Just wondering, the entry on Epedia seems to think the new version is DFA and I hadnt had a chance to check that out vs a shield user to see.
TOTLIIO
JULIAN
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 07:45 PM CDT
Frost Scythe is Armor Piercing, not DFA. It does a bit less damage, can be shield blocked, but ignores a portion of the target's armor.
Mazrian
Mazrian
TOTLIIO
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 07:48 PM CDT
Ok that's what I thought, so E-pedia is just incorrect. I thought I missed something.
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 08:21 PM CDT
DFA is just a general category on the wiki for any ability that ignores parts of a defender's defences. See the DFA category page for a full list. It includes armor piercing, shield ignoring, and such.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/DFA
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/DFA
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 08:22 PM CDT
I can consider splitting out the categories, but most would end up with only a single ability in them which is kind of pointless. Either way, it will happen after I get the bulk of the spell edits out anyway.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
JULIAN
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 08:23 PM CDT
Might be worthwhile anyway since the various DFA effects work differently?
Mazrian
Mazrian
BADGOPHER
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 08:31 PM CDT
I think this is one of those times when breaking it out would add clarity. There are a few different DFA effects and they're kinda different.
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 08:34 PM CDT
<<Might be worthwhile anyway since the various DFA effects work differently?
That's the issue, though. Each category would literally have 1 or 2 abilities on the page which isn't a good use of a categorization. E.g. one category would just have HE and HH. Another would just have FRS. Another would just have Backstab. Etc.
I think what would be best is to list the different types in their own sections at the top of the current DFA category with their functional differences. That way we keep the category with it's ~10 abilities and have the differences easily seen at a glance. I'll get to adding that after I'm done the rest of the magic 3.2 stuff.
I'll take suggestions on a better term to use than DFA, since DFA has traditionally meant shield ignoring, although even that has loosened up with changes to HE and HH in recent years. I'm okay with the expanded and more loose definition of DFA meaning ignores at least one type of defence.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
That's the issue, though. Each category would literally have 1 or 2 abilities on the page which isn't a good use of a categorization. E.g. one category would just have HE and HH. Another would just have FRS. Another would just have Backstab. Etc.
I think what would be best is to list the different types in their own sections at the top of the current DFA category with their functional differences. That way we keep the category with it's ~10 abilities and have the differences easily seen at a glance. I'll get to adding that after I'm done the rest of the magic 3.2 stuff.
I'll take suggestions on a better term to use than DFA, since DFA has traditionally meant shield ignoring, although even that has loosened up with changes to HE and HH in recent years. I'm okay with the expanded and more loose definition of DFA meaning ignores at least one type of defence.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 11:22 PM CDT
>I'll take suggestions on a better term to use than DFA, since DFA has traditionally meant shield ignoring, although even that has loosened up with changes to HE and HH in recent years. I'm okay with the expanded and more loose definition of DFA meaning ignores at least one type of defence.
AP does not ignore any defenses, nor does it contest 130% evasion. The only thing they have in common is they do less damage, but they are two separate TM "weapon" templates.
Also, backstab uses DFA? Since when is backstab mechanically a TM spell?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
AP does not ignore any defenses, nor does it contest 130% evasion. The only thing they have in common is they do less damage, but they are two separate TM "weapon" templates.
Also, backstab uses DFA? Since when is backstab mechanically a TM spell?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
DR-RAESH
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/28/2016 11:44 PM CDT
A spell could be both DFA & AP.
Would we make a spell like that? Ehh... I'm leery. But mechanically it's possible. It'd be EXTREMELY situational (Paladin in T6 fullplate and a wall shield?) and the base damage would take such a big hit that outside of that situation it'd be awful. I don't think it'd be a very interesting space to explore either since the two circumstances (Shield and heavy armor) often occur at the same time.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Would we make a spell like that? Ehh... I'm leery. But mechanically it's possible. It'd be EXTREMELY situational (Paladin in T6 fullplate and a wall shield?) and the base damage would take such a big hit that outside of that situation it'd be awful. I don't think it'd be a very interesting space to explore either since the two circumstances (Shield and heavy armor) often occur at the same time.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 01:07 AM CDT
<<AP does not ignore any defenses, nor does it contest 130% evasion. The only thing they have in common is they do less damage, but they are two separate TM "weapon" templates.
<<Also, backstab uses DFA? Since when is backstab mechanically a TM spell?
The point of the discussion is that DFA is currently being used as a blanket organizational term for a group of ability where the target doesn't get to use all of their defensive capability. Whether that being ignoring all or part of a defense. It's certainly fine to be more specific about the naming of similar but different types of those abilities on the wiki, but when there is literally a single example of many of the types then it is a FAR better organizational tactic to include them all the same page with the differentiation between them done in the body of that page rather than splitting them into multiple categories of 1 or 2 abilities each.
In short, the page on the wiki is staying the same in terms of content, since it doesn't make sense to organize it differently. I am absolutely willing to change the page name, however, to make it something other than DFA if people feel that DFA as a term should remain exclusively specific to "spells that ignore shield and only shield" rather than a blanket term for everything on the page. That's the question I am asking. I'm perfectly fine with DFA becoming a blanket term since the term as it is isn't very meaningful in a literal sense, and is really just a relic term from back when shield ignoring spells were the only abilities that fit the blanket category we have now. Changing it also muddies up automatic categorization a bit, but that's nothing that can't be solved with a little bit of extra work on my part.
I'll defer to popular opinion on the category page name, whatever that may be.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
<<Also, backstab uses DFA? Since when is backstab mechanically a TM spell?
The point of the discussion is that DFA is currently being used as a blanket organizational term for a group of ability where the target doesn't get to use all of their defensive capability. Whether that being ignoring all or part of a defense. It's certainly fine to be more specific about the naming of similar but different types of those abilities on the wiki, but when there is literally a single example of many of the types then it is a FAR better organizational tactic to include them all the same page with the differentiation between them done in the body of that page rather than splitting them into multiple categories of 1 or 2 abilities each.
In short, the page on the wiki is staying the same in terms of content, since it doesn't make sense to organize it differently. I am absolutely willing to change the page name, however, to make it something other than DFA if people feel that DFA as a term should remain exclusively specific to "spells that ignore shield and only shield" rather than a blanket term for everything on the page. That's the question I am asking. I'm perfectly fine with DFA becoming a blanket term since the term as it is isn't very meaningful in a literal sense, and is really just a relic term from back when shield ignoring spells were the only abilities that fit the blanket category we have now. Changing it also muddies up automatic categorization a bit, but that's nothing that can't be solved with a little bit of extra work on my part.
I'll defer to popular opinion on the category page name, whatever that may be.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 01:13 AM CDT
<<<<Also, backstab uses DFA? Since when is backstab mechanically a TM spell?
I'll also add, as an aside, that over the last 2 years or we have been converting the wiki spells and NMU abilities over to templates that make use of the same properties so that we can easily produce lists that include both. E.g. a list of all abilities and spells that buff Evasion, or a list of all abilities that heal fatigue. This integration of MU and NMU ability categorization is the full reason why you see Backstab and Eliminate on a list of abilities that ignore at least some of an enemy's defense.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I'll also add, as an aside, that over the last 2 years or we have been converting the wiki spells and NMU abilities over to templates that make use of the same properties so that we can easily produce lists that include both. E.g. a list of all abilities and spells that buff Evasion, or a list of all abilities that heal fatigue. This integration of MU and NMU ability categorization is the full reason why you see Backstab and Eliminate on a list of abilities that ignore at least some of an enemy's defense.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 02:16 AM CDT
Right now you have a category called "DFA" that includes the unrelated DFA, AP, and Backstab mechanics. Where DFA is a kind of DFA? Don't make terms their own hyponms, it's just bad taxonomy.
I'd actually suggest removing the category, since it doesn't serve any more purpose than a category called "causes damage" would. It's adding nothing to the wiki but misinformation.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
I'd actually suggest removing the category, since it doesn't serve any more purpose than a category called "causes damage" would. It's adding nothing to the wiki but misinformation.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 02:48 AM CDT
<<I'd actually suggest removing the category,
The category exists so people can go to a single page to see what kind of attacks they might have to adjust their defenses for in certain situations.
Also, there has to be some property that defines the abilities as a type for the spell template, so the property and categorization is staying in some form. I will count your vote as a stickler for the very explicit historical definition of "Death from above" (which, incidentally, only applies in a literal sense to the case of Burn which is where the term originally came from) as targeted magic spells that only ignore shield.
Although, I'm curious if you count Harm Evil and Harm Horde in that DFA group or not, since they also ignore a portion of armor? I suppose those could be considered Raesh's aforementioned combination of DFA and armor piercing spells, although I doubt it uses the same armor piercing mechanics as the new armor piercing template does. See now why it's not quite so straight forward?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
The category exists so people can go to a single page to see what kind of attacks they might have to adjust their defenses for in certain situations.
Also, there has to be some property that defines the abilities as a type for the spell template, so the property and categorization is staying in some form. I will count your vote as a stickler for the very explicit historical definition of "Death from above" (which, incidentally, only applies in a literal sense to the case of Burn which is where the term originally came from) as targeted magic spells that only ignore shield.
Although, I'm curious if you count Harm Evil and Harm Horde in that DFA group or not, since they also ignore a portion of armor? I suppose those could be considered Raesh's aforementioned combination of DFA and armor piercing spells, although I doubt it uses the same armor piercing mechanics as the new armor piercing template does. See now why it's not quite so straight forward?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
HASTALUEGO
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 06:13 AM CDT
>>which, incidentally, only applies in a literal sense to the case of Burn
Lightning bolt?
Sorry, pointless mention, I know.
In general I agree with FAMEBRIGHT but I'm not really hung up about all of this either.
Lightning bolt?
Sorry, pointless mention, I know.
In general I agree with FAMEBRIGHT but I'm not really hung up about all of this either.
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 06:15 AM CDT
What I've decided to do, now that magic 3.2 editing is mostly behind me, is re-name the current DFA page to a page called "Defense ignoring abilities," and add additional descriptive properties for the spell templates such as 'armor piercing' that will all link the spell pages to the re-named category page where descriptions of each will be listed.
People who want to be able to see all abilities that can ignore defenses in one place are happy, and people who want to see historic terminology remain specific are happy. Win, win.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
People who want to be able to see all abilities that can ignore defenses in one place are happy, and people who want to see historic terminology remain specific are happy. Win, win.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 01:53 PM CDT
Do note that the AP and DFA flags are already stored in the 'effects' field of the template where they belong unless you're going to start individually flagging spells for '75% fire damage.'
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
DR-RAESH
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 01:55 PM CDT
>>Although, I'm curious if you count Harm Evil and Harm Horde in that DFA group or not, since they also ignore a portion of armor? I suppose those could be considered Raesh's aforementioned combination of DFA and armor piercing spells, although I doubt it uses the same armor piercing mechanics as the new armor piercing template does. See now why it's not quite so straight forward?
Technically a spell can:
1) Ignore shield (aka DFA).
2) Pierce Armor (FrS, PD).
3) Ignore Armor (HE/HH).
So HE/HH technically combine 1 & 3. We created 2 because "ignore armor" is just so sickeningly powerful it's not appropriate in most cases, but the flags are all independent.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Technically a spell can:
1) Ignore shield (aka DFA).
2) Pierce Armor (FrS, PD).
3) Ignore Armor (HE/HH).
So HE/HH technically combine 1 & 3. We created 2 because "ignore armor" is just so sickeningly powerful it's not appropriate in most cases, but the flags are all independent.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ABSOLON
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 02:03 PM CDT
<<1) Ignore shield (aka DFA).
<<2) Pierce Armor (FrS, PD).
<<3) Ignore Armor (HE/HH).
<<So HE/HH technically combine 1 & 3. We created 2 because "ignore armor" is just so sickeningly powerful it's not appropriate in most cases, but the flags are all independent.
Sweet! Those will be at least three of the properties for sure. A few questions...
Do you happen to know if Soul Attrition uses the standard DFA check of ignore shield? It kind of lists it in a couple different ways on the wiki right now, so I want to make sure.
Also, the wiki currently states this: "A successful backstab uses the current DFA mechanics which gives the target a 15% defensive penalty on average." It wasn't written by me, so I just want to see if that is accurate using the technical definition of DFA or if it is its own type of shield ignoring formula.
And also, also... Khri Eliminate currently says this: "Removes target's armor and shield for ~10 seconds. Only works with Small Edged weapons." So does that make it a 1 and 3 combo like HE/HH, or a different kind of ignore shield and 3 combo?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
<<2) Pierce Armor (FrS, PD).
<<3) Ignore Armor (HE/HH).
<<So HE/HH technically combine 1 & 3. We created 2 because "ignore armor" is just so sickeningly powerful it's not appropriate in most cases, but the flags are all independent.
Sweet! Those will be at least three of the properties for sure. A few questions...
Do you happen to know if Soul Attrition uses the standard DFA check of ignore shield? It kind of lists it in a couple different ways on the wiki right now, so I want to make sure.
Also, the wiki currently states this: "A successful backstab uses the current DFA mechanics which gives the target a 15% defensive penalty on average." It wasn't written by me, so I just want to see if that is accurate using the technical definition of DFA or if it is its own type of shield ignoring formula.
And also, also... Khri Eliminate currently says this: "Removes target's armor and shield for ~10 seconds. Only works with Small Edged weapons." So does that make it a 1 and 3 combo like HE/HH, or a different kind of ignore shield and 3 combo?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
DR-RAESH
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/29/2016 02:06 PM CDT
The thief stuff is it's own beast.
SA: Ignores shield.
Backstab: I don't know offhand.
Eliminate: Different mechanics, similar end result. Extremely powerful.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
SA: Ignores shield.
Backstab: I don't know offhand.
Eliminate: Different mechanics, similar end result. Extremely powerful.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
NINEVAH1
Re: Frost Scythe is DFA?
07/30/2016 06:23 PM CDT
>>Also, the wiki currently states this: "A successful backstab uses the current DFA mechanics which gives the target a 15% defensive penalty on average." It wasn't written by me, so I just want to see if that is accurate using the technical definition of DFA or if it is its own type of shield ignoring formula.
IIRC I wrote that using information that Kodius provided during a debate about BS's , and DFA's, power somewhere in the Barb folders. Again IIRC, he said that BS uses standard DFA mechanics. The 15% average penalty really applies to all DFA, not just BS. I think I just tacked it onto the BS info because I was lazy.
As far as Khri Eliminate it's all accurate, except I'm not sure if it ignores a percentage of armor or all armor. Someone behind the scenes would have to clarify that.
IIRC I wrote that using information that Kodius provided during a debate about BS's , and DFA's, power somewhere in the Barb folders. Again IIRC, he said that BS uses standard DFA mechanics. The 15% average penalty really applies to all DFA, not just BS. I think I just tacked it onto the BS info because I was lazy.
As far as Khri Eliminate it's all accurate, except I'm not sure if it ignores a percentage of armor or all armor. Someone behind the scenes would have to clarify that.
