Hey all,

There is an update in the works for archery and as part of our new transparency policy we want to allow early feedback on the design.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z6rt_HxSgSrmAoOwhVKmlgjG5vvSkHRn8c6CConnS7U/edit?usp=drivesdk

Keep in mind everything is subject to change up to (and even past) the official release.

- Naijin

"Will this update make Sonic Weapon bows be possible" -- Cylnthia

I always thought that they should do it as creating sonic arrows (at some nominal cost, like 1 mana per) and give them the same flares as on regular Sonic Weapons when they hit. That way you just hold your--only needs to be +15, if you've maxed out your Song benefits--bow in your hand to get the full +50 and fire away.
In just one second, if you're running Tonis….

Newbie here, so I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

Aside from fletching being too slow for a hasted wizarcher whose minigun has run out of ribbon, I actually don't have any great issues with ammo gathering.

Having crush ammo is exciting, and realistically probably compensation enough for the loss of pure puncture damage at low levels, because of how much easier it is to reliably hit the head.

The nerfs are fair. There should be a reason beyond just defence to enchant a bow over 5x-6x. (Having said that, there isn't one for runestaves either...)

Three things do spring to mind, however:

1. Thrown Damage Factors look like they potentially need to be revisited for everything other than Javelins, and Javelins look like they potentially need the same treatment as arrows in converting to puncture/slash. (I know, I know, scope creep...) If you gave fletching the ability to make bandoliers, even if just dart bandoliers, there would be the world's smallest army to fight you, consisting of exclusively the handful of people that actually have one...

2. To claw back some of the lost potential of rank 4 guaranteed eye crit kills, perceived or otherwise, it'd be nice to either be able to CER a bow with Crit services, or otherwise overhaul sighting so that it isn't pointless by the time you're done with enchant & ensorcell and can actually afford to WPS a bow.

3. 402/404 are wonky. 402 is understandably not stackable, because it provides large anti-ambush value, but still, if there's an aim bonus, it intuitively belongs here, or somewhere else entirely (like elemental targeting, which would be nifty as it is almost mutually exclusive with Self Control outside of scrolls). But 404 is a 1 minute spell that is theoretically stackable to the 4 hour limit, and unintuitively boosts aim for some reason currently.

Hell, can we just have an FAQ on what 402 actually does & doesn't do, even if we can't get the numbers? The help channel blew up the other day with someone claiming that it helped you find more loot.

>> > 2. To claw back some of the lost potential

>> We've talked about sighting over the cap adding to CER. It seems like most of the team is on board with this so it's likely the direction we'll take.

This would be an amazing update.

-- Robert

>channel my maul
You channel at a hefty mithril maul.
You make an astoundingly inept attempt! Success!

I just wanted to voice my support for such a great overhaul of a fairly clunky system.

I currently have a level 20 ranger that is absolutely feeling the tedium of the GATHER mechanic along with the pain of blessing bundles and keeping things orderly. I'm only hunting with a 4x bow and blessed arrows and no society abilities and my AS is usually well above the critter's DS to effectively take it out. But when it isn't, I sure would love to have a reasonable option of grabbing a crossbow (without having to keep a ever-topped-up supply of bolts on me) to kneel and fire. My aim isn't very good at this level and I'm sure the kneeling bonus would help a lot.

I also wanted to second the desire for a sonic bow/sonic arrows option. It was mentioned in the Discord that it was either being considered or wasn't seen as impossible. If something like this were to be developed would it be apart of the main core of these archery updates or would we have to wait for another GM familiar with bard spellsongs to code it?

> 402 does not help with aiming. 404 provides a small bonus which fits because it makes you calm and focused.

See, that just raises further questions. 613 also makes you calm and focused. And it scales with Ranger Base. Does 404 similarly scale with MnE at all?

Do they stack with eachother or does 613 override?

And,

> We've talked about sighting over the cap adding to CER.

Are you talking about exclusively weapon sighting going to CER, or are you talking 3x perception rogue with +50 perception enhancives, 404, and 613 being given CER from being way over the cap, even before weapon sighting is taken into account? And whether any of those actually get you closer to hit cap when overhunting, because my gut instinct from limited play with perception enhancives, is that perception at the very least doesn't seem to help with the level penalty when aiming no matter how much of it you actually have.

Hiding the numbers is fine and dandy, but hiding whether your gear or training are even doing *anything whatsoever* is a fair bit more difficult to swallow.

I’m super excited about these changes! I’ve been a huge fan of archery since before there was an archery option in Gemstone. I agree, however, the ammo management issue is huge and while I was willing to deal with it (with help from some scripts), when I played Plat for a long while I was lucky enough to get one of the elemental bows. That completely spoiled me, the ability to just fire the bow, like how swingers can swing a weapon was amazing. Coming back to Prime to my archers I pretty much gave up on them. Switched back to melee or for my capped ranger, spike thorn. All this mainly due to the lengthy time it takes to fletch a bundle of arrows, then either lose most of them in a single hunt or have to risk life and limb gathering them as I fired was just not fun at all. In my mind it completely obviated some of the advantages that using a bow gave (single shot kills to the eye). Really like the details of the changes too. I was wondering what will happen to existing arrows that had blunt tips and other purchased arrows. I still have a bunch of bundles in various lockers. Also, I have a tier 1 mechanical quiver and one of the repeating crossbows, any idea what would be changing on those?

Valdarrow

I am not angry over the proposed changes and I do not play an archer anymore. I do see a problem with the proposed changes and will try to express those concerns in this post.

My main character is a human rogue with over 56133155 experience. I have been using UAC since it was implemented as my main form of combat. I hunt the scatter and rift with 6x HCP robes and 8x UAC gloves and have been doing so for years. It has been years since I've used ranged combat to hunt in the Rift and Scatter or anywhere else for that matter. I decided to get my old trusty longbow out today to refresh my memory as to why I do not use it anymore. I am an old guy playing a human rogue with over 56133155 experience. I do not remember exactly when I started but I first played on the prodigy server if that gives you a frame of reference (circa 1990s perhaps?). I used a 6x enchanted longbow with heavy crit sighting, master fletched arrows I made today and had the AS benefit of 425 self cast on my character as well as 117 when needed so I could hit the fetish masters. My perspective comes from a rogue that snipes.

So after my two hunts with my longbow in the Scatter and Rift I rediscovered why my trusty old longbow has remained in my locker for so long and why it once again lies there now. Ranged combat is TOO SLOW. Your proposal would reduce ranged AS with a bow by -20 due to arrows losing enchantment and would make it less accurate by adding slice damage instead of making it exclusively puncture damage. Adding more follow up shots due to misses would make a tedious process much more so. None of the proposed changes I saw address that. The arrows mechanic you are adding are an improvement but will not reduce the RT. A simple script will gather all your arrows and put them in a quiver in a split second. It takes a split second to pull an arrow from a quiver. It will be a boon to new players entering the game. But for more experienced players it will not offset the nerf to bow combat.

When I was an archer I trained stealth and accuracy to excess. When sniping I found that when firing pulled me out of hiding those shots from the open those shots are not as effective. Simply put if you do not hit something in the eye with your bow and arrow you are not likely to kill it and will not likely stun it either. This is less a factor when you are young and compounds the older you get. In the Rift today my RT was six seconds if I remained hidden and 5 seconds if my shot pulled me into the open. I was able to one shot kill some creatures in the eye certainly and then search them six seconds later. But it is TOO SLOW!

If bow combat needs be brought into line with other lines of combat then this proposal does not do that. If combat with a bow needed to be brought into line with bolting then the RT should be reduced along with the other changes you mention. If sniping with a bow needs to be brought in line with melee ambushing then sniped shots need to have the same critical weighting so as to avoid endless plinking. If the problem is "open archery" or archery from the open and the training points associated with it then address that. I would also mention that the one cman you proposed would only be useful for open archery and not snipers. :)

The proposed changes will not effect me. Or should I say the proposed changes will not an affect on me? I always get those backwards. I do not use archery anymore. Did I mention it is TOO SLOW?

Wolfloner's player

Steve

> In the Rift today my RT was six seconds if I remained hidden and 5 seconds if my shot pulled me into the open ... I do not use archery anymore. Did I mention it is TOO SLOW?

A capped human (+5 STR) rogue with 100STR (+25), +20 STR Enhancives, and Surge of Strength is firing an aimed longbow while hidden in 3 seconds...

Most wouldn't have any trouble replacing Surge of Strength with a white crystal (and you could also try to hunt down a Phoen's Strength scroll or imbed to fill in the blanks on those Enhancives...)

Composite bows also exist to loosen those requirements even further.

There's nothing inherently slow about archery other than the way you chose to use it for this test.

Removing the ammo enchant from stacking is not actually a nerf. If you enchant a bow up to 10x today, or when this change hits live, you will have the exact same AS either way. If you use fletched ammo, you will actually have +5 AS on the new system.

What it's a nerf to is all those people using lesser-enchanted equipment, and honestly, fair enough that there should be a reason to enchant bows as there is for any other weapon.

I've done some of my own testing, roughly 200-300 for each sample so not enough for a confidence interval, but enough to answer a few of my own previous questions.

L34 Archer Wizard vs L28 Moaning Spirits (Non-Corp Undead, can't crit a bodypart to affect the stats of subsequent shots):

132 Ranged, 172 Perception, no buffs: 56/313 (17.89%) Aim Fumbles, 7/257 (2.72%) Left Eyes
132 Ranged, 186 Perception, no buffs: 4/300 (1.33%) Aim Fumbles, 45/296 (15.2%) Left Eyes
132 Ranged, 172 Perception, 404 [30 MnE]: 16/230 (6.96%) Aim Fumbles, 34/214 (15.89%) Left Eyes
132 Ranged, 172 Perception, 613 [36 ArcSym]: 2/164 (1.22%) Aim Fumbles, 30/162 (18.52%) Left Eyes
132 Ranged, 172 Perception, 404, 613: 2/149 (1.34%) Aim Fumbles, 47/147 (31.97%) Left Eyes
180 Ranged, 194 Perception, 404, 613: 1/198 (0.51%) Aim Fumbles, 93/198 (47.21%) Left Eyes

So this has basically settled a few of my questions:
1. Disarm Enhancement isn't a "Slight Buff". It looks roughly equivalent to 10 bonus perception.
2. Self Control is slightly better than 404 for aiming, but not by much. Let's call it 15-20 bonus perception. We don't know if either scales with any skills in my case, but I've listed the skills I think pertinent above anyway.
3. Self Control and Disarm Enhancement definitely stack.
4. Training perception above 2x Definitely sees returns when aiming. This is great news for rogues.
5. Ranged itself does not appear to have any discernible impact on accuracy when open aiming. Only perception. This is great news for wizard archers.

I might head back out and try testing out how much easier it is to hit the head, as this will be relevant for the new crush arrows. And if you're very lucky, I might even collate some data for prone targets, to see what that modifier brings.

> Ranged combat is TOO SLOW.

Ranged combat has the potential to hit 3 seconds which is the fastest form of melee combat outside of Tonis/506. If you have issues hitting the strength requirement then a crossbows is an appealing option, particularly for snipers. Crossbows have a flat 4/5 RT (light/heavy) regardless of aiming or hiding which is still faster or on par with the fastest forms of aimed physical combat.

The issues you mentioned with the Rift and Scatter are issues every hider faces. The Rift and Scatter have rooms you can't hide in as well enemies that are very perceptive which make it more difficult to be a sniper or ambusher.

<<Ranged combat has the potential to hit 3 seconds which is the fastest form of melee combat outside of Tonis/506. If you have issues hitting the strength requirement then a crossbows is an appealing option, particularly for snipers. Crossbows have a flat 4/5 RT (light/heavy) regardless of aiming or hiding which is still faster or on par with the fastest forms of aimed physical combat.>>

My impression was that melee combat is in your face combat and that is not the way I have looked at ranged combat. If you look up a definition of melee combat by definition it is close quarters combat and in my view that is very different from ranged combat. A better comparison to ranged combat would be bolting in my opinion and that seems to be the design that was followed by whoever designed it if you look at the mechanics of it. Melee ambushing is TOO SLOW too in my opinion. That is why I switched to UAC ambushing.


<<The issues you mentioned with the Rift and Scatter are issues every hider faces. The Rift and Scatter have rooms you can't hide in as well enemies that are very perceptive which make it more difficult to be a sniper or ambusher.>>

I do not have a problem with the hiding mechanics in the Rift and Scatter. I did do much better there when I switched from using a bow to UAC. I did that years ago. My capped ranger could not hunt the Sanctum of Scales due to the crazy swarms there. I gave up ranged and made him a weed mage and he does much better now in the Sanctum of Scales. There are better and more powerful forms of combat. You should not nerf bows.

Wolfloner's player

Steve

Can't say that I'm fond of the casual "Min/max is expected singular path" approach to game mechanics design. Really kind of frustrated to see so many players embrace and expect it to be the norm. I feel that it's really bad game design and alienates players and actually causes them to decide not to play. YMMV, but that's been my gut feeling when I read posts where players feel that a bunch of various extras are expected in order to hunt. It feels like excuses for bad mechanics design.

<What, specifically, is preventing you from using that stamina to speed up your sniping by "tediously" refreshing a combat maneuver every 90 seconds?>


For snipers, sticking to the shadows is extremely important and in the Rift there are more ways to get pulled into the open then in most other hunting grounds (wandering voids, caedera entering a room, random environmental effects, etc). Some of these things inflict RT on a character in addition to pulling them into the open, so it's important to have a reserve of stamina to use VANISH at any given moment.

Using SURGE every 90 seconds is expensive. Even if you're regaining more stamina/pulse then Surge costs, it's difficult to maintain AND use Vanish as often as necessary... esp if the rogue attempting to do so is also a locksmith, since they likely have fewer PF ranks then a pure combat rogue.


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

<And the reason why a composite bow isn't viable, sacrificing roughly 10% of damage factor to conserve that stamina instead, would be...>

You'd have to ask the original person you were responding to.... I've used a composite bow for the last 15-20 levels and don't miss the longbow at all

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Can we get 1109 (Empathic Focus) to add to ranged AS or maybe add a sighting bonus? The description of the spell seems that it should. This could maybe offset the AS loss to Empath archers once enchants on arrows is no longer counted. With pure archer builds, a loss of AS is felt significantly more so than with squares or semis, as we can only train 1x per anyways.

<<This applies to more or less all non-UAC weapons. Swinging a handaxe in 5 sec, for example, is dangerous in many hunting areas, and it's even worse than ranged because it has to deal with hard EBP. Remember how great it was when this didn't exist? I think ranged MSTRIKE will help mitigate this as it has for melee. Swarmy areas, bandits, etc. will be more palatable for archers who don't have good crowd control. UAC is great because it has its own EBP mechanics, it's fast, it leaves the hand(s) free, and it blocks or bypasses certain things that are aggravating for melee or ranged users. It seems that many ambushing rogues that switched to UAC have never looked back.>>

I agree.

Wolfloner's player

Steve

>Did I miss a line in the teaser that said ranged will no longer be subjected to EBP or are you saying that's the way it is now?

Er, right. I meant Parry only, as they work today. Ranged attacks are subjected to less of the EBP equation than melee attacks.

>> That said, as a forest gnome, my RT still isn't ever going to be 4 sec whether I use Surge or not.

>> Starchitin, the OG

The mechanical crossbows are a game changer for gnomes (at least for my gnome ranger). You really should check these out.

-- Robert

>channel my maul
You channel at a hefty mithril maul.
You make an astoundingly inept attempt! Success!

>> I'm not spending $50 or more to get and unlock a weapon just to shave off a couple seconds RT.

Totally agree on this point. I purchased mine using silver (from someone else who spent whatever it was they spent to get the BS that I purchased.)

Understand on the hiding challenges. My ranger fires from the open.

-- Robert

>channel my maul
You channel at a hefty mithril maul.
You make an astoundingly inept attempt! Success!