I was killing large amounts of Bone Warriors with Chain Lighting. I kept seeing my bolts get blocked by their shields. I began playing around to see what pathways or spells worked best, in conjunction with Chain Lightning, to kill as many of the wretched beast as possible in the least time.
First, fully prepping helps a lot.
Tingle is obvious, knocks the shield right out their hands, but it's a single target spell. Not great for the hordes of the undead.
Sure Footing actually showed the most difference. I think it was from the agility boost.
I couldn't find another pathway or spell that made a noticeable difference, but I may have missed something.
I just thought I'd throw a few question out:
Is there a Pathway that helps get around shields?
Does Fire Rain have this problem?
Would Thunderclap help?
Any other suggestions?
MYERS909
JMF90
Re: Shield and Swarms
09/03/2009 09:26 AM CDT
>Would Thunderclap help?
Significantly, because stuns tank balance. Granted, an AOE tingle would probably be better in this case.
Significantly, because stuns tank balance. Granted, an AOE tingle would probably be better in this case.
IRONBONE
Re: Shield and Swarms
09/03/2009 10:30 AM CDT
"Is there a Pathway that helps get around shields?"
Pathway Accuracy will help, if your offense is close to its shield defense. But its more likely to help you hit with such a spell like Lightning Bolt, than CL. I believe the Accuracy pathway only buffs the first bolt of Chain Lightning to hit, not the rest of the bolts.
Otherwise, yeah, spam tingle, changing the cast to second, third, fourth critter...etc. If you're quick enough to you can disarm a lot of critters in a short amount of time.
Macros are your friends!
Then a full prep cast of chain lightning, maybe couple times...to clear the four on yas. Repeat.
Suggestions only.
~Wyns
Pathway Accuracy will help, if your offense is close to its shield defense. But its more likely to help you hit with such a spell like Lightning Bolt, than CL. I believe the Accuracy pathway only buffs the first bolt of Chain Lightning to hit, not the rest of the bolts.
Otherwise, yeah, spam tingle, changing the cast to second, third, fourth critter...etc. If you're quick enough to you can disarm a lot of critters in a short amount of time.
Macros are your friends!
Then a full prep cast of chain lightning, maybe couple times...to clear the four on yas. Repeat.
Suggestions only.
~Wyns
MATTSMOMMA
Re: Shield and Swarms
09/03/2009 10:32 AM CDT
Cl is pretty inaccurate, you might be better off switching to ala + accuracy in emergency swarm situations.
~Arwinia
http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target262.html
~Arwinia
http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target262.html
JMF90
Re: Shield and Swarms
09/03/2009 12:27 PM CDT
For a room full of mobs like the crazy undead swarms, I still think TC + CL will be best for experience. LB is probably going to be the best against shield using creatures though since it ignores shields. ALA is up there because it's ridiculously accurate though.
DUNEPLAY
Weapons vs Spells
08/30/2012 07:51 PM CDT
Once, while sitting in front of the guild, I overheard someone moaning on how he had to train weapons in one place/critter and magic in another.
I would love to avoid that if I can. So the question is, all things being equal, if I have 200 magic ranks and 200 combat ranks, will the damage be the same if I use a spell or weapon on a critter?
I train a lot of weapons so I'm circling slowly and I'm trying to avoid training in different places when I use spells and weapons.
Ithyn
I would love to avoid that if I can. So the question is, all things being equal, if I have 200 magic ranks and 200 combat ranks, will the damage be the same if I use a spell or weapon on a critter?
I train a lot of weapons so I'm circling slowly and I'm trying to avoid training in different places when I use spells and weapons.
Ithyn
CRAVYD
Re: Weapons vs Spells
08/30/2012 10:33 PM CDT
From past experience with my warmie, I'd say your spell will probably do more damage (depending on weapon type, full target, amount of mana used, pathways, etc) assuming it isn't blocked or dodged.
But it doesn't sound like that's what you really want to know. It sounds to me like you want to know whether or not you can train TM as your primary 'weapon' and let the others fall to the wayside as far as training goes. What you want to do, is keep your skillset placement in mind.
I've been told by numerous people that as a warmie, you will always resort to magic as your primary weapon. Mostly, because you learn it faster/easier than weapons, so it will naturally be the highest 'weapon' skill you have if you train each of your 'weapons' equally. So the short-sighted will train TM the most, because it's easier to do.
The problem you're going to develop from this is not being able to survive in areas where you will have to go to actively train TM. Magic is a primary skillset for warmies, so will learn far faster than any of your active defenses. Parry is probably your go-to defense, considering that it learns at a faster rate than Shield and Evasion. The problem with parry is unless you're training your weapons as well, Parry suffers as a defense. This doesn't even take into account that parry is horrid at lower levels, and you can't parry ranged attacks. In my opinion, all characters should have balanced skills, meaning that if someone were to target you with your own Magnetic Ballista, you'd survive the shots. Training your remaining defenses (shield, evasion, armor) is what you will constantly struggle with, as they are tertiary skillsets.
Personally, I mostly train weapons while training up defenses, because you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting for your defenses to catch up if you train TM constantly. I generally spend an equal amount of time on about 4 weapons, so my defenses are constantly moving. I train TM about half as much as my other weapons. It learns so much faster, I don't have to spend as much time training it.
Some people develop their warmies as glass cannons, able to cast and kill huge beasts with whatever spell, but unable to take a hit from lesser creatures. They constantly use buffs to overhunt as much as possible. There are several scripts out there that will basically train your character to the minimum circle requirements, which generally leaves some of your higher circle WM's fairly weak to attacks.
Some people strive for balance and the ability to survive in order to train their primaries effectively. These are the people that generally backtrain constantly. These people also don't circle as fast, trying to maintain their ability to survive.
To each his own. It's all about your personal preference. If you want to circle chase, you'll have survivability issues. You're playing a warrior mage, not a paladin.
But it doesn't sound like that's what you really want to know. It sounds to me like you want to know whether or not you can train TM as your primary 'weapon' and let the others fall to the wayside as far as training goes. What you want to do, is keep your skillset placement in mind.
I've been told by numerous people that as a warmie, you will always resort to magic as your primary weapon. Mostly, because you learn it faster/easier than weapons, so it will naturally be the highest 'weapon' skill you have if you train each of your 'weapons' equally. So the short-sighted will train TM the most, because it's easier to do.
The problem you're going to develop from this is not being able to survive in areas where you will have to go to actively train TM. Magic is a primary skillset for warmies, so will learn far faster than any of your active defenses. Parry is probably your go-to defense, considering that it learns at a faster rate than Shield and Evasion. The problem with parry is unless you're training your weapons as well, Parry suffers as a defense. This doesn't even take into account that parry is horrid at lower levels, and you can't parry ranged attacks. In my opinion, all characters should have balanced skills, meaning that if someone were to target you with your own Magnetic Ballista, you'd survive the shots. Training your remaining defenses (shield, evasion, armor) is what you will constantly struggle with, as they are tertiary skillsets.
Personally, I mostly train weapons while training up defenses, because you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting for your defenses to catch up if you train TM constantly. I generally spend an equal amount of time on about 4 weapons, so my defenses are constantly moving. I train TM about half as much as my other weapons. It learns so much faster, I don't have to spend as much time training it.
Some people develop their warmies as glass cannons, able to cast and kill huge beasts with whatever spell, but unable to take a hit from lesser creatures. They constantly use buffs to overhunt as much as possible. There are several scripts out there that will basically train your character to the minimum circle requirements, which generally leaves some of your higher circle WM's fairly weak to attacks.
Some people strive for balance and the ability to survive in order to train their primaries effectively. These are the people that generally backtrain constantly. These people also don't circle as fast, trying to maintain their ability to survive.
To each his own. It's all about your personal preference. If you want to circle chase, you'll have survivability issues. You're playing a warrior mage, not a paladin.
DUNEPLAY
Re: Weapons vs Spells
08/31/2012 02:42 PM CDT
Thank you, Cravyd for your post. It was specific and very helpful. I think we are training our mages the same way. I love training all weapons but the weird ones (halberd, that sort of thing). And I guess I will just have to constantly backtrain then. I really don't like the idea of being a "glass canon" (great example too).
Ithyn
Ithyn
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/01/2012 04:06 AM CDT
Cravyd's post was generally on the money. Starting off, I'd recommend hunting to your defenses without relying on buffs too much, and don't let your armor, shield, or evasion fall too far behind. You might sometimes find yourself in a pinch or needing to back-train defenses for a bit rather than power-training your target.
However, once you get a moderate way up the critter ladder, creature ranges expand considerably. What starts as a new critter every 20 ranks becomes the same critter for 150 ranks, so training your magic and your defenses on the same creature becomes much more tenable. The broad range of tools available to you via buffs, debuffs, crowd control, AOE, etc. will allow you to extend these ranges even further.
Tertiaty takes some patience but it's very doable if you're consistent.
However, once you get a moderate way up the critter ladder, creature ranges expand considerably. What starts as a new critter every 20 ranks becomes the same critter for 150 ranks, so training your magic and your defenses on the same creature becomes much more tenable. The broad range of tools available to you via buffs, debuffs, crowd control, AOE, etc. will allow you to extend these ranges even further.
Tertiaty takes some patience but it's very doable if you're consistent.
DUNEPLAY
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/01/2012 11:39 AM CDT
Thank you for your thoughtful replies, they help a lot. I guess I am training well then, as my defenses are just slightly lower than my magic ranks, but my weapons are about 50 ranks behind. However, I can still hunt where my magic is useful and I learn even with lower weapons and now I will harder to bring up my weapons. I love defense but I don't train it like folks say you should with no or little burden. I find I learn defense best when I just take the hits.
Ithyn
VEE-REX
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/04/2012 03:13 PM CDT
>>If you want to circle chase, you'll have survivability issues.
I respectfully disagree. It's just a matter of asking is the glass half full or half empty.
There is absolutely no good reason to slow yourself down. Your primaries should naturally end up higher than your terts. As long as you make training defenses the first thing you ever do in each hunting trip you'll be fine. As DA said, critter learning rates expand at higher levels.
If you do this, you will be just as defensive as the WM that slowed down training his primaries, but much much better offensively.
Also, at higher levels critter ranges tend to be near each other. Armadillos are tiered and right next to each other. Celpeze and super celps on Kresh are right next to each other. Assassins and Intercessors are next to each other. So it's not unreasonable or inefficient if you may train primaries in Adults and terts in Juvies, etc...
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I respectfully disagree. It's just a matter of asking is the glass half full or half empty.
There is absolutely no good reason to slow yourself down. Your primaries should naturally end up higher than your terts. As long as you make training defenses the first thing you ever do in each hunting trip you'll be fine. As DA said, critter learning rates expand at higher levels.
If you do this, you will be just as defensive as the WM that slowed down training his primaries, but much much better offensively.
Also, at higher levels critter ranges tend to be near each other. Armadillos are tiered and right next to each other. Celpeze and super celps on Kresh are right next to each other. Assassins and Intercessors are next to each other. So it's not unreasonable or inefficient if you may train primaries in Adults and terts in Juvies, etc...
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
THEREALM
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/04/2012 10:04 PM CDT
>>If you want to circle chase, you'll have survivability issues.
True.
>>I respectfully disagree. It's just a matter of asking is the glass half full or half empty.
Circle chasing is different as a Magic Prime than a Barbarian. Circle chasing as a WM (and I've seen PLENTY who do it) consists of scripting magics at the guild while in a TM class, then running out to 'hunt', and by that I mean kill a bunch of stuff to lock primary weapon, then get right back to the class.
Granted, I'm playing devil's advocate and splitting hairs on the definition of circle chasing. In essence, Vinjince is right - if you train well there's no reason to slow yourself down. Once you embrace skillset differences, critter training ranges, and a couple simple training habits, you'll be set for life.
My training cycle for a new critter looks like this:
1) New critter (usually due to TM requirements), buffing required, perhaps you can't dance with 4 yet, maybe disabling spells required to hit with your off weapons
2) Training groove hit. TM is training, dancing with four, main weapons are cruising, off weapons are moving if a little slow
3) Near moving on. TM is sucking, defenses still moving well (skillset differences), you don't even need buffs to hunt here.
4) TM has stopped training. Judgement call time. Depending on where you want to move next, you may need to just milk defenses for a few ranks. It happens more in the beginning when critters have smaller ranges. I don't really recommend this, but it works for some people, especially those who want to script with minimal attention.
Rinse, repeat.
A couple helpful tips:
1) Always lock defenses first. Always.
2) Train a few weapons, not just circle requirements. I try to keep 3 at primary circle requirements, 3 at secondary.
3) Don't listen to classes for offensive skills. They already move far quicker than defenses, don't increase the gap.
>I find I learn defense best when I just take the hits.
Incorrect. And impossible to do later on. You may run into a situation where you need to drop evasion % to train parry or something, but I find this only happens during step 3 or 4 above, while buffed.
>I guess I am training well then, as my defenses are just slightly lower than my magic ranks, but my weapons are about 50 ranks behind.
A product of training too many weapons. Not my cup of tea, but since your biggest problem will be slow advancement, and it's your time, I can't really call it a bad idea.
>There is absolutely no good reason to slow yourself down. Your primaries should naturally end up higher than your terts. As long as you make training defenses the first thing you ever do in each hunting trip you'll be fine. As DA said, critter learning rates expand at higher levels.
This bears repeating. Tert defenses can only drain so fast. But they also lock quicker than any other skill, so it's really easy to work a lot of training around them. Add in training ranges, and there really isn't as much problem training everything in one place as people thing.
True.
>>I respectfully disagree. It's just a matter of asking is the glass half full or half empty.
Circle chasing is different as a Magic Prime than a Barbarian. Circle chasing as a WM (and I've seen PLENTY who do it) consists of scripting magics at the guild while in a TM class, then running out to 'hunt', and by that I mean kill a bunch of stuff to lock primary weapon, then get right back to the class.
Granted, I'm playing devil's advocate and splitting hairs on the definition of circle chasing. In essence, Vinjince is right - if you train well there's no reason to slow yourself down. Once you embrace skillset differences, critter training ranges, and a couple simple training habits, you'll be set for life.
My training cycle for a new critter looks like this:
1) New critter (usually due to TM requirements), buffing required, perhaps you can't dance with 4 yet, maybe disabling spells required to hit with your off weapons
2) Training groove hit. TM is training, dancing with four, main weapons are cruising, off weapons are moving if a little slow
3) Near moving on. TM is sucking, defenses still moving well (skillset differences), you don't even need buffs to hunt here.
4) TM has stopped training. Judgement call time. Depending on where you want to move next, you may need to just milk defenses for a few ranks. It happens more in the beginning when critters have smaller ranges. I don't really recommend this, but it works for some people, especially those who want to script with minimal attention.
Rinse, repeat.
A couple helpful tips:
1) Always lock defenses first. Always.
2) Train a few weapons, not just circle requirements. I try to keep 3 at primary circle requirements, 3 at secondary.
3) Don't listen to classes for offensive skills. They already move far quicker than defenses, don't increase the gap.
>I find I learn defense best when I just take the hits.
Incorrect. And impossible to do later on. You may run into a situation where you need to drop evasion % to train parry or something, but I find this only happens during step 3 or 4 above, while buffed.
>I guess I am training well then, as my defenses are just slightly lower than my magic ranks, but my weapons are about 50 ranks behind.
A product of training too many weapons. Not my cup of tea, but since your biggest problem will be slow advancement, and it's your time, I can't really call it a bad idea.
>There is absolutely no good reason to slow yourself down. Your primaries should naturally end up higher than your terts. As long as you make training defenses the first thing you ever do in each hunting trip you'll be fine. As DA said, critter learning rates expand at higher levels.
This bears repeating. Tert defenses can only drain so fast. But they also lock quicker than any other skill, so it's really easy to work a lot of training around them. Add in training ranges, and there really isn't as much problem training everything in one place as people thing.
BADGOPHER
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/05/2012 07:56 AM CDT
>3) Don't listen to classes for offensive skills. They already move far quicker than defenses, don't increase the gap.
I semi agree. I listen to classes on TM on occasion just because using the skill can be oddly limited and stop training before I cap offense and defense, and I end up needing only TM to circle. So I take a few ranks in classes for the tdp and spell slots, rather than wait 10-20 more ranks in gear skills to move on.
I semi agree. I listen to classes on TM on occasion just because using the skill can be oddly limited and stop training before I cap offense and defense, and I end up needing only TM to circle. So I take a few ranks in classes for the tdp and spell slots, rather than wait 10-20 more ranks in gear skills to move on.
THEREALM
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/05/2012 12:53 PM CDT
This tends to happen at low circles when you're still circling quickly, and critter teaching ranges are still small. After 60th circle, if you're training well (see above), you should no longer need the TM class stop-gap.
After 80th circle, if TM is still holding you back, you're doing something wrong. I currently have TM requirements for the next 20ish circles, and General Magic holds me back. Most like-circle WMs I know are in the same boat.
After 80th circle, if TM is still holding you back, you're doing something wrong. I currently have TM requirements for the next 20ish circles, and General Magic holds me back. Most like-circle WMs I know are in the same boat.
VAGELO
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/05/2012 07:42 PM CDT
I've been circle chasing recently for 3.0, and so far, went from circle 89 to 95 in the past month. My TM is still set until 102nd circle, and just keeps getting farther ahead. What always holds me back is either Overall Magic, or Primary Weapon (primary would be higher but wasted years worth of time training all weapons). This has been the case since well before 89, and by the time I'm 102nd, TM will be set for 120+. I haven't listened to a TM class in at least a year of playing. I'd much prefer shield, evasion, or any survival/lore skill. Nobody after 80th (or even earlier) should have a problem with TM.
-Master Ndin
BADGOPHER
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/05/2012 08:02 PM CDT
>This tends to happen at low circles when you're still circling quickly, and critter teaching ranges are still small. After 60th circle, if you're training well (see above), you should no longer need the TM class stop-gap.
Was indeed pre 60th. Around the 100 ranks range, probably. I just wanted to throw out that there was a 'valid' reason for listening to TM classes occasionally, is all.
Was indeed pre 60th. Around the 100 ranks range, probably. I just wanted to throw out that there was a 'valid' reason for listening to TM classes occasionally, is all.
THEREALM
Re: Weapons vs Spells
09/07/2012 10:40 AM CDT
>>I just wanted to throw out that there was a 'valid' reason for listening to TM classes occasionally, is all.
If I'm being honest, there are a few cases where listening to a TM class is a good idea. However, in order for them to not very quickly lead to bad training habits and unbearable skill gaps, it requires a much deeper knowledge of skillset differences, training styles and creature ranges than most people have.
So, as a general rule, I just say 'bad idea' and leave it at that.
If I'm being honest, there are a few cases where listening to a TM class is a good idea. However, in order for them to not very quickly lead to bad training habits and unbearable skill gaps, it requires a much deeper knowledge of skillset differences, training styles and creature ranges than most people have.
So, as a general rule, I just say 'bad idea' and leave it at that.
