Went ahead and took that c out of mundance in the subject line, it was bugging me.

Tropicalo, I guess I've just always heard "train a ranged weapon." I do often think about TM's role in this. When I train ranged, it's below level, so I usually just find myself sitting with the creature at melee letting it take swings while I plunk away at it. I do like to train weapons for the TDP benefit, and while your point of gaining more TDPs per time unit through circling is valid, I'm less concerned with higher stats than I am higher stats per circle. Take these two characters for example:

84th circle WM

Str	Ref	Agi	Cha	Dis	Wis	Int	Sta
40	40	35	35	40	38	35	40

85th circle WM

Str	Ref	Agi	Cha	Dis	Wis	Int	Sta
50	50	50	40	42	30	40	40

That's a differential of 10 points on strength and reflex, 15 on agility, 5 on charisma and 2 on discipline, all for 8 under on wisdom. Basically what I'm saying is, I'd rather have 70th circle stats at 60th than 70th circle stats at 70th. I'm sure there's probably a happy medium somewhere, and I feel like I'm beginning to find it now. But like I said, the primary reason I train so many weapons is to have good stats for my circle, not to have the best stats possible for my time spent.

I have taken to heart your stance on HP though, and am going to be switching out my LP pieces for HP in hopes that I can keep HP moving better than dividing the exp between LP and HP.

Vinjince, I'd love to train HT more - I guess I could always pick up short hunting spears. I've got the 40 stone hammer, but it takes 6 seconds to throw currently, so I'm not too stoked on using that. I like LT and use the mallet. I can keep it moving pretty well, and am always just hoping that they make LT a little better. Although it seems like the throwing blades were supposed to be the fix. I know Oolan said not to look at the throwing blades as the end all/be all of LT, but I don't know if there's anything else that's going to be coming along to make it any better. Maybe I will start bringing up HT. As it so happens HT, HX, and SB all are within a few ranks of each other, so I guess I could just run with all three, learning box skills and then skinning along the way. I do feel you though about bows being pretty useless if I'm not trying to be all stealthy. Stealth's just too tedious for me to bother with.

I think the weapon plan is going to be to get strength and agility up to 30 and then start backtraining again. Or 50th circle. Whichever comes last. (probably 30 str/agi)

Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

The advantage is quite simple really and it all depends on your style of play. The extra TDPs per circle make what you NEED to fight to circle easier due to improved stats. Also, and I know that will sound odd it isn't about who can get to be the best FIRST. But who had the MOST fun while doing it. I like training multiple weapons in multiple areas to add diversity to the mix and expand my roleplaying horizions.

Yes but you miss the point of my post the extra TDP from rank allows you to combat the creatures you need to circle easier. The best example being that the hardest thing us a warmage to train is TM. Always will be TM and I do not mind that, and often you find to get the needed ranks of it to circle you must fight above where you normally would. The extra TDPs come in here two-fold your defenses by default will be higher. And you will have a variety of attacking options other than magic should your nerves go to hell your get tired your the creatures resist certain types of damages.

<<But like I said, the primary reason I train so many weapons is to have good stats for my circle, not to have the best stats possible for my time spent.>>

Uh...why? I mean, the former is really meaningless and impractical. The latter is not.

You could do the same thing with skills. "OMG I have 750 TM and I'm only 63rd circle! I'm the most awesomest 63rd circle WM evar!"

So, say you and someone else kick off at the same time. A year later, you're 50th circle and you have substantially better stats than he did back at 50th...

Only he's, y'know, 80th, and still has better stats than you currently do anyway.

Then, eventually, he hits the level cap and gets to go pull in TDPs from all the skills he didn't bother training then with the advantage of 150 circle worth of mentals, too.

Not really seeing the advantage of, "Yeah I have really high stats for 50th circle but it took me 50% longer to get there than most

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>Uh...why? I mean, the former is really meaningless and impractical. The latter is not.
:shrug: Because that's what's fun to me? Don't know how else to easier explain it.

>Then, eventually, he hits the level cap and gets to go pull in TDPs from all the skills he didn't bother training then with the advantage of 150 circle worth of mentals, too.
This is a point of contension that I often think about. That's why I kind of backtrain until I feel I need more strength/agility to be hitting well enough, then I go on a circling run. It's back and forth. And again, that's what's fun for me.

>Not really seeing the advantage of, "Yeah I have really high stats for 50th circle but it took me 50% longer to get there than most
The advantage is, like BFR stated, the ease with which you can hunt with higher stats than normal for your circle.



Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

So, wait, let me get this straight...you're trying to justify spending an excess of time backtraining fairly useless skills because the extra stats make it slightly easier to fight at your (dramatically reduced due to the wasted time) circle?

...

Mkay, first of all...There's nothing extraordinarily difficult about fighting at level, extra stats or not. Really. Most anyone can do it. This goes double for WMs.

Furthermore, where's the net benefit of having an easier time with at-circle creatures, exactly, if it's still taking you longer to make any meaningful progress?

If you do it for fun hey, fine, great, more power to you - but any notion that you're practicing some "intense training regimen" that results in a more effective character is definitely off base.

2 observations.

First, past a certain point is just might BE more efficient to stop circling and backtrain for TDPs. All everyone does is yell, scream moan and complain about how utterly impossible it is to hunt flex critters when certain characters are present. Granted this is at the extreme circles 100+, but could hold true in other situations. Say in Plat, where you don't want to out-circle the population. In those situations it might make sense to backtrain and not circle.

Second, combat seems more balanced in the circle 0-80 range than the 80-150 range. I've even heard of folks at circle 150 in prime not being allowed to compete in tourney's because of their circle. So for many of us it's more fun to stay at a reasonable circle, and get powerful there in that range. +10 stats can make a big difference in a competition you know... Yeah, we're all circle 70-80 with 400 in whatever skill - but I'll win because I'm a better fortified individual.

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http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!

>So for many of us it's more fun to stay at a reasonable circle, and get powerful there in that range.

That's why it's fun to be a moon mage. No need to hunt to circle... you can always backtrain later for fun if you wish to. I can easily see myself hitting 100th circle with less than 200 evasion because I just don't bother training defenses anymore. It's much more fun to blow stuff up from hiding. When I was WM primary years ago I would have thought "omg circle chaser!!1" and now I think "yeaah..."

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>dance sprite
A water sprite laughs and spins away as you approach her for a dance!

>>Sort of like an unethical chess player (a sandbagger) who will deliberately keep his rating tanked in order to take home tournament prizes by playing in a ranking below his actual skill level. Mikem1

Ouch, there is no way that taking your time and working your skills so that your not so narrowly focused and lack a decent variety of skills that pays off in giving you more tp's is anything like what you listed above. I am in no hurry to reach a cap in any game I play, I have more fun exploring and developing the charcter. Probably why I tend to get more irked by GM mechanics changes every few years, I don't like how it upsets what I'm doing with a character almost every time. But that's a different subject.

#1 goal for this game should be to have fun. Some have the most fun being 50th and under, or just circling at their own preferred rate.

If you want to be the most efficient (a lot of people have fun this way), then listen to what Mors and Galren said.


Vinjince

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"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

For what it's worth..

I trained all 3 bows and both thrown to 250 or a bit over. Four out of five of those are completely useless to me.

Heavy thrown is nice as a one-two punch along with a spell because it's so quick and you can use a shield.

I wouldn't recommend bows at all. Light thrown is fun to have but mostly useless. I suppose prydaen barbs can make use of it...
It's kind of a novelty and fun to goof around with.

Which brings me to my next bit of advice..

I wouldn't recommend training to many weapons either. I trained 7 for a really long time but i never have a reason to use any of the skills. I used to think I was doing well and was excited for having such awesome defense/TM/stealth "for my circle". When in reality now I'm just really embarrassed about my primary weapon for my circle. Chances are you(general you) will get over the "for my circle thing" too and realize its sort of pointless.


Needless to say I eventually dropped back on my weapons and now train three. I'm flying through circles now since weapon was what held me back and scooping up TDPs by the bucket. Much much better than all those weapons.



These are purely my opinions and recommendations after looking back on my experiences as a War Mage. It's in no way necessarily the right way to play a War Mage.

The fun way is the right way.

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a black panther comes flying into view! it hits the ground, bouncing once before sliding to a stop.
A black panther is stunned!

Well, I've been thinking about what everyone's suggesting. I am going to trim down the weapons. Now it's just a matter of what I want to mess with long-term. I'm going to list out the pros and cons. If someone feels like helping me trim the fat at this point, I'd be thankful. Warning, this is long and ramblish.

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ME - I fell in love with the sabre. As a Halfling, reasonable balance is nice on an ME. I really like the damage lunge can do. Construction's not great on this 29 stone sabre, but otherwise I love it. I can sport a large shield if necessary and use ME. Per Wabo, ME might not be better down the road (this last point's one of the biggest that's sticking out in my mind) Also, this is my primary weapon. I'm not too keen on dropping it, but what Wabo said has me scared.

Here's what Wabo said, in case anyone is wondering what I'm referencing:

>I also had the added hinderance of having ME as prime weapon and LE as secondary weapon. These weapons work great at low levels, short roundtimes, and lock fast, but in my opinion they stink when you start facing higher level critters.

Now granted, he does later state this as his opinion. But it seems like a point that should be thought about.

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2HE - Damage! Woo! I have a bastard sword, don't train HE, but the r/r is so nice. Severe slice, well constructed. Can't beat any of that with a stick. Only downside I can think of with 2HE is I couldn't use a large shield if I felt I needed to. That's not a huge deal, as I'm primarily going to have to parry with 2HE because none of my other options I can parry with at all. And also that it will take some serious strength training to really bring down the RTs. On the bright side, I can probably get a good bit of mileage with my current 36 stone version.

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HB - This one is pretty much in. This is my current secondary weapon, and really the only thing except ME I can reasonably train in vykathi, which means that it will be the closest thing, if I drop ME, to my primary weapon. I can use a large shield and wield HB. I will have to use some sort of shield, considering balance. This isn't a problem since my shield skill is right on par with evasion as far as hard ranks are concerned. Unfortunately,
strength isn't a Halfling's strong suit. But eventually, I will have all my stats balanced. On a side note, isn't the large femur type HB reasonably balanced? I just thought about this.

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HX - I would really like to use an aimed range-weapon. I know I've got TM. But I like to have all my bases covered from a mundane standpoint as well. I've already got quadrellos and a slurbow, as well as a sig. plat ring to reduce the burden, so this seems like a good option

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HT - I have always liked HT since I acquired my first golden tasseled spear close to 10 years ago. I've got the 40 stone hammer, so I'm good to go. LT is the other side of this option, but everyone seems so down on LT. I've got over 100 ranks LT, 50 HT, but I'm not going to be shy about the backtraining, so that's not a huge factor.

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Brawling - Oh brawling, the enigma. I like the parry stick combo w/ the HT hammer. I can parry with the hammer, and then when it's thrown, parry with the parry stick. This is the primary reason I'm still considering brawling.

---

If you've made it this far, chances are you're sufficiently bored. Thanks for bearing with me. Longbow has pretty much been cut at this point, it's just not feasible for me to always be retreating when I'm fighting at level, and less feasible for me to try to keep up with my stealth training at level. LT has been all but cut, seeing as it doesn't do much damage.
I'm thinking that I should decide on either ME or 2HE. HB is in. I'm having a tough time deciding on HX or HT or HX and HT. I was thinking ideally 4 - 2HE, HB, HX, and HT. Life was easier when I was going to try to keep 6 up near level, but I'm beginning to see that it's just not a realistic goal. There are so many different synergistic sides to the whole situation and so many facets, I'm just at a complete loss. There's a good chance I'm reading way too much into it. But I do tend to try to make things as complicated as possible. If I train brawling, I'll have at least 2 weapons I can train parry with. If I don't, it looks like it's one. Might not end up being a huge deal, but then again, maybe it will be. So:
1: ME/2HE, HB, HT, HX, brawling (is 5 too many? probably)
2: ME/2HE, HB, HT, brawling
3: ME/2HE, HB, HX, brawling
4: ME/2HE, HB, HT, HX

Again, if you made it this far, thanks. Sorry for the horrible horrible rambling of it all. Thanks for any advice. As you can probably tell, I've put a good bit of thought into this.

Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

If I had to choose between the numbers you posted, I'd say numero dos. HX is really slow, and it'll probably become very tedius the higher you get, though if you must have an aimed one then either that or LX should do. Brawling is always good to train. ME and 2HE is decent combination to have. You seem like you really want to train HB, so have at it. HT is the superior ranged weapon of them all for a WM, in my opinion.

So it looks like a nice set of weapons to train.


Vinjince

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"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

>You could consider replacing your ME with HE unless it's too far behind.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm just going to do 2HE. If I were to use a second edged, it would be ME, but all in all, I feel I'll be better down the long road with 2HE.

As sad as it makes me, I do think I might drop HX. I mean, I have TM, right? Surely HT can pick up the slack at least as far as where TM can't go. Sooo, it's maybe looking like 2HE, HB, HT, brawling is it! woo!


Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

I recorded the combat for 10 bristle back peccs with both a 26 stone ME scimitar, and a 70 stone 2HE war mallet. What I found is listed below.

ME 311 ranks
It took 43 hits (using draw slice chop) to kill 10 peccaries, ranging from 2 to 6 hits per kill.

Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with an iridescent blue scimitar, you are certain that the bristle-backed peccary is a relatively easy opponent.

You are certain that it could do:
poor puncture damage, heavy slice damage, poor impact damage


2HE 264 ranks
It took 27 hits (using draw slice chop) to kill 10 peccaries, ranging from 1 to 4 hits per kill.

Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a giant war mallet with a forge-welded head, you are certain that the bristle-backed peccary is a worthy opponent

You are certain that it could do:
low puncture damage, severe slice damage, fair impact damage


Can't wait to try this again when the weapons have equal ranks.
Wabo

Axill it all depends really on what kind of WM you want to be. If you are a circle chaser than take notes from Tropicalo I do believe he has reached his exalted rank in quite possibly the shortest time any war mage ever has.

If you play for stats. Its painfully slow and I suggest you make sure that is what you want to do.

Personally I play for fun and as a result my WM is still a relatively little felow under 70 circles. His motto is:

"Survival is my hobby"

"Weapons are my passion"

"Magic... magic is my LIFE"

What that means is he has every single weapon at 100+ ranks. Yes all 22 of them.

Very nice survival skills. Which take a LOT of work for a WMs as they are thertiary skill sets for us.

What to use in terms of weapons. That is up to personal flavor and what kind of guy you think your WM to be. I do suggest making sure you keep at least one Edge, Blunt and Ranged close to each other as there are slice resistant, impact resistant and range resistant things. Having one of each would give you the ability to hunt just about anywhere.

As for mixing armor....Honestly with the changes training so many types of armors at once down the road makes life painful even with YS up. I suggest you pick HC/LC or HP/LP combos and go with that along with a shield. The extra TDP are just not worth the pain you get from penalties incured for mixing armors that even YS wont help with. Pick up another weapon better off with that.

One thing you really should consider however is beefing your Int/Wisd/Disc up as fast as possible as far as possible. Why? Makes life a LOT easier learning different things. I noticed a big boost to learning once my Disc/Int/Wisd went over 35+ and I am told at 40+ its even better. Its why so many Moon mages are 100+ circles. They go nuts on their mentals so learning new skills fast and moving primaries is relatively quick after that.

Shield is a good idea. I always used a Large shield. I can not be bothered with the arm worn idea as we can only wear small shields being a Amor thert. The difference in defence is just too big to be worth the advantages. This is only true after you get 200+ ranks in shield before that you can stick with a small shield to learn it. Once you cross 200+ ranks of shield you will notice your shield being a very good defence method provided you got a good large shield. And remember NOTHING beats a Large shield with good defence against Ranged/TM.

ON a side note I looked at the two 84th WM stats and you are right. He he he my little 66th felow will have the stats of the first 84th WM who trained for circle at 70th let alone at 84th as all my WM stats are only a few points below what that felow has at 84th. My WM gets on average 200+ TDP from ranks alone per circle easy.

If you are taking HB as your second weapon HT should also be part of your repertoir as most good HT are also HB too. Your hammer is one such weapon.

>I suggest you pick HC/LC or HP/LP combos and go with that along with a shield. The extra TDP are just not worth the pain you get from penalties incured for mixing armors that even YS wont help with.

I am very happy with my combination of HP/LP/HC. The extra evasion penalty when hunting is not significant. If you're at the point where the extra 1-2% hinderance is going to stop you from hunting somewhere, get 5-10 more ranks of evasion somewhere else and you'll be fine. My HC has given me 1157 TDPs from ranks at this point. Definately worth the investment.

>Pick up another weapon better off with that.

Extra armor is passive exp, extra weapon is active. I recommend doing both if the extra weapon doesn't take away from your learning of your main weapons.

>One: You will gain a LOT more TDP FASTER if you circle chase to the point where you Mentals are HIGH as you will learn a LOT more FASTER doing same things same amount of time with higher mentals.

Maybe, if you mean something different by circle chasing than I do. We WMs can train everything we need to circle in combat and far more. Perceptions is the one thing you can't really train in combat most of the time. Other than that, living in combat can maximize your TDPs from ranks and combat effectiveness, and it gets you circling.

>If you are going for TDP you best circle chase till you are 80+ than start bactaining stuff for TDP.

No.

It is better to never have to go backtrain. Being weapons secondary and armor + survival tert makes keeping Parry, Shield, and Evasion all locked at once a trivial task. There is no reason not to train all 3 normally. With the new learning system it is easier to keep multiple skills moving at once. At my level with my mentals I can keep 6 weapons going along with TM. At lower level once you have the stats to get minimum RT you should be able to do even more if you desire, assuming you have enough spawn. Do not be afraid to drop a weapon or two as your ranks and mentals increase and it becomes harder to move them all togather. Its easier than you think to pick them back up later. I was able to pick back up Halberd in Elder Armadillos from 290 ranks thanks to disabling spells and good stats.

-Tropicalo