I've always done LC/LP for my WM, but I'm wondering the same thing with the upcoming changes. I know I want to lean toward less hindrance, but I'm unsure whether to go with Scale (brigandine), or Mail/Chain in the Chain skill. I know for sure I don't want to drop down to the light light Ring patterns though. I guess I'm sort of waiting for more data points with appraisals/comparisons on the new armor.

New training motif: train ALL the metals (with reference to hyperbole and a half)!

I figure as a non-stealthy armor tert who sits in combat all the time, I might as well. Defenses are typically ML'd anyway, no reason to not let an additional two skills stay moving.

>>Not really. As Armor and Survival tertiary, Warrior Mages won't have significant gaps between their armor and evasion skills, minimizing the penalties. They will, however, as Armor tertiary, be forced to suffer the same hindrances as other Armor tertiary guilds.

>>Does not compute. They're going to be just as hindered as they always were before, except they will have no way to reduce the hindrance beyond the means available to everyone. They will, however, have a way to make their armor more effective than it was before.

>>The net change is that lighter armor with lighter hindrance becomes more desirable for Warrior Mages. There will probably be more than a few who stick with their heavy plate, but that will be a personal choice and likely not the most effective one. Light armors and lighter chain armors will probably become more popular.

Saying "you're wrong" and then rephrasing the exact points I just made is not logical.

I would only add to his post that, while you are going to be more hindered, evasion's not going to be a god-defense anymore. Parry and shield will (presumably) be just as effective, so the trade-off between more hindrance and higher protection/absorption might be a viable choice. So keep training both chain (in case you end up wanting something lighter) and plate (in case it ends up remaining a viable option). That way, you'll be prepared for either outcome.
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Malkien

<<I would only add to his post that, while you are going to be more hindered, evasion's not going to be a god-defense anymore. Parry and shield will (presumably) be just as effective, so the trade-off between more hindrance and higher protection/absorption might be a viable choice.

<<YS currently reduces hindrance from armors. It is being changed to an armor skill booster. Assuming armor and evasion are in line with one another, I don't know (and it doesn't sound like anyone does) what buffing armor skill will do in terms of hindrance.

They'll be just as effective as they were before, and parry will get a bit of help against ranged weapons. But blocking with a shield will still throw you off balance if you're losing the Strength battle, and parry will still be primarily intended to function against melee attacks. After all those defenses get checked, your armor gets checked and determines how much of the attacked gets absorbed, which is where the new YS comes into play.

Essentially, its job is to allow WMs who want to dodge to dodge (same as old YS). Now it just doesn't do much to overcome WMs being armor tert.

I presume that YS will continue to have a niche, but it shouldn't be a no-brainer spell choice for WMs any more.

>>After all those defenses get checked, your armor gets checked and determines how much of the attacked gets absorbed, which is where the new YS comes into play.

What? No.

It's a straight boost to armor ranks. It doesn't affect absorption.
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Malkien

<<Reference: http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Combat_3.0_Overview_-_7/14/2010_-_22:28:18

This. YS will have have value. Quite a lot in fact. But it's heavily skewed towards favoring lighter armor users.

<<Tangent: I have not noticed this effect. Do you have a reference or provide some more information on this feature|issue?

Strength factors into how well you defend with a shield. Currently I don't believe it's terribly significant, but if you're hit by a heavy weapon used by someone who outclasses you significantly in strength it can throw you off balance. I haven't seen it in years, though, mostly because very few people/critters use 2HB and when they do it typically results in you dying anyway. I'm hoping it becomes noticeable again in 3.0.

>>This. YS will have have value. Quite a lot in fact. But it's heavily skewed towards favoring lighter armor users.
I don't see how you reach that conclusion.

>>Because it can still only bring the hindrance down to the minimum possible for the armor type/skillset position. Meaning that Warrior Mages will face the same choice everyone else does: evade or rely on armor. Warrior Mages in light armor get the best of it with maximized evasion chance and improved protection from armor.

As the stats of the armor, impact the benefit you get from increased armor skill, again, you cannot say this with any degree of certainty. IE heavier armors will benefit more than lighter armors, from increased skill. If that benefit is enough to outweigh the loss of evasion, is a question of balance. With no access to the system to check, you can draw no reasonable conclusions.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

<<My assumption is that if armor is higher than evasion, hindrance is reduced from the baseline hindrance armor causes. In my mind, this favors Warmies wearing heavier armors with YS, as we are survival/armor tert. YS should bring armor skills in line with evasion, or passed it.

http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Armor_--_Neglect_Training_at_your_Peril_-_12/23/2009_-_19:20:37

>>My assumption is that if armor is higher than evasion, hindrance is reduced from the baseline hindrance armor causes.

If the "minimum" hindrance for plate as an armor tertiary is, say, 25%, having more armor ranks than evasion ranks will not reduce your hindrance past the 25% point. That's a hard cap; you have reached the lowest it can go, and it will go no further even if you have 10 evasion and 1000 heavy plate.

There will be a "benefit" of some kind for having higher armor ranks than evasion ranks. This benefit has not, to my knowledge, been explicitly stated. Perhaps additional protection or absorption. This "benefit" is what YS would be for.

>>With no access to the system to check, you can draw no reasonable conclusions.

He's already made three or four decisions about magic and combat 3.0. Pointing this rather logical objection to such out has not been constructive so far.
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Malkien

<<He's already made three or four decisions about magic and combat 3.0. Pointing this rather logical objection to such out has not been constructive so far.

Nothing logical about that objection. Drawing reasonable conclusions is entirely possible without hard data. But until there is hard data supporting it, it's just an educated guess. Considering we've been informed that armor will be an active defense, and that minimum hindrance is based on skillset, and that when your skill in armor reaches the point where you are at minimum hindrance you cannot improve any further, determining that armor skill will play a role in protection or absorption is logical. Otherwise armor suffers the same problem it does under the current system: there would be no benefit to higher armor ranks once you've reached minimum hindrance.

<<My understanding as well. The issue (and topic of this tangent) is whether blocking with a shield reduces your balance based on some formula based on strength. I have never experienced this issue and I can not recall any mention of it (either in the past or for the future).

Indeed. Like I said, I haven't seen it in years. I vaguely recall it happening in rock trolls, where they'd hit you and you'd end up on your back even with a full block. It was part of why very few non-Paladins used shield.

>>Otherwise armor suffers the same problem it does under the current system: there would be no benefit to higher armor ranks once you've reached minimum hindrance.

You don't understand how armor skill is going to work.

There will be a minimum hindrance determined by armor ranks relative to evasion skill (the bolded part is what's changing in combat 3.0). There absolutely will be benefit to more armor skill (or rather,the continued benefit of minimum hindrance), unless you plan on never raising your evasion, either.
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Malkien

>>So far I'm batting .500 with my "baseless" conclusions (Socharis was kind enough to confirm that purchasing spell slots with TDPs is going away, sorry Leilond). 1.000 really if you consider that the other half haven't been denied yet.

Considering Armifer (who is actually M3.0, not Socharis), posted about it awhile ago, that's not really a baseless conclusion. It's more : "Months behind."

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

<<Considering Armifer (who is actually M3.0, not Socharis), posted about it awhile ago, that's not really a baseless conclusion. It's more : "Months behind."

You keep trying. You keep failing. Take it to conflicts, where I can ignore it, thanks.

<<I've never seen this in my time of playing DR, so as you said it was probably a relic of the past.

Yeah, I have my fingers crossed the changes to combat in 3.0 bring it roaring back. It was always one of those things that made you swear and panic and actually give a crap about hunting. It could definitely do a world of good in PVP too. Give parry a real place.