Anyone else having trouble roleplaying their "image" of a trader in modern-day Elanthia? I'm a mid-40s, overweight, balding merchant, but with the new reqs I'm forced to pick up a sword and trek out into the wilderness and actually, heaven forbid, fight something.
With the new magic systems coming in the future, I'll not only have to be an able combatant, but a magician, as well.
Just doesn't sit right with me, considering traders were always supposed to be just traders.
Anyone have similar or differing opinions? I'd like to hear them! :)
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
DRTYPRIOR
SHADOW7988
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 09:04 AM CDT
Umm, trying to remember the GM. But just because a previous GM stated such and such, doesn't mean that these GMs are bound by that.
Essentially the game is changing, as a whole. I hope traders are still traderly.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Essentially the game is changing, as a whole. I hope traders are still traderly.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
MAGIC1300
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 03:28 PM CDT
I agree, it sucks. I liked back in the day when Traders, MMs, and Empaths were all viable non-combat guilds that you could still circle in, for those people that didn't want to hunt. Forcing all guilds into combat is a poor design decision IMO, but that ship has already sailed.
DYERA7
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 04:53 PM CDT
>I'm a mid-40s, overweight, balding merchant
Maybe something like light blunt of short staff would fit better than a sword with that picture. I just don't think of round people carrying poiny weapons. Have you thought about the metal food-shaped weapons from Goods for Life? They're funny; I love that metal bread.
Maybe something like light blunt of short staff would fit better than a sword with that picture. I just don't think of round people carrying poiny weapons. Have you thought about the metal food-shaped weapons from Goods for Life? They're funny; I love that metal bread.
ELLUSIONZ
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 05:48 PM CDT
We should be able to secretly pay off the guild to push past those skill requirements :)
On a whim...: http://www.lostonawhim.com/
The Zoluren army asks, "We're um.... really sorry about the clubhouse and all... so uh... are we cool?"
Train? Why? I'll get there eventually...
On a whim...: http://www.lostonawhim.com/
The Zoluren army asks, "We're um.... really sorry about the clubhouse and all... so uh... are we cool?"
Train? Why? I'll get there eventually...
DRTYPRIOR
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 06:39 PM CDT
>We should be able to secretly pay off the guild to push past those skill requirements :)
Funny you should mention! Every time you circle with Ansprahv, he mentions you paying him off to get ahead! Now if only that were a real feature, my fat, balding merchant wouldn't have to pick up any weapon! :P
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
Funny you should mention! Every time you circle with Ansprahv, he mentions you paying him off to get ahead! Now if only that were a real feature, my fat, balding merchant wouldn't have to pick up any weapon! :P
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
DRTYPRIOR
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 06:42 PM CDT
>Maybe something like light blunt of short staff would fit better than a sword with that picture.
I definitely thought about a "walking stick" type weapon. I also saw a whip, that he might wear when driving caravans, but I don't think it was actually a weapon...
>Have you thought about the metal food-shaped weapons from Goods for Life?
He's interested in eating the real delicacies in life, not tossing about metal versions at critters who might actually do him harm. I mean, those things might actually hurt him! Let the adventurers muck about in the docks with the ship rats; he's too busy plying his wares!
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
I definitely thought about a "walking stick" type weapon. I also saw a whip, that he might wear when driving caravans, but I don't think it was actually a weapon...
>Have you thought about the metal food-shaped weapons from Goods for Life?
He's interested in eating the real delicacies in life, not tossing about metal versions at critters who might actually do him harm. I mean, those things might actually hurt him! Let the adventurers muck about in the docks with the ship rats; he's too busy plying his wares!
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
REASONMJ
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 07:28 PM CDT
>>I agree, it sucks. I liked back in the day when Traders, MMs, and Empaths were all viable non-combat guilds that you could still circle in, for those people that didn't want to hunt. Forcing all guilds into combat is a poor design decision IMO, but that ship has already sailed.
I'll agree that the non-combat design for Moonmages was great in that they had the option to circle while avoiding combat altogether, but they still got many combat abilities for those people who wanted to do combat. Even for Empaths they had a bunch of combat abilities available, although they had massive restrictions on what they were allowed to fight against. But having purely non-combat guilds with zero combat abilities in a game that revolves nearly completely around combat is really terrible design.
The changes that they made are awesome for the guild in the long term. It only sucks so bad right now because we have the real combat requirements but still have no combat abilities. Once (IF??) that gets fixed, Traders will actually be a non-laughingstock guild that more people will find interesting to play as a main character.
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
I'll agree that the non-combat design for Moonmages was great in that they had the option to circle while avoiding combat altogether, but they still got many combat abilities for those people who wanted to do combat. Even for Empaths they had a bunch of combat abilities available, although they had massive restrictions on what they were allowed to fight against. But having purely non-combat guilds with zero combat abilities in a game that revolves nearly completely around combat is really terrible design.
The changes that they made are awesome for the guild in the long term. It only sucks so bad right now because we have the real combat requirements but still have no combat abilities. Once (IF??) that gets fixed, Traders will actually be a non-laughingstock guild that more people will find interesting to play as a main character.
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
ELRIIC
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 08:07 PM CDT
Giving the guild combat reqs now without giving them combat abilities, was just wrong. Plain and simple. It's not worth the effort for me to do anything other than get my bare minimum combat from listening to classes when I have to work three times as hard for a tenth of the reward.
You can try to justify it to yourselves any way you want but this stinks.
ROBERTDH
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 08:12 PM CDT
A few years ago Elanthia saw the trade routes across the continent literally swarming with murderous corpses. You could see the new Trader requirements as a reaction to that -- gotta encourage the membership to protect the guild's investment in their lives.
ELRIIC
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 09:14 PM CDT
Okay, I can completely buy that. Where are our abilities? Explain.
DYERA7
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 09:59 PM CDT
I flat out deny the premise that traders are some how ill equiped to deal with combat. Training doesn't require much of anything at all; performance is something different. And critters are super easy, so it doesn't take much to do well against them. As a point, I've got a bunch more combat skill than required just because:
You have enough Trading for Circle 36 and need 4 (182) ranks for circle 37
You have enough 1st Armor (Brigandine) for Circle 59 and need 3 (170) ranks for circle 60
You have enough 2nd Survival (Evasion) for Circle 66 and need 2 (191) ranks for circle 67
You have enough 5th Survival (Locksmithing) for Circle 70 and need 2 (133) ranks for circle 71
You have enough 1st Weapon (Small Edged) for Circle 80 and need 1 (163) ranks for circle 81
You have enough 2nd Armor (Shield Usage) for Circle 82 and need 3 (169) ranks for circle 83
You have enough Trading for Circle 36 and need 4 (182) ranks for circle 37
You have enough 1st Armor (Brigandine) for Circle 59 and need 3 (170) ranks for circle 60
You have enough 2nd Survival (Evasion) for Circle 66 and need 2 (191) ranks for circle 67
You have enough 5th Survival (Locksmithing) for Circle 70 and need 2 (133) ranks for circle 71
You have enough 1st Weapon (Small Edged) for Circle 80 and need 1 (163) ranks for circle 81
You have enough 2nd Armor (Shield Usage) for Circle 82 and need 3 (169) ranks for circle 83
REASONMJ
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 10:57 PM CDT
>>I flat out deny the premise that traders are some how ill equiped to deal with combat.
Can it be done? Sure. I have enough combat skills for level 190 Trader reqs.
Traders ARE very ill-equipped to deal with combat though, even for training against creatures. You can only really hunt certain creatures when your weapon skills are tertiary, you have no buffs, no disablers, and no magical attack spells (which would also be tertiary anyways even if we did have them).
Up to 200-300 ranks it's not tough since having weapon ranks 30%+ lower than defenses is still not very many total ranks yet, and somewhere in that range you reach gryphons which absolutely anyone could milk for exp while blindfolded. But after that your options get VERY limited
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
Can it be done? Sure. I have enough combat skills for level 190 Trader reqs.
Traders ARE very ill-equipped to deal with combat though, even for training against creatures. You can only really hunt certain creatures when your weapon skills are tertiary, you have no buffs, no disablers, and no magical attack spells (which would also be tertiary anyways even if we did have them).
Up to 200-300 ranks it's not tough since having weapon ranks 30%+ lower than defenses is still not very many total ranks yet, and somewhere in that range you reach gryphons which absolutely anyone could milk for exp while blindfolded. But after that your options get VERY limited
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
DRTYPRIOR
Re: New Systems
06/14/2013 11:28 PM CDT
>I'll agree that the non-combat design for Moonmages was great in that they had the option to circle while avoiding combat altogether, but they still got many combat abilities for those people who wanted to do combat. Even for Empaths they had a bunch of combat abilities available, although they had massive restrictions on what they were allowed to fight against. But having purely non-combat guilds with zero combat abilities in a game that revolves nearly completely around combat is really terrible design.
You bring up a good point. I realize they did the whole, you must fight now because it's balancing the classes, but it really ruined the whole "idea" of my vision of trader! I'm all for you guys developing fun and interesting tactics to use in combat while protecting your caravans, but what about the traders who just want to hire a mercenary group to protect them for us? I want to be sitting on my veranda sipping a fine wine while I peruse Elanthia's version of the Wall Street Journal as I prepare to head to my massively overpriced shop in the Crossing Market Plaza - and I just don't think learning weapons, armor, or magic should come in the way of that - all for the sake of some nebulous skill balance equation. I don't want to be selfish tho, as it shouldn't be too hard for me to RP my disdain for the magic and combats that I have to - behind the scenes - train for.
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
You bring up a good point. I realize they did the whole, you must fight now because it's balancing the classes, but it really ruined the whole "idea" of my vision of trader! I'm all for you guys developing fun and interesting tactics to use in combat while protecting your caravans, but what about the traders who just want to hire a mercenary group to protect them for us? I want to be sitting on my veranda sipping a fine wine while I peruse Elanthia's version of the Wall Street Journal as I prepare to head to my massively overpriced shop in the Crossing Market Plaza - and I just don't think learning weapons, armor, or magic should come in the way of that - all for the sake of some nebulous skill balance equation. I don't want to be selfish tho, as it shouldn't be too hard for me to RP my disdain for the magic and combats that I have to - behind the scenes - train for.
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
ELRIIC
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 12:04 AM CDT
<<I want to be sitting on my veranda sipping a fine wine while I peruse Elanthia's version of the Wall Street Journal as I prepare to head to my massively overpriced shop in the Crossing Market Plaza - and I just don't think learning weapons, armor, or magic should come in the way of that
I'm with this guy. I didn't start my trader to play patty cake with rock trolls.
I'm with this guy. I didn't start my trader to play patty cake with rock trolls.
DIAME
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 01:41 AM CDT
I have to say the first time I logged in Ciressa after 3.0 and saw her new reqs, my heart sank and the first thing I said was, "Well, she'll never circle again." She's not a combat trader, never will be and it'll take forever to learn all those survival and combat reqs by classes. I'm not really happy about the decision to force combat on all guilds now. I always enjoyed the fact that we had some guilds that never required it and I'm not thrilled with the changes. So yes, there's my two coppers for what it's worth.
===
My spathas at hand,
From the ashes I rise,
With resolve in my heart,
And fire in my eyes.
===
My spathas at hand,
From the ashes I rise,
With resolve in my heart,
And fire in my eyes.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 06:30 AM CDT
Will any of this change once the Trader magic spells are implimented? My understanding was, as Apu said, once you reach a certain point it's physically painful, difficult, and nearly impossible to train without some buffs to help ease the going.
Pants.
Pants.
ELRIIC
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 06:55 AM CDT
It'll suck less, but still not be something for my part I'll enjoy doing. I mean that's speculation. It could turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread, coke classic, and central air but I'm inclined to think not for all the reasons we got into in this thread.
WINTEREAGLE
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 01:22 PM CDT
I'm 78, I'm too old to be swinging a sword or dodging monsters. I'm rich, I should have my staff of well-paid guards protecting my caravans, not defending it myself.
On a side note, will I die of old age or have to wait till some monster kills my old cranky bag of bones?
I'm not just cold to you, I'm cold to all peasants!
On a side note, will I die of old age or have to wait till some monster kills my old cranky bag of bones?
I'm not just cold to you, I'm cold to all peasants!
BUUWL
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 02:18 PM CDT
I know this isn't real life, but the head of traders in the old days were good with a sword and had to be ready to fight, now matter how many armed guards they had. A great work of fiction and based off a lot of historical fact is "the walking drum" by louie L'Amour. The traders he describes in the middle section of the book are how I always thought of the traders in DR.
ROBERTDH
Re: New Systems
06/15/2013 02:25 PM CDT
>On a side note, will I die of old age or have to wait till some monster kills my old cranky bag of bones?
There is no age-death mechanic, but there have been some signficant changes in how the game handles age cosmetically. See the following Elanthipedia page and the >Age command in-game.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Age
Personally, it doesn't break immersion for me at all that my 76-year-old elderly human is punching her fist into the chests of orc raiders to crush their beating hearts... but she's a warmage.
There is no age-death mechanic, but there have been some signficant changes in how the game handles age cosmetically. See the following Elanthipedia page and the >Age command in-game.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Age
Personally, it doesn't break immersion for me at all that my 76-year-old elderly human is punching her fist into the chests of orc raiders to crush their beating hearts... but she's a warmage.
DARKEVILWHATEVER
Re: New Systems
06/17/2013 12:27 PM CDT
<<I just don't think of round people carrying poiny weapons.>>
Friar Tuck?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k4__zh4GdZA/SyQhYLUf3SI/AAAAAAAAAYo/e5xMkJZkXac/s200/Eugene+Pallette.JPG
http://www.screeninsults.com/images/the-adventures-of-robin-hood-stream2.JPG
Friar Tuck?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k4__zh4GdZA/SyQhYLUf3SI/AAAAAAAAAYo/e5xMkJZkXac/s200/Eugene+Pallette.JPG
http://www.screeninsults.com/images/the-adventures-of-robin-hood-stream2.JPG
SOMNIUM-VISUM
Re: New Systems
06/19/2013 11:10 AM CDT
I have a trader who is 75th circle at the moment, and find there are two core issues.
Firstly, weight. I'm a trader, I'm carrying a lot of things that I plan to sell to people in the future. My vault is full too. I've taken up forging too, so I'm carrying around ingots and such. If I try to go into combat as I am now, I'm going to be dead in a flash.
Secondly, grandfathering. I know this was shaped to help people, and I really shouldn't complain, but I now have a seriously unbalanced character. Armors (shield) got grandfathered by a good 100 ranks, but sadly evasion and parry didn't. This means I need to back train those before I'm even close to safe in a place I can train my shield.
Personally, I have other characters like warrior mages, these are my combat characters, the ones I use to fight, go hunting, get high weapon ranks.... I really don't need another one. I used to love how different the trader guild was, a break from the norm to me, a character I could really enjoy myself on without worrying about what I hunt. The trader guild isn't like that anymore.
Saying that, I'm 75th circle, I have 4 surfaces in my shop, I get a good bonus when I sell pouches, and can do pretty much all the things people need a trader for.... I'll be staying at this circle now.
SPANTONV
Re: New Systems
06/19/2013 01:01 PM CDT
Just curious, but is your caravan storage box full too?
I would deed the ingots. I don't carry raw material around for long either. You don't have to go hunting, just find a teacher.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
I would deed the ingots. I don't carry raw material around for long either. You don't have to go hunting, just find a teacher.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
SOMNIUM-VISUM
Re: New Systems
06/19/2013 02:00 PM CDT
Honestly, I don't even have a caravan. I've never really gotten into that side of things, and wasn't aware they had a storage box either, thanks for the tip.
I've actually been trying to forge quite a bit with him, and I don't play the hours I used to, so its usually a choice... stand in the shop to get sales, mine, forge, or hunt (or teacher if needed), but the learning combats is always going to be the lowest priority to me on the trader, mainly because if I want to put hours into hunting, I'm going to do it on the warrior mage that's on that account instead.
ENOTS
Re: New Systems
06/30/2013 01:28 PM CDT
>>Secondly, grandfathering. I know this was shaped to help people, and I really shouldn't complain, but I now have a seriously unbalanced character. Armors (shield) got grandfathered by a good 100 ranks, but sadly evasion and parry didn't. This means I need to back train those before I'm even close to safe in a place I can train my shield.
I feel your pain: I saw this with shield and tactics too, and had to backtrain evasion to something considerably closer to level so I could train shield and tactics again. Speculate defense helped considerably.
The mind behind...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
I feel your pain: I saw this with shield and tactics too, and had to backtrain evasion to something considerably closer to level so I could train shield and tactics again. Speculate defense helped considerably.
The mind behind...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
RAIST
Re: New Systems
07/14/2013 05:47 PM CDT
Not a trader, but here's my take on it:
You are not a merchant, you are a Trader (capital T). This means you're part of the adventuring class, the people who run goods through dangerous areas, the folk that follow the armies, etc. You are the people who inspired the iditarod and the ice road truckers.
The guild expects you to be able to protect yourself, whether you hire mercenaries or not.
It's the same way soldiers and guards aren't necessarily Barbarians or Paladins. There is a difference between the profession (merchant) and the guild (Trader). They may overlap, but they aren't necessarily the same thing.
You may not choose to play up that aspect, but it's like being a Paladin who hates magic: the guild doesn't care.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
You are not a merchant, you are a Trader (capital T). This means you're part of the adventuring class, the people who run goods through dangerous areas, the folk that follow the armies, etc. You are the people who inspired the iditarod and the ice road truckers.
The guild expects you to be able to protect yourself, whether you hire mercenaries or not.
It's the same way soldiers and guards aren't necessarily Barbarians or Paladins. There is a difference between the profession (merchant) and the guild (Trader). They may overlap, but they aren't necessarily the same thing.
You may not choose to play up that aspect, but it's like being a Paladin who hates magic: the guild doesn't care.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
RAIST
Re: New Systems
07/14/2013 05:48 PM CDT
Thread necro! Finally catching up on my trader topics.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
SCHULTZS3
Re: New Systems
07/15/2013 05:03 PM CDT
FWIW, here's my 111th Trader's current combat skills in decreasing order:
334 Shield (seriously grandfathered)
266 Evasion (I don't think there was any grandfathering, I specifically tweaked it to get Athletics grandfathered)
262 Defending
253 Chain Armor
253 Brawling
253 Stealth
217 Light Armor
215 Skinning
176 Light Thrown
175 Parry
121 Brigandine (backtraining from 0 via classes)
I haven't gone into combat at all since 3.0 due to a combination of burden and all my time spent training up serious lore work, which with all the ingots and work order products for forging adds to the burden. Or playing other alts.
Just today I finally dug armor out of my vault and made a serious work to cut burden, down to Light, and I'll see about backtraining my weapons and brigandine in vipers today. If I get around to it from all seemingly unending non-combat work.
Combat requirements really don't bother me. At 150th circle, I'm expected something like 490 Shield, 470 Evasion, 430 Skinning, and 400 Primary weapon. I don't feel that is particularly onerous to expect for a 150th character. Not when primary skills are expected to be in the 900s. It's more a question of getting into the mindset of "Ok, I need to make a conscious effort to get into combat for a few minutes every day, and keep up with it EVERY DAY". Rather than just "Meh, don't feel like vaulting 30 items and cutting my burden down to dance with critters, I'd rather just keep on pounding out needles and braiding vines."
Naniaki Felyran
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
334 Shield (seriously grandfathered)
266 Evasion (I don't think there was any grandfathering, I specifically tweaked it to get Athletics grandfathered)
262 Defending
253 Chain Armor
253 Brawling
253 Stealth
217 Light Armor
215 Skinning
176 Light Thrown
175 Parry
121 Brigandine (backtraining from 0 via classes)
I haven't gone into combat at all since 3.0 due to a combination of burden and all my time spent training up serious lore work, which with all the ingots and work order products for forging adds to the burden. Or playing other alts.
Just today I finally dug armor out of my vault and made a serious work to cut burden, down to Light, and I'll see about backtraining my weapons and brigandine in vipers today. If I get around to it from all seemingly unending non-combat work.
Combat requirements really don't bother me. At 150th circle, I'm expected something like 490 Shield, 470 Evasion, 430 Skinning, and 400 Primary weapon. I don't feel that is particularly onerous to expect for a 150th character. Not when primary skills are expected to be in the 900s. It's more a question of getting into the mindset of "Ok, I need to make a conscious effort to get into combat for a few minutes every day, and keep up with it EVERY DAY". Rather than just "Meh, don't feel like vaulting 30 items and cutting my burden down to dance with critters, I'd rather just keep on pounding out needles and braiding vines."
Naniaki Felyran
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
