What will the minor elemental spell armor hindrance table look like for bards under the new proposal?

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>* While 1017 is very cool in a vacuum, it's a lot less cool when it appears to be a bard's only high-level primary attack spell. There's a reason that 917 and 309 aren't the chosen spells for wizards and clerics by the end. Every caster, including paladins and rangers, eventually needs at least one high end effect that does all its damage in one shot. The current 1030 is filling that role for bards, but with that disappearing and nothing to fill the void, again, somehow rangers and paladins seem like the more appealing casters not just on the AoE level, but also the single-target level with 616 and 1615

A 917 like spell would be a good addition to a pure casting bard. Right now bolting won't be as effective without 1206 and an EVOKED 1008, and relying on wands gets old and tedious.

I can't speak for other wizards, but my two capped wizards use 917 a lot.

1 of them doesn't bolt, he mainly uses 917 and a handful of CS spells (502 to help clean up a low health creature, 519 to help CC a potentially dangerous creature, 415 and/or 409 at times when I'm bored).

The other uses 917 and bolting.

Neither uses rapid fire because I hate the current version of it. I couldn't get used to using it so I just outright avoid it.


As for changes to bard spells.

How will 1005 be impacted? Right now my level 31 bard, I've got him built to make the most out of 1005. He can get shades in the foggy valley to be calmed. He can sleep most alive creatures upwards of almost 10 levels over him. Will changing over to SSR screw him over? It is a staple spell for him to help defend, CC and setup attacks against creatures. I'd hate to see this spell get nerfed some with this change over.

I don't really like the idea of shifting 1008 to SMR. SMR can be a real pain at times. I've had multiple casts of 917 in a row return almost all negative rolls from the oh so awesome RNG....I'd like to see 1008 stay CS based. This way you can at least know of your chances to successfully hit a target and not have to hope that SMR is going to play nice for a single cast spell with a single damage cycle.

I'd gladly welcome having 1007 boost my singing weapon (1025) AS. Right now with 1007 active and my COL signs, my magical halberd lags behind almost 50 AS. Don't get me wrong, part of my build with this bard is to also try and maximize 1025 to its fullest, so he's not lacking in bard spells or CM ranks and so on.

1014 - I like how it can reduce some of the sonic armor's spell hindrance. Sometimes that 3% for using Studded Leather is a tad annoying. Right now he'd have his hindrance reduced by 1% if the updated version was active.

Other changes, I can't really comment too much on since I don't play my bard that often....I always wanted to do a pure bard class, but right now with so few attack spells it's pretty much impossible to do - outside of relying heavily on wands.

>A 917 like spell would be a good addition to a pure casting bard. Right now bolting won't be as effective without 1206 and an EVOKED 1008, and relying on wands gets old and tedious.

>I can't speak for other wizards, but my two capped wizards use 917 a lot.

Just to clarify, I know 917 is great even at endgame. What I'm saying is that right alongside it is 1707 (or, for some, 510 or 910) that's regarded as the primary killing spell. The nearest killing spell below 1017 in the proposal is 1008, so I wasn't sure if that's supposed to be the one-two combo of main spells or if it's basically just 1017. I thought the latter since it's the only high-level single-target spell, but as I look at it now, it's impossible to say for sure without knowing how strong 1008 will be or how lore will affect it.


That said, v2 of the proposal has resolved pretty much my only serious concerns and even added a couple new things I think are really cool, like services carrying over between sonic weapons. There is still the lore split situation (in the Minor Mental version), but GMs have already said on Discord that they're willing to consider moving some of those benefits to Mental Mana Control, so seems like we're all good here!

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https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara_(prime)

As a locksmithing Bard I'd like to see a solution for plated boxes - without 407 those are no longer doable. I guess we lose our GY gate opener too, in that case. Neither are big losses but definitely things I'd miss. Somehow 1002 could be made to handle both I suppose.

casting minor spirit: cleric, empath, sorcerer, ranger, paladin, (rogue, warrior, monk)

casting minor elemental: Wizard, sorcerer, bard, (rogue, warrior)

My current set up. Level 100 Ranger (Spirit), level 100 Bard (elemental), Monk on his way to 100 (mental and group stuff)

It makes no sense to take away the minor elemental sphere from anybody. It's even at a deficit among squares.

I've given this a lot of thought. Above all, this is a role playing game. I can not think of a scenario where Regwen wakes up one morning and forgets all her elemental spells that she has used for the past 25 years and suddenly knows a whole new spell circle. Especially as a capped bard. It just doesn't work. I'm very disappointed in the whole mental switch idea.

-- Regwen

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A silver glow surrounds Regwen briefly.

Lheren says, "The Lord of Night has heard you, it seems."

Any chance these profession design proposal threads could be started in the appropriate profession folder going forward?

I understand why they've been here, but they tend to drown out any other threads that might already be here.... meanwhile the profession folders don't often have much going on in them at all to drown out.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Adding my two cents about the switch from MnE to MnM. Don't do this. While I don't have the 25 years as an active player of a bard mentioned by a previous poster, I do have a ~1.5x capped bard that I love playing. I have no interest in learning how to best utilize a whole new spell list while losing my access to one I have had for a very long time.

It would be one thing if the situation were something like savants get created with access to spell list X. Then 6 months later, it turns out spell list Y is more suitable. Messing with years or even decades of history should not happen.

I'm pretty neutral about the rest of the changes. Some good. Some not so good. It feels like it's change for the sake of change, and not anything anyone asked for. But I've felt a lot recent changes fall into this category.

"1008 and especially 1005 going to even be remotely useful once they're shifted to a heavily level based system?
As the level difference increases, the usefulness of SMR based spells decrease." -- BBRodriguez

I am going to repeat my oft-stated opinion that "training decisions" (i.e. "point spent for skills & ranks") should weigh much more heavily in these equations that "level of doer vs. level of done-to" does. (And in the case of Lullabye particularly, "stat bonuses" [charismatic Elf vs. undisciplined krolvin marauder] should be strong, also.)

.

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(And it should come as no surprise that this is a good opportunity to repeat my suggestion that "level as an integral part of CS/TD comparison" is equally flawed, and should have been done as "a trainable skill for warding spells", so there would be "pure casters who are meant to bolt so they double-train in that", "pure casters who are meant to ward so they double-train in that", [maybe some pure caster designed to be either/or], "pure weapon users who are meant to swing weapons so they double-train in that", "semis who are meant to ward/weapon", "semis who are meant to bolt/weapon", and so on.
Then you would have outlier/mutant paths who, for example, forgo "weapon" to go "heavy magic" instead, or vice versa.
But they would be using spells/magical skills to approach the abilities of the "pure weapons", rather than "dear god the weapon folks need SOMETHING to catch up to anyone who knows spells.")

+1 to H2U's idea or something similar:

Song of the Virtuoso (1050) Each professions gets +10 to their primary and secondary statistic. Uses updated spell song mechanics.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

+2 is grossly insufficient for a 50th level spell (as a persistent Song, this == "==10 Max Mana" while running), given that Monks (now) get "+10 to everything" upon making one of their Feat milestones.

- "Each profession joined gets +10 to (their own) Primary/Secondary/Mana stats."
- "If Prime/Second and Mana overlap, that stat gets an additional +5." (Not quite "cumulative", but still "more benefit.")
- "Treated as Ascension points. (i.e. NOT counting against Enhancive limits.)" (So a Bard with a full load of +40 INFluence enhancives would go to +55 [+10 from prime stat, +5 more because INFluence overlaps as mana stat also].)

And ideally, to enhance the grouping aspect, I would like to see the singing Bard get some kind of bonus from being in a diverse group: Paladin gives <boost this stat/this skill>, Wizard gives <boost that stat/that skill>, or whatever. You're building a composite harmony of your disparate members' powers, the whole greater than the sum.
Or maybe you're just the maestro, having your pretty little puppets dance to your tune. DANCE, my little marionettes, DANCE! Muahaahahh--
<cough>
Bow to your partners. Bow to your corners....

> - "Each profession joined gets +10 to (their own) Primary/Secondary/Mana stats."
> - "If Prime/Second and Mana overlap, that stat gets an additional +5." (Not quite "cumulative", but still "more benefit.")
> - "Treated as Ascension points. (i.e. NOT counting against Enhancive limits.)" (So a Bard with a full load of +40 INFluence enhancives would go to +55 [+10 from prime stat, +5 more because INFluence overlaps as mana stat also].)
> And ideally, to enhance the grouping aspect, I would like to see the singing Bard get some kind of bonus from being in a diverse group: Paladin gives <boost this stat/this skill>, Wizard gives <boost that stat/that skill>, or whatever. You're building a composite harmony of your disparate members' powers, the whole greater than the sum.


This grouping aspect interesting addition to H2U's suggestion - quite spicy in fact. The overlapping bonuses should cap at +20 total per stat and apply to all members in the group (versus the more conservative +15/siloed to the user's own stats). I like it.

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Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."

Another idea I want to propose...

If we compare and contrast the three semis (using the latest bard proposal details):
- Ranger base uses two of the three spiritual lores (66%), both of which are used by Minor Spiritual (Summoning and Blessings), and get 101 ranks of Spiritual Lore to spread across them.
- Paladin base uses all three spiritual lores (100%), one of which has no impact on Minor Spiritual (Religion), and get 202 ranks of Spiritual Lore to spread across them.
- Rangers should be elemental sphere-aligned, but that's not relevant to this discussion
- Bard base uses two of the five mental lores (40%), both of which are used by Minor Mental (Telepathy and Manipulation), and get 101 ranks of Mental Lore to spread cross them.
- Unlike Minor Spirit, Minor Mental utilizes all five Mental Lores, although Divination and Transference are minimally featured

As we can see from this comparison, bards are slated to have not only the lowest percentage of lores utilized by circle (as compared to the Sphere Lores), and also have the fewest ranks of Lore to allocate to all of the spells they have access to. To reiterate: Rangers have 101 ranks to allocate to two lores shared by their professional and minor circle; Paladins have 202 ranks to allocate to three lores shared by their professional and minor circle; and Bards have 101 ranks to allocate to the five lores shared by their professional and minor circle. If we want to be extra conservative, we could say that Bards have 101 ranks to allocate three [emphasized] lores shared by their professional and minor circle, still putting them at the bottom of this ranking.

So what do I think we should do? The easy answer, in my humble opinion, is to give bards 202 ranks of Mental Lore to play with. There would still be hard choices to make considering all five lores have an impact without making any changes to the bard document proposal lore thresholds. However, should this be perceived as not enough of a constraint on choice, dev staff could apply a multiplier to the existing Manipulation and Telepathy thresholds in the Bard circle - I would think somewhere between 1.3x and 1.5x would be reasonable.

GM Naijin, however, is adamantly against providing Bards with 202 ranks of Mental Lore – see: https://discord.com/channels/226045346399256576/889634465834496011/890326858560831578 – so in the spirit of providing alternatives, I propose integrating Transformation Lore into the Bard Circle. As stated by GM Naijin in Discord:

"Look at the transformation and what it actually does thematically."
"You grow scales, you grow spikes on your arm, you have dragon claw hands that change the body."

I suggest we take some of this concept and bring it into the Bardic fold, specifically for the following spells:

- 1008: Banshee's Wail - "Renamed Stunning Shout. Converted from CS to SMR. Improve baseline damage. Now deals both unbalance and impact damage on every cast. Remove Elemental Lore - Air concussion damage increase. Mental Lore - Telepathy now increases the critical rank of the unbalance/impact critical. Bards wielding a combat instrument double the initial concussion damage of this spell."
- 1016: Traveller’s Ballad - Renamed Traveller’s Song (1020). Verify that there’s a viable landing room to exit from each hunting area. Remove damage/thirst on failures, simply change to longer roundtime.
- 1019: Melody of Mirrors - Renamed Song of Mirrors.
- 1035: Song of Tonis - Major revision. No longer a group spell. Duration changes to “song.” Bard receives - 1 RT for all actions, to a minimum of 2 seconds (no longer affected by Elemental Lore - Air). This RT reduction increases to -2 at 75 spell song ranks. The former Elemental Lore - Air benefit of adding dodge ranks is removed. The spell now grants 15 phantom dodge ranks at base, increased by 1 per 2 ranks of Mental Lore - Telepathy to a maximum bonus of 50 total phantom dodge ranks at 70 ranks of lore (10 higher max than before).
- Additionally, while Song of Tonis is active, the Bard has a standard flare chance when casting a spell of war to receive the Wings of Tonis buff. Wings of Tonis lasts 30 seconds and will reduce the next physical attack action to 1 second RT. At 50 Ranks of Mental Mana Control, the Wings of Tonis buff applies to the entire group.

For Banshee's Wail, Telepathy doesn't really make sense here. What are you telepathically influencing? The messaging for an actual Banshee's Wail is: "A banshee focuses her glare on you and looses a ghastly, keening wail!" I believe it would be a better thematic fit for the bard to transform into a banshee for this song.

For Traveller's Ballad, especially with the removal of the thirst concept, there are a ton of thematic ways to express this. But let's look at the anchoring messaging: "You notice a great circle of visible mana form around you and begin to spin, slowly growing closer. It enfolds around you gently like a giant's hand then releases and sinks into the ground below." I think we could easily work in a transformation concept here, perhaps into grains of sand, beads of water, wisps of clouds, murders of crows, etc... Very similar to the messaging options used by FWI transport.

For Melody of Mirrors, this is an easy one! I, personally, hate the current Song of Mirrors messaging, especially how it appears in your features. Mirror images of myself? Get outta here! I'd rather this be implemented as the bard's outer surface (skin, if you will) being transformed into a mirrored surface that increases dodging ability. The mirror surface would be "polished" through additional training in Transformation lore, rather than Bard Base ranks.

And, lastly, Song of Tonis! This haste effect is most definitely a transformation, allowing ones body to be significantly more agile and response. And the new Wings of Tonis feature is a perfect add-on to the transformative theme for this song. Bring out your inner Aelotai by sprouting wings aiding in your speed, and functionally-useful ones unlike the Aelotai.

There may be other potential fits for Transformation lore, but these are four spells I thought could benefit from a reimagining. Thanks for your consideration.

Or, Lores could be left at only 101, but let reasonable power be achieved at lower #s. (Such as Wizards with 4× 50 ranks.)

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That said, I like Transformation for making some spells improve.

Banshee's Wail doesn't need you to shift into one... just for your throat & larynx to change. :)

<1001 suggestion> -- Gargadon

If it took me 15 mana to get a mere +5 bonus (which, true, I can use "any time in the next two minutes") compared to "that guy over there spends 17 mana for +75 bonus!", there is no flippin' way that I would ever cast the spell.

Now, if it were done as a "song-duration" effect, such that "you get this bonus while it is running," then absolutely. I would buy into that, and would be quite happy to have it keep going higher, too...
...except for the fact that the seed progression would suck your Max Mana down like nobody's business.
(For all of the "song"-duration effects--all eleven (11) of them--listed in the initial write-up, together, running constantly, was a total of minus forty (-40) Max Mana. +6 from this one Song would be over half of that.)

Now again: already that is a huge savings in mana, given that I am currently singing FIVE with a cumulative renewal of 52 (plus casting 18 for Power rather than renewing it for 15 + chance of death) and not using Sonic Equipments at all.

Maybe do it as "+3 bonus for every 2 ranks, truncate [not round] so the bonus happens on the even #s"?
Bonuses would run: +1, +3, +4, +6, +7, +9, +10, +12 for -36 Max Mana. (JUST from this one Song... and -40 from the other ELEVEN COMBINED.)

Given that level of mana drain, honestly, I would not think +2/step out of whack at all.

Ah! You were multiplying the (base) War Chant/1001 bonus times your "tier achieved" line. (So, 'tier 1' == 1x the War Chant bonus.)

Much more comprehension, now, thanks.

The 1001 proposal seems cool to me. You certainly can't expect +75 AS from a level 1 spell, even at higher levels...

Cast 1001 whenever you have a break between combat (cast it on your group too if you have time) - only costs 1 mana, gives a small little AS/CS boost, and keeps you slightly busy during downtime between finding critters.

I would probably use this like I use 320 on my cleric when the damage/stun isn't relevant...never stop attacking to cast it, but always cast it whenever I have a chance (don't let it slow down the killing machine).

Ya, war chant will probably not be used even at 1 sec because its still adding a second of RT for a small benefit. Maybe dev feels it has a use as one of the only spells that can boost CS but anything that increases time to kill tends to not be popular imo.

I'd like to see WARCHANT KILL ORC or WARCHANT 1002 ORC without any additional RT. Instead, the spell has a scaling mana cost if you continue to spam it over 30 seconds.
1st Cast - 1 mana
2nd Cast - 2 mana
3rd Cast - 4 mana
4th Cast - 8 mana
5th Cast - 16 mana
You get the idea. Mana cost resets after the cooldown period of 30 seconds.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

>What other level 1 spell gets used regularly other than the buffs?

Quite a lot. I'd be really annoyed if 201 and 301 suffered the fate of 1201 and got taken away from players for not being used enough. All those poor critters that would have to be murdered instead of Calmed when they are trolling my escorts!

It looks like I missed the survey so I'll mention here that I'd prefer not change from minor elemental to minor mental.