I'm trying to plan out my warrior mage, and I'm getting stuck on which cyclics are better for which situations. I then realized that I don't know much about when to use which spell. So some questions:
1. Is physical damage generally better than elemental damage?
2. When should I use a multi-shot vs single shot spell?
3. When do I want a rapidly pulsing spell (fire rain) vs a slowly pulsing spell (ring of spears)?
4. When is nerve damage better (eddy) than raw damage (fire rain)?
5. Are the fir familiar bonuses noticeable, or should I just choose the aesthetics I prefer?
6. If I put 5 mana into a spell, does pathway conserve increase damage because I've increased mana over the minimum? Is it better than pathway damage?
7. Do pathways work on cyclics?
8. Do pathways all teach the same?
9. Does PW trigger ROS? Is it worth the mana, or is it better to use a TM spell?
10. How much summoning is required to arbitrarily choose an opposition element?
DERIUM
JULIAN
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 11:34 AM CDT
Hmmm.
I'm trying to plan out my warrior mage, and I'm getting stuck on which cyclics are better for which situations. I then realized that I don't know much about when to use which spell. So some questions:
>>1. Is physical damage generally better than elemental damage?
Elemental is generally better because lots of things use armor that is relatively weak vs the elemental damage types, but it depends on the target.
>>2. When should I use a multi-shot vs single shot spell?
As things currently stand probably never, but there may be exceptions. In theory, against lightly armored targets or targets that are harder to hit, multishot should be better. In practice they take 50% longer to target and the way armor works makes a handful of weak attacks worse than one stronger attack even if the total damage looks higher in the first case.
>>3. When do I want a rapidly pulsing spell (fire rain) vs a slowly pulsing spell (ring of spears)?
The cyclic TM spells go in this order, from fastest pulse to slowest: Rimefang --> Ring of Spears --> Fire Rain.
Pulse speed is not the best way to evaluate these. If you need to hit as many things as possible as soon as possible, Fire Rain is your spell because it can hit things at missile or unengaged. If you want to hit things at melee with you, Rimefang is probably the right choice as long as you have enough skill to generate 3 blades. If you don't have enough skill to use Rimefang effectively but still want melee AOE cyclic damage, use Ring of Spears.
>>4. When is nerve damage better (eddy) than raw damage (fire rain)?
Umm...they serve different purposes. If you´re trying to do as much damage as possible then use raw damage. If you´re trying to train then nerve damage is better, because the penalties it stacks on your opponents make almost all aspects of combat easier.
>>5. Are the fir familiar bonuses noticeable, or should I just choose the aesthetics I prefer?
It´s pretty minor. Do whatever.
>>6. If I put 5 mana into a spell, does pathway conserve increase damage because I've increased mana over the minimum? Is it better than pathway damage?
Dunno. My intuition says Damage is better but I´ve never tested it.
>>7. Do pathways work on cyclics?
Also dunno. I think so?
>>8. Do pathways all teach the same?
No. The Pathways you learn later cost more charge and teach better. The way to maximize your learning per minute (arbitrary metric, but hey)from running Pathways is to run the most difficult Pathway you´ve got within your aligned element.
>>9A. Does PW trigger ROS?
Yes.
>>9B. Is it worth the mana, or is it better to use a TM spell?
Why would you spend 8-10 seconds setting up a PW to pull something through your Ring of Spears and accomplish literally nothing else? If you're hunting, that is needlessly complicated and worse than just hitting something with a TM spell. If you're PvPing then literally every aspect of this strategy is doing it wrong. First, because during a duel you're advancing, retreating, changing rooms, and generally doing all the things that cause ROS to shut down and defeat the purpose of casting PW. Second, because a single-target TM spell will do more damage than getting pulled through ROS once while taking the same 8 second targeting time. Third, because if you ARE standing still to let your ROS pulse and your opponent isn't beating you down because you've surrendered initiative, you're outclassing them and could just do whatever.
>>10. How much summoning is required to arbitrarily choose an opposition element?
I think around 800, maybe 850? There's a random roll involved. You'll be able to do it after a ton of failure long before you can do it consistently.
Mazrian
I'm trying to plan out my warrior mage, and I'm getting stuck on which cyclics are better for which situations. I then realized that I don't know much about when to use which spell. So some questions:
>>1. Is physical damage generally better than elemental damage?
Elemental is generally better because lots of things use armor that is relatively weak vs the elemental damage types, but it depends on the target.
>>2. When should I use a multi-shot vs single shot spell?
As things currently stand probably never, but there may be exceptions. In theory, against lightly armored targets or targets that are harder to hit, multishot should be better. In practice they take 50% longer to target and the way armor works makes a handful of weak attacks worse than one stronger attack even if the total damage looks higher in the first case.
>>3. When do I want a rapidly pulsing spell (fire rain) vs a slowly pulsing spell (ring of spears)?
The cyclic TM spells go in this order, from fastest pulse to slowest: Rimefang --> Ring of Spears --> Fire Rain.
Pulse speed is not the best way to evaluate these. If you need to hit as many things as possible as soon as possible, Fire Rain is your spell because it can hit things at missile or unengaged. If you want to hit things at melee with you, Rimefang is probably the right choice as long as you have enough skill to generate 3 blades. If you don't have enough skill to use Rimefang effectively but still want melee AOE cyclic damage, use Ring of Spears.
>>4. When is nerve damage better (eddy) than raw damage (fire rain)?
Umm...they serve different purposes. If you´re trying to do as much damage as possible then use raw damage. If you´re trying to train then nerve damage is better, because the penalties it stacks on your opponents make almost all aspects of combat easier.
>>5. Are the fir familiar bonuses noticeable, or should I just choose the aesthetics I prefer?
It´s pretty minor. Do whatever.
>>6. If I put 5 mana into a spell, does pathway conserve increase damage because I've increased mana over the minimum? Is it better than pathway damage?
Dunno. My intuition says Damage is better but I´ve never tested it.
>>7. Do pathways work on cyclics?
Also dunno. I think so?
>>8. Do pathways all teach the same?
No. The Pathways you learn later cost more charge and teach better. The way to maximize your learning per minute (arbitrary metric, but hey)from running Pathways is to run the most difficult Pathway you´ve got within your aligned element.
>>9A. Does PW trigger ROS?
Yes.
>>9B. Is it worth the mana, or is it better to use a TM spell?
Why would you spend 8-10 seconds setting up a PW to pull something through your Ring of Spears and accomplish literally nothing else? If you're hunting, that is needlessly complicated and worse than just hitting something with a TM spell. If you're PvPing then literally every aspect of this strategy is doing it wrong. First, because during a duel you're advancing, retreating, changing rooms, and generally doing all the things that cause ROS to shut down and defeat the purpose of casting PW. Second, because a single-target TM spell will do more damage than getting pulled through ROS once while taking the same 8 second targeting time. Third, because if you ARE standing still to let your ROS pulse and your opponent isn't beating you down because you've surrendered initiative, you're outclassing them and could just do whatever.
>>10. How much summoning is required to arbitrarily choose an opposition element?
I think around 800, maybe 850? There's a random roll involved. You'll be able to do it after a ton of failure long before you can do it consistently.
Mazrian
DERIUM
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 12:00 PM CDT
> The cyclic TM spells go in this order, from fastest pulse to slowest: Rimefang --> Ring of Spears --> Fire Rain.
I was basing those numbers off Elanthipedia. They show Fire Rain pulsing every 12 seconds and Ring of Spears pulsing every 20. How fast does Rimefang pulse? Is elanthipedia wrong?
> Umm...they serve different purposes.
I get that, but it seems like the damage/stun from Fire Rain makes provides a more effective debuff than full paralysis from EE. (PVE)
AMISH
BADGOPHER
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 12:50 PM CDT
To expand a little on Maz, I'd like to point out that while Eddy does 'nerve damage' it's capped at a non-lethal value.
The function of Eddy is actually as a debilitation spell to make training easier, since nerve damage applies a pretty hefty penalty to critters. It's sort of like cleric's version of hydra hex. I can't recommend it enough, it's awesome. Especially since you can pick it up so early. Totally worth getting ASAP and using it until you have another spell compete for the cyclic slot.
But the spell itself doesn't really deal damage. Pretend it applies a permanent penalty to the critter instead, which takes a few pulses to hit max power. With other cyclics once you stop casting them they wear off. Eddy doesn't.
The function of Eddy is actually as a debilitation spell to make training easier, since nerve damage applies a pretty hefty penalty to critters. It's sort of like cleric's version of hydra hex. I can't recommend it enough, it's awesome. Especially since you can pick it up so early. Totally worth getting ASAP and using it until you have another spell compete for the cyclic slot.
But the spell itself doesn't really deal damage. Pretend it applies a permanent penalty to the critter instead, which takes a few pulses to hit max power. With other cyclics once you stop casting them they wear off. Eddy doesn't.
JULIAN
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 01:47 PM CDT
>>I was basing those numbers off Elanthipedia. They show Fire Rain pulsing every 12 seconds and Ring of Spears pulsing every 20. How fast does Rimefang pulse? Is elanthipedia wrong?
Yeah, Elanthipedia is wrong. There's a GM post floating around somewhere to verify against but I couldn't find it. I ran a script to track pulses with Fire Rain and they're 18 seconds apart plus or minus a little. Does anyone know if faster targeting applies to cyclic spells? I feel like the base pulse time was mentioned as 20.
For Rimefang, the blade generating pulses are 20 seconds apart while the attack pulses are 10 seconds apart.
I don't have ROS because I don't like it, but the pulse speed is between the two. Probably 15 seconds.
>>I get that, but it seems like the damage/stun from Fire Rain makes provides a more effective debuff than full paralysis from EE. (PVE)
With Eddy you're doing no physical damage, but stacking up penalties to offense and defense by applying nerve damage. With Fire Rain you're damaging the heck out of everything around you and incidentally getting the benefit of stunning things sometimes. If you're trying to debuff things so that you can train skills, Eddy is better because it applies a debuff but doesn´t prevent things from attacking or damage them other than nerve damage. That way they don't hit you as hard (but still attack like normal) and you hit them more, which is great for learning. Fire Rain is not as good a choice in that scenario because it's stopping things from attacking you by stunning / killing them, and stopping you from getting weapons exp by making things die faster. But those same qualities make Fire Rain a better choice when you really want to kill things quickly.
To back up a bit. A stun is a bigger offensive debuff than full paralysis, sure (100%, since things can't attack while stunned). It's also a bigger defensive debuff than full paralysis. But a stun is not always going to be the best debuff choice for you because you may not want to stop things from attacking. And applying stuns with Fire Rain is never going to be better than debuffing with Eddy if you're training, because Fire Rain is also killing your creatures which gives them less opportunity to train your skills. Does that make sense?
Mazrian
Yeah, Elanthipedia is wrong. There's a GM post floating around somewhere to verify against but I couldn't find it. I ran a script to track pulses with Fire Rain and they're 18 seconds apart plus or minus a little. Does anyone know if faster targeting applies to cyclic spells? I feel like the base pulse time was mentioned as 20.
For Rimefang, the blade generating pulses are 20 seconds apart while the attack pulses are 10 seconds apart.
I don't have ROS because I don't like it, but the pulse speed is between the two. Probably 15 seconds.
>>I get that, but it seems like the damage/stun from Fire Rain makes provides a more effective debuff than full paralysis from EE. (PVE)
With Eddy you're doing no physical damage, but stacking up penalties to offense and defense by applying nerve damage. With Fire Rain you're damaging the heck out of everything around you and incidentally getting the benefit of stunning things sometimes. If you're trying to debuff things so that you can train skills, Eddy is better because it applies a debuff but doesn´t prevent things from attacking or damage them other than nerve damage. That way they don't hit you as hard (but still attack like normal) and you hit them more, which is great for learning. Fire Rain is not as good a choice in that scenario because it's stopping things from attacking you by stunning / killing them, and stopping you from getting weapons exp by making things die faster. But those same qualities make Fire Rain a better choice when you really want to kill things quickly.
To back up a bit. A stun is a bigger offensive debuff than full paralysis, sure (100%, since things can't attack while stunned). It's also a bigger defensive debuff than full paralysis. But a stun is not always going to be the best debuff choice for you because you may not want to stop things from attacking. And applying stuns with Fire Rain is never going to be better than debuffing with Eddy if you're training, because Fire Rain is also killing your creatures which gives them less opportunity to train your skills. Does that make sense?
Mazrian
TEVESHSZAT
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 02:31 PM CDT
>>Where I'm getting lost is understanding when I would use this for training vs other TM spells. It feels, and I absolutely could be doing this wrong, that fire rain does more to debuff defenses through health/stuns than complete paralysis from eddy.
>>I picked up eddy as my first cyclic spell, and I love it; however, now that I can (almost) consistnetly cast fire rain, I'm not sure when I should be using it vs the other tools in my toolkit.
While I haven't used either, I could definitely see a benefit to using EE against mobs that are still a challenge to you. FR might work better when you can hit/kill things fast enough with it, but EE might allow you to (1) hit things you couldn't otherwise hit and (2) debuff them enough so they don't hit you too badly while you try to kill them.
My own experiences with SvS debuffs is that the RNG is a lot more charitable toward your success than normal combat moves. Fire Rain might land a hit or it might not. That hit might be hard or it might not. That hit might stun or it might not. If EE works like every other SvS I've come across, it will pretty much always do what it does unless you're at some really close cusp of success.
If your goal is pure endless killing power where you level stuff ASAP, you'll probably prefer fire rain (or another AoE cyclic). If you want to survive a tough battle and/or enter a more drawn out training session, you might prefer EE.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>I picked up eddy as my first cyclic spell, and I love it; however, now that I can (almost) consistnetly cast fire rain, I'm not sure when I should be using it vs the other tools in my toolkit.
While I haven't used either, I could definitely see a benefit to using EE against mobs that are still a challenge to you. FR might work better when you can hit/kill things fast enough with it, but EE might allow you to (1) hit things you couldn't otherwise hit and (2) debuff them enough so they don't hit you too badly while you try to kill them.
My own experiences with SvS debuffs is that the RNG is a lot more charitable toward your success than normal combat moves. Fire Rain might land a hit or it might not. That hit might be hard or it might not. That hit might stun or it might not. If EE works like every other SvS I've come across, it will pretty much always do what it does unless you're at some really close cusp of success.
If your goal is pure endless killing power where you level stuff ASAP, you'll probably prefer fire rain (or another AoE cyclic). If you want to survive a tough battle and/or enter a more drawn out training session, you might prefer EE.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
2DUMBARSE
Re: How to compare spells
05/23/2016 03:41 PM CDT
Not as experienced with WM3.x as pretty much anyone else here, but I'll second the support for EE. It's one of my favorite spells for training. There aren't a lot of spells that debuff offense and defense in one neat little package.
Cyclic TM in conjunction with other attacks and casts kills too damn fast. It's counter-productive when you're standing in a room waiting for the next creatures to walk in, only to find yourself in the same position soon after. It limits the number of skills you can train for the teedeepees Plus, that EE min prep is awesome.
Cyclic TM is for when you want to kill quickly. When you're training, you should generally not want to kill quickly unless the goal is to maximize earnings.
Cyclic TM in conjunction with other attacks and casts kills too damn fast. It's counter-productive when you're standing in a room waiting for the next creatures to walk in, only to find yourself in the same position soon after. It limits the number of skills you can train for the teedeepees Plus, that EE min prep is awesome.
Cyclic TM is for when you want to kill quickly. When you're training, you should generally not want to kill quickly unless the goal is to maximize earnings.
SARAGOS
Re: How to compare spells
05/26/2016 07:05 PM CDT
I was first able to change my opposition element freely at around 500 ranks in Summoning, or a little after. I definitely failed a few times before I was able to do it. I have no idea which stats, if any, factor into your ability to do this.
> Fire Rain vs Rimefang
I've been rather down on Fire Rain lately. It's, IMO, the worst of the cyclics, but the only option for mass damage that doesn't care about engagement, which makes it the right tool for that very specific job. So it's great for invasions or clearing rooms where you're protecting others. This is the same category Chain Lightning is in. In other situations where the creatures are all engaged with you, I generally lean towards Rimefang.
- Saragos
> Fire Rain vs Rimefang
I've been rather down on Fire Rain lately. It's, IMO, the worst of the cyclics, but the only option for mass damage that doesn't care about engagement, which makes it the right tool for that very specific job. So it's great for invasions or clearing rooms where you're protecting others. This is the same category Chain Lightning is in. In other situations where the creatures are all engaged with you, I generally lean towards Rimefang.
- Saragos
TOTLIIO
Re: How to compare spells
05/27/2016 01:14 PM CDT
It's worth noting that while Rimefang is a far more dangerous and damaging spell than Ring of spears, ROS most definitely teaches better, since you are smaller (I think?) you might want to factor that in. Rimefang really takes a bit more skill to peak.
