Hi.
I know if clerics train theurgy with their prayers and rituals they also train scholarship. I also know we have crafting work orders to train trading too. How about if we could study every page of the ledger a bit like a compendium teaches empaths a little empathy our ledger could teach us a little trading as well as scholarship.
Or even being able to study the painings at the Ravens Court not only give you Appraisal and scholarship but some trading as well.
I really hope you guys update the caravans and make contract work much better. I'd like to have a few ways of training trading and contract work at this time doesn't train it well.
Thanks.
JSNOWLING
SHIFT3
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/24/2019 09:42 AM CDT
I'm 100% behind this, but I'd love to be able to use these techniques anyway and not just near crossings.
A few suggestions:
A: Quick wins - just add trading xp to actions that already exist
A1. Using speculates. Luck would give you the same as practice breathing (16/34) and coin would give you the same as whistle piercing (4/34).
A2. Appraising an item gives traders trading experience in addition to appraisal experience. And add a bucket of xp when you appraise yourself or someone else. You already see messages detailing a person's wealth, and you get all three currencies for everything they're wearing, but it doesn't teach like you just appraised everything at once.
A3. Similar to B5 below, appraise focus teaches trading. Maybe only when you app focus a ledger or tie it lore skills or have it work always.
A4. Haggling with merchants for prices. You don't even have to buy it, but you get 2/34 xp when they come back with a counter offer.
B: Slightly more complicated - modify existing code to do something new
B1. New function for the tessera. You practice negotiation with the arbiter. Maybe it's a magic buff. Maybe it's just a training mechanic. Something simple, which could be used for training purposes (hopefully not super limited - traders need a LOT of trading). Or just even "listen teserra" > you gain more insight into the negotiator's mind and learn a bit more about negotation - teaches 4/34 with a 5 minute CD.
B2. Standing in the sales floor or backroom of your shop pulses trading in the same way as playing an instrument.
B3. Giving trading XP a secondary pool like thievery. Traders and Empaths are often feast or famine. A secondary pool would help them utilize those 5-10 pouches people tend to stock up on before finding a trader.
B4. Give traders access to mark, or their own version. Make it teach trading and appraisal and scholarship in addition to appraisal and scholarship.
B5. Train with clerks in an outpost. Each clerk has their own timer. "Ask clerk about markets" and the clerk gives you a fluff message (random out of 10) and you learn some decent trading with a short CD. A quick round on the outposts would keep the skill moving.
B6. A new type of mirror. Gaze mirror and you get 16/34 trading with a 20 minute CD. Fluff messages about hyping yourself up. And make it give a small trading buff, because why not?
C: Much more complex versions - new code altogether or revamping full systems
C1. Basically clone "play" and rename it "forecast". Create a new type of ledger or financial paper or market report. A "Trader Instrument" if you will. You buy one from the imp daily, or you have one from an MT event/fest shop that always shows the latest info, whatever. They come in different complexities like normal instruments, and have the same or reduced verbs. You then forecast [thing] on [instrument] and the fluff messaging stays mostly the same for difficulty, but it would be mostly generic pulsing text with the same rules as performance. The text would change, and the number of options would be greatly simplified. Scales => Jaron, ditty => trends, lullaby => commodities, polka => (market)health, minuet => fads, tarantella => marketing, fantasia => segmentation, sonata=> (market)research, concerto => speculation.
C2. XP pools for your shop. Anytime anyone buys something from your shop, they put experience into a pool. You can then use a shop verb to absorb some of that experience (up to ML, the rest stays). Similar to how you can ask financed shops about sales, but xp instead of coins.
A few suggestions:
A: Quick wins - just add trading xp to actions that already exist
A1. Using speculates. Luck would give you the same as practice breathing (16/34) and coin would give you the same as whistle piercing (4/34).
A2. Appraising an item gives traders trading experience in addition to appraisal experience. And add a bucket of xp when you appraise yourself or someone else. You already see messages detailing a person's wealth, and you get all three currencies for everything they're wearing, but it doesn't teach like you just appraised everything at once.
A3. Similar to B5 below, appraise focus teaches trading. Maybe only when you app focus a ledger or tie it lore skills or have it work always.
A4. Haggling with merchants for prices. You don't even have to buy it, but you get 2/34 xp when they come back with a counter offer.
B: Slightly more complicated - modify existing code to do something new
B1. New function for the tessera. You practice negotiation with the arbiter. Maybe it's a magic buff. Maybe it's just a training mechanic. Something simple, which could be used for training purposes (hopefully not super limited - traders need a LOT of trading). Or just even "listen teserra" > you gain more insight into the negotiator's mind and learn a bit more about negotation - teaches 4/34 with a 5 minute CD.
B2. Standing in the sales floor or backroom of your shop pulses trading in the same way as playing an instrument.
B3. Giving trading XP a secondary pool like thievery. Traders and Empaths are often feast or famine. A secondary pool would help them utilize those 5-10 pouches people tend to stock up on before finding a trader.
B4. Give traders access to mark, or their own version. Make it teach trading and appraisal and scholarship in addition to appraisal and scholarship.
B5. Train with clerks in an outpost. Each clerk has their own timer. "Ask clerk about markets" and the clerk gives you a fluff message (random out of 10) and you learn some decent trading with a short CD. A quick round on the outposts would keep the skill moving.
B6. A new type of mirror. Gaze mirror and you get 16/34 trading with a 20 minute CD. Fluff messages about hyping yourself up. And make it give a small trading buff, because why not?
C: Much more complex versions - new code altogether or revamping full systems
C1. Basically clone "play" and rename it "forecast". Create a new type of ledger or financial paper or market report. A "Trader Instrument" if you will. You buy one from the imp daily, or you have one from an MT event/fest shop that always shows the latest info, whatever. They come in different complexities like normal instruments, and have the same or reduced verbs. You then forecast [thing] on [instrument] and the fluff messaging stays mostly the same for difficulty, but it would be mostly generic pulsing text with the same rules as performance. The text would change, and the number of options would be greatly simplified. Scales => Jaron, ditty => trends, lullaby => commodities, polka => (market)health, minuet => fads, tarantella => marketing, fantasia => segmentation, sonata=> (market)research, concerto => speculation.
C2. XP pools for your shop. Anytime anyone buys something from your shop, they put experience into a pool. You can then use a shop verb to absorb some of that experience (up to ML, the rest stays). Similar to how you can ask financed shops about sales, but xp instead of coins.
PRIMEQ
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/24/2019 08:00 PM CDT
Some of these are good ideas and I encourage you to add them to the crowdsource document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14n1HjPX7h_sDBHA9wR5Cwg9R4cMY4hHHc7YJUwFssGs/edit#gid=877718729
I'm not in love with all of them, as some might make Trading just too easy -- like just sitting in the shop. For that one, maybe if instead you got more experience for selling something from a table, people might consider holding little events where they put out a very cheap table to earn exp.
The ones I like best:
- Using speculates -- though I don't know about awarding quite so much exp for them. Seems like it would be awfully easy to fill up for little cost. But a little bump might be nice.
- Appraising an item.
- Appraise focus -- maybe on certain skills only.
- Haggling in shops.
Given how easy it is to stockpile bundles and pouches with our caravan boxes, plus the exp from work orders, I personally am not that worried about learning Trading.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
I'm not in love with all of them, as some might make Trading just too easy -- like just sitting in the shop. For that one, maybe if instead you got more experience for selling something from a table, people might consider holding little events where they put out a very cheap table to earn exp.
The ones I like best:
- Using speculates -- though I don't know about awarding quite so much exp for them. Seems like it would be awfully easy to fill up for little cost. But a little bump might be nice.
- Appraising an item.
- Appraise focus -- maybe on certain skills only.
- Haggling in shops.
Given how easy it is to stockpile bundles and pouches with our caravan boxes, plus the exp from work orders, I personally am not that worried about learning Trading.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
LCAMP2
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/25/2019 07:07 PM CDT
It's been forever since I've played my trader, but I'll chime in on a couple of points.
<<B3. Giving trading XP a secondary pool like thievery. Traders and Empaths are often feast or famine. A secondary pool would help them utilize those 5-10 pouches people tend to stock up on before finding a trader.
For what it's worth, I don't think the stealing secondary pool is a thing anymore ever since they rewrote shop stealing about 10 years ago. They removed it from a lot of systems, so I doubt they'll be implementing it with anything anymore. That said, I think contract trading has a version of this to a degree, since a contract gradually pulses out xp for a while after completion.
As an aside, you can already store the xp from the pouches assuming you have enough money to bankroll them. Just pay out the person from your own funds, and then sell the pouch later once you need the xp. This is also pretty much the entire reason traders have the ability to split pouches via untie, since they can micromanage the chunks of xp they get and waste less from overflow.
<<A2. Appraising an item gives traders trading experience in addition to appraisal experience. And add a bucket of xp when you appraise yourself or someone else. You already see messages detailing a person's wealth, and you get all three currencies for everything they're wearing, but it doesn't teach like you just appraised everything at once.
A3. Similar to B5 below, appraise focus teaches trading. Maybe only when you app focus a ledger or tie it lore skills or have it work always.
The closest you're going to get to this I suspect is an extension of the appraisal focus system. Maybe something where a trader does a trader specific app focus (like how barbs have barb-only analyzes) that adds a small amount of trading experience instead of appraisal experience to trading or appraisal related things for a time once completed.
<<B2. Standing in the sales floor or backroom of your shop pulses trading in the same way as playing an instrument.
Something tells me that passive xp for just standing there isn't going to fly with the GMs. ;) Even with cyclic spells you have to enter a command to start it, and it stops teaching after about 5 minutes.
<<B3. Giving trading XP a secondary pool like thievery. Traders and Empaths are often feast or famine. A secondary pool would help them utilize those 5-10 pouches people tend to stock up on before finding a trader.
For what it's worth, I don't think the stealing secondary pool is a thing anymore ever since they rewrote shop stealing about 10 years ago. They removed it from a lot of systems, so I doubt they'll be implementing it with anything anymore. That said, I think contract trading has a version of this to a degree, since a contract gradually pulses out xp for a while after completion.
As an aside, you can already store the xp from the pouches assuming you have enough money to bankroll them. Just pay out the person from your own funds, and then sell the pouch later once you need the xp. This is also pretty much the entire reason traders have the ability to split pouches via untie, since they can micromanage the chunks of xp they get and waste less from overflow.
<<A2. Appraising an item gives traders trading experience in addition to appraisal experience. And add a bucket of xp when you appraise yourself or someone else. You already see messages detailing a person's wealth, and you get all three currencies for everything they're wearing, but it doesn't teach like you just appraised everything at once.
A3. Similar to B5 below, appraise focus teaches trading. Maybe only when you app focus a ledger or tie it lore skills or have it work always.
The closest you're going to get to this I suspect is an extension of the appraisal focus system. Maybe something where a trader does a trader specific app focus (like how barbs have barb-only analyzes) that adds a small amount of trading experience instead of appraisal experience to trading or appraisal related things for a time once completed.
<<B2. Standing in the sales floor or backroom of your shop pulses trading in the same way as playing an instrument.
Something tells me that passive xp for just standing there isn't going to fly with the GMs. ;) Even with cyclic spells you have to enter a command to start it, and it stops teaching after about 5 minutes.
SHIFT3
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/25/2019 07:46 PM CDT
> As an aside, you can already store the xp from the pouches assuming you have enough money to bankroll them. Just pay out the person from your own funds, and then sell the pouch later once you need the xp. This is also pretty much the entire reason traders have the ability to split pouches via untie, since they can micromanage the chunks of xp they get and waste less from overflow.
It's more difficult than it sounds unless you want to lose a lot of platinum to move your guild skill, which interestingly enough the only guild skill you can't keep moving while staying in combat. Someone will probably say bundles or pouches, but it takes about 400 -600 kills to lock trading with skins (2-3 full bundles), and you still have to leave combat to do it.
Considering my trader has a range of 0.15 - 0.5 kills per minute, depending on spawn and where I am in the ladder, that's a minimum of 200 minutes to lock a skill that takes 40-60 minutes to drain. No other guild skill requires hours of dedication to only 1-5 skills to learn appreciably. There needs to be a better option, especially considering that lore primes need more guild skill than any other guild in the game.
> Even with cyclic spells you have to enter a command to start it, and it stops teaching after about 5 minutes.
If that's the best solution, then do it. Create a cyclic that teaches trading rather or in addition to magic. It doesn't even have to do anything to still be more useful than most of our toolkit. I'd rather this be tied up somewhere else (I actually do like speculates and appraisal as options), but beggers can't be choosers.
PRIMEQ
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/25/2019 11:33 PM CDT
>>It's more difficult than it sounds unless you want to lose a lot of platinum to move your guild skill
You shouldn't be losing any plats at all in the process, as long as you are paying less than you'll receive for selling the pouches later. In fact, with even a little negotiating you should be able to turn at least a little profit. Yes, you will have to make an investment and will lose access to those plats until you are able to resell, but it's a very worthwhile goal to get to that point, and one that should not be too hard to achieve. Even a few hundred plats would be enough to start buying.
Personally I gain almost 100% of my Trading exp from selling the bundles and pouches of friends. I have so many that I regularly sell off dozens even without gaining the exp. Connect with some hunters who want to gain +10-60% on top of their hunting income -- most do! The bundles of higher level hunters will likely even lock you in 1 bundle.
The second best option is to do work orders while trying to get set up with a bundle/pouch situation. The third best option is just work orders.
It's true that not everyone is going to want to be social enough to set up these connections, or advertise on the gweth, etc. There should be more options, we agree there. I'm just saying, the bundle/pouch option is really great if you can swing it.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
You shouldn't be losing any plats at all in the process, as long as you are paying less than you'll receive for selling the pouches later. In fact, with even a little negotiating you should be able to turn at least a little profit. Yes, you will have to make an investment and will lose access to those plats until you are able to resell, but it's a very worthwhile goal to get to that point, and one that should not be too hard to achieve. Even a few hundred plats would be enough to start buying.
Personally I gain almost 100% of my Trading exp from selling the bundles and pouches of friends. I have so many that I regularly sell off dozens even without gaining the exp. Connect with some hunters who want to gain +10-60% on top of their hunting income -- most do! The bundles of higher level hunters will likely even lock you in 1 bundle.
The second best option is to do work orders while trying to get set up with a bundle/pouch situation. The third best option is just work orders.
It's true that not everyone is going to want to be social enough to set up these connections, or advertise on the gweth, etc. There should be more options, we agree there. I'm just saying, the bundle/pouch option is really great if you can swing it.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
SHIFT3
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/26/2019 08:03 AM CDT
> You shouldn't be losing any plats at all in the process, as long as you are paying less than you'll receive for selling the pouches later.
Why would someone do this? There are almost always a handful of traders immediately jumping on anyone who wants to sell pouches. The farmer almost always has 160% pouch value immediately. If you're offering 150% or even 160% appraisal value then you have to convince them that it's in their best interest to do business with you rather than the default.
The only people I've seen do this successfully are those who are fed by alts, friends, or are offering more than the 60% bonus. Before I started my trader, I was being offered up to 200% pouch value by some traders.
> bundles and pouches of friends
There it is. In an ideal world, there would always be more pouches available than traders needing experience, but unless you're being fed then you won't have much success.
> The bundles of higher level hunters will likely even lock you in 1 bundle
Trading: 615 76.95% clear (0/34)
How high do I need to go to get locked in one bundle?
> There should be more options, we agree there.
Absolutely. That's all I'm saying. I've come up with my own strategies for keeping trading moving (rarely locks unless doing caravans or the odd pouch glut), but I don't like them because they constrain my character's choices. What makes sandbox games great is the variety of options. We just need more for this skill.
PRIMEQ
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/26/2019 10:00 PM CDT
>>Why would someone do this? There are almost always a handful of traders immediately jumping on anyone who wants to sell pouches. The farmer almost always has 160% pouch value immediately. If you're offering 150% or even 160% appraisal value then you have to convince them that it's in their best interest to do business with you rather than the default.
I don't know what to tell you. My experience is that people are pretty flexible about the price and often happy just to have a Trader to sell for them. I've sold for lots of people, friends and strangers alike, and I don't have a +60% bonus yet. I sold for plenty of people when I was starting out and had a measly +20% or so. I let people know up front what my bonus is and how much I'd like to offer, which is usually the full appraisal + my bonus -- I literally ask the appraiser what he'd pay for it and then pay them that. I've never been refused or had a complaint, and I often still get a tip afterward.
Overall, my suggestion to you is to just be honest with what you can offer and see who you can find. The number who accept may surprise you. If you explain that you are looking to keep 10% for profit so that you can build up to buying more pouches, you might even still get some who are interested. My experience is that DR people are friendly and want to help.
Over time, try to find higher level hunters who can "feed" you regularly. Offer to visit them when it's convenient for them. Having someone reliable and honest is valuable, especially if they have just been saving up and then trying to find someone on the gweth.
Anyway, we still agree that more options would be nice. :)
>>How high do I need to go to get locked in one bundle?
Trading: 767 51.59% clear (0/34)
Trading: 767 51.59% nearly locked (33/34)
It's easier to lock from a high level bundle if you have less skill, but that's me doing a bundle from elder dillos or lava drakes (hard to tell, just got it from my vault). I used to ask one hunter friend to adjust his script so he'd stop his bundles around 170 skins, because I could lock from that many.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
I don't know what to tell you. My experience is that people are pretty flexible about the price and often happy just to have a Trader to sell for them. I've sold for lots of people, friends and strangers alike, and I don't have a +60% bonus yet. I sold for plenty of people when I was starting out and had a measly +20% or so. I let people know up front what my bonus is and how much I'd like to offer, which is usually the full appraisal + my bonus -- I literally ask the appraiser what he'd pay for it and then pay them that. I've never been refused or had a complaint, and I often still get a tip afterward.
Overall, my suggestion to you is to just be honest with what you can offer and see who you can find. The number who accept may surprise you. If you explain that you are looking to keep 10% for profit so that you can build up to buying more pouches, you might even still get some who are interested. My experience is that DR people are friendly and want to help.
Over time, try to find higher level hunters who can "feed" you regularly. Offer to visit them when it's convenient for them. Having someone reliable and honest is valuable, especially if they have just been saving up and then trying to find someone on the gweth.
Anyway, we still agree that more options would be nice. :)
>>How high do I need to go to get locked in one bundle?
Trading: 767 51.59% clear (0/34)
Trading: 767 51.59% nearly locked (33/34)
It's easier to lock from a high level bundle if you have less skill, but that's me doing a bundle from elder dillos or lava drakes (hard to tell, just got it from my vault). I used to ask one hunter friend to adjust his script so he'd stop his bundles around 170 skins, because I could lock from that many.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
NYRR
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/27/2019 06:26 AM CDT
>Why would someone do this? There are almost always a handful of traders immediately jumping on anyone who wants to sell pouches. The farmer almost always has 160% pouch value immediately. If you're offering 150% or even 160% appraisal value then you have to convince them that it's in their best interest to do business with you rather than the default.
I've never had anyone complain. I've had repeat business. And my bonus is only about 25% (w/out Finesse), so usually offer 20% over appraisal value right now. Still get tipped too.
LCAMP2
Re: Some New ways to train Trading
06/27/2019 03:02 PM CDT
To be honest, as long as you say up front what your bonus is people will be okay if it's not capped. I never was turned down for not having a capped bonus. That said, I also never understated it either. Most of the time the tips were more than good, since most people would tip at least 10%, and those who don't tip well didn't bring down the average tip enough to worry about.
The only hard part I found about bankrolling pouches was having the funds in the first place, which can take a lot of capital depending on who is selling their pouches. Hard here is a relative term too, since I'm sure there are quite a few traders sitting on 1000's of plats who wouldn't bat an eyelash at buying pouches.
The only hard part I found about bankrolling pouches was having the funds in the first place, which can take a lot of capital depending on who is selling their pouches. Hard here is a relative term too, since I'm sure there are quite a few traders sitting on 1000's of plats who wouldn't bat an eyelash at buying pouches.
