics in the long run. And even part of that is just knowing when to run or what creatures to NOT hunt in general.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
By my count, very few creatures actually DO have access to the spell. There's over 500 creatures in GemStone. Even more if you count warcamps and other specialized places. From the looks of it, only about 12 or so creatures can cast Earthen Fury. Even just 500 divided by 12 is only 2.4% of creatures that are able to cast it. Is that not a low enough margin? You did say "very few". 2.4%, in my opinion, is substantially few.
Another facet, is there are quite a few ways to keep creatures from casting in the first place. Pretty much every profession has access to at least one or two of those ways, if not more.
IMO, hunting is all about tactics in the long run. And even part of that is just knowing when to run or what creatures to NOT hunt in general.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
RATHBONER
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/19/2021 12:31 AM CST
A better count would be the fraction of hunting grounds, because critters like wights and trees are everywhere, there's at least three hunting grounds with archwights in the Landing alone. Counting that as 1 out of 500 critters is seriously underrepresenting the fraction of the game with EF.
XANTHIAN63
Re: 917 Critter Review
02/19/2021 07:54 AM CST
12 critters doesn't only mean 12 hunting areas.
In the lvl 30 & under undead range, it's roughly one third of the hunting grounds.
Just off the top of my head, elder Ghoul masters, arch wights, tomb wights, wood wights, tree spirits, elder tree spirits -- basically every town except river's rest is represented.
That means literally half your sample size seems to be aimed at new players.
Me, I've made my peace with the spell. 1017 is a ridiculously good counter and it means there are hunting grounds that scripters won't step into.
But the spell is generally a guaranteed death sentence when people can't get ready access to padding, resistances, or, hell, even their full health pool at those early trains.
The Ranger vine rework similarly made troll chieftain vines absolutely ridiculous. If they touch you, it's something like a 7 round stun where even a symbol of transcendenced giant will get guaranteed murdered by the vine alone, even if the chieftain himself still can't hit you.
The response to both of these problems is that critters don't cast immediately, and everyone has a disabler to stop them casting altogether. Trouble with the squares, is that their disablers put them into hard roundtime if they whiff. At least casters can leave the room.
They're also an absolute hazard if there's anyone else in the area, because some of them will retreat and run into an adjacent room with a spell already prepared and then nail pursuers or other adventurers before the room description has even finished sending.
2 second cycle time is absolutely fine. The first cycle breaks your legs and dooms you to your fate, do you really want to sit there for 25 seconds instead of 10? Or is the complaint that it kills you before you can slam??
A 2 second delay before the first cycle would go a lot further... But again, I've made my peace. You can always just hunt something else if you won't.
In the lvl 30 & under undead range, it's roughly one third of the hunting grounds.
Just off the top of my head, elder Ghoul masters, arch wights, tomb wights, wood wights, tree spirits, elder tree spirits -- basically every town except river's rest is represented.
That means literally half your sample size seems to be aimed at new players.
Me, I've made my peace with the spell. 1017 is a ridiculously good counter and it means there are hunting grounds that scripters won't step into.
But the spell is generally a guaranteed death sentence when people can't get ready access to padding, resistances, or, hell, even their full health pool at those early trains.
The Ranger vine rework similarly made troll chieftain vines absolutely ridiculous. If they touch you, it's something like a 7 round stun where even a symbol of transcendenced giant will get guaranteed murdered by the vine alone, even if the chieftain himself still can't hit you.
The response to both of these problems is that critters don't cast immediately, and everyone has a disabler to stop them casting altogether. Trouble with the squares, is that their disablers put them into hard roundtime if they whiff. At least casters can leave the room.
They're also an absolute hazard if there's anyone else in the area, because some of them will retreat and run into an adjacent room with a spell already prepared and then nail pursuers or other adventurers before the room description has even finished sending.
2 second cycle time is absolutely fine. The first cycle breaks your legs and dooms you to your fate, do you really want to sit there for 25 seconds instead of 10? Or is the complaint that it kills you before you can slam??
A 2 second delay before the first cycle would go a lot further... But again, I've made my peace. You can always just hunt something else if you won't.
