i have no complaints on the up-and-coming gems, other lore bonused type things traders are going to get in 3.0. That is all well and good and looks peachy.
However, the main focus for many traders is still caravan-trading to make money. Particularly this will be the route for young traders who won't have the skill to get in on some of the other money-making activities for some time.
A trader will be vulnerable to the up-and-coming bardic 75th circle ability of beguile tip. Where a bard will forcibly make a weaker character tip them. This renders the bard "open", but unlike stealing, has no preventative measure of guard accusation.
In the case of a thief, the trader has recourse to the town guards while in town, and the trader thugs while on the route with their caravan.
They will have no such defense from a bard utilizing this.
How does a guild whose combat abilities are confined to speculate coin and speculate defense defend their means of livilihood?
Lets get some trader coin-retaining abilities out there for 3.0.
i.e.
Speculate Greed
-noticing the presnece of ne'er-do-wells in the area, you tightly hold onto every coin in your possession until you are in a better neighborhood.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
GERSTEINJ2
DR-RAESH
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
05/11/2011 06:54 PM CDT
>>A trader will be vulnerable to the up-and-coming bardic 75th circle ability of beguile tip. Where a bard will forcibly make a weaker character tip them. This renders the bard "open", but unlike stealing, has no preventative measure of guard accusation.
Please keep the discussion of the new Bard abilities to the new folder in the Bard forums made specifically for them. If you have concerns, I will address them there.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Please keep the discussion of the new Bard abilities to the new folder in the Bard forums made specifically for them. If you have concerns, I will address them there.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
GERSTEINJ2
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
05/12/2011 06:53 AM CDT
my goal is to get trader abilities. not to put a kibosh on the bard ability. Its fine with me that bards are getting this. I'd like to see traders get something to counter it, or "charm" type of spells altogether. Is that aspect going to be addressed in the Trader folder or the bard folder?
In line with what Apu posted earlier, I really don't want Traders to be left out in the cold in the new magic system. Its great they are going to be more included in the lore systems, and kodius and team are doing outstanding work in putting it all together. But if Barbarians and Thieves are going to be included in "magic", I'd like Traders included too. Part of this is having defensive abilities for "charm" type of spells/ abilities, what-have-you. A good businessman would be "savvy" enough to know he's being bamboozled, etc. Call it trader business sense. Call it a finesse ability.
There's all sorts of things that could be included in trader savvy, or "inner magic", akin to how Thief Khri is going to work.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
In line with what Apu posted earlier, I really don't want Traders to be left out in the cold in the new magic system. Its great they are going to be more included in the lore systems, and kodius and team are doing outstanding work in putting it all together. But if Barbarians and Thieves are going to be included in "magic", I'd like Traders included too. Part of this is having defensive abilities for "charm" type of spells/ abilities, what-have-you. A good businessman would be "savvy" enough to know he's being bamboozled, etc. Call it trader business sense. Call it a finesse ability.
There's all sorts of things that could be included in trader savvy, or "inner magic", akin to how Thief Khri is going to work.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
HIATTR3
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 10:27 AM CDT
why shouldnt it be discussed here?
1) its a discussion on how it affects traders, and as such, i dont see why it shoudlnt be metioned and even lightly talked about by other traders... in the trader forum.
2) If i dont play a bard (which i dont) then i wont be reading the bard section and know about this 'threat' to my character.
3) In the Bard's section of the forum, they talk about what interests and benefits THEM, as a Bard.. not as another Guild. By trying to discuss its effects on another guild as the viewpoint of another Guild than the Topic's subject will just raise the hackles of the Bards; that being THEIR ability and a desire to not see it messed with. In the end you have an unbalanced and biased conversation/viewpoint.
that would be akin to giving thieves the ability to steal crates off a caravan but not allow it to be discussed in the traders forum, even though it obviously relates to Traders
i dont see that line as a major discussion of the ability itself, but as a discussion about the lack of protection for a trader to use the City accuse or the Trader accuse systems
1) its a discussion on how it affects traders, and as such, i dont see why it shoudlnt be metioned and even lightly talked about by other traders... in the trader forum.
2) If i dont play a bard (which i dont) then i wont be reading the bard section and know about this 'threat' to my character.
3) In the Bard's section of the forum, they talk about what interests and benefits THEM, as a Bard.. not as another Guild. By trying to discuss its effects on another guild as the viewpoint of another Guild than the Topic's subject will just raise the hackles of the Bards; that being THEIR ability and a desire to not see it messed with. In the end you have an unbalanced and biased conversation/viewpoint.
that would be akin to giving thieves the ability to steal crates off a caravan but not allow it to be discussed in the traders forum, even though it obviously relates to Traders
i dont see that line as a major discussion of the ability itself, but as a discussion about the lack of protection for a trader to use the City accuse or the Trader accuse systems
DR-RAESH
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 10:55 AM CDT
The reasons have not changed since my first post.
>>Please keep the discussion of the new Bard abilities to the new folder in the Bard forums made specifically for them. If you have concerns, I will address them there.
In addition, because this ability does not have any special interactions with traders. Not just traders have coins, not just traders can be stolen from, not just traders will need to have a way to deal with this ability. It is not, specifically, a trader issue any more than it is an empath issue, a warrior mage issue, or a necromancer issue.
It is a concern regarding a planned Bard ability. Discussion of Bard abilities should take place in the Bard folders, where the people most concerned will see it. That is a general rule, not one specific to this situation, because most GMs only read the folders directly associated with what they work on -- so if you want your feedback read by someone who can do something about it, it is wise to place it somewhere that they'll actually see it. In this case I happen to be one of the GMs who reads every folder, so by chance I have read the concerns here, and they are noted, and the conversation redirected.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>Please keep the discussion of the new Bard abilities to the new folder in the Bard forums made specifically for them. If you have concerns, I will address them there.
In addition, because this ability does not have any special interactions with traders. Not just traders have coins, not just traders can be stolen from, not just traders will need to have a way to deal with this ability. It is not, specifically, a trader issue any more than it is an empath issue, a warrior mage issue, or a necromancer issue.
It is a concern regarding a planned Bard ability. Discussion of Bard abilities should take place in the Bard folders, where the people most concerned will see it. That is a general rule, not one specific to this situation, because most GMs only read the folders directly associated with what they work on -- so if you want your feedback read by someone who can do something about it, it is wise to place it somewhere that they'll actually see it. In this case I happen to be one of the GMs who reads every folder, so by chance I have read the concerns here, and they are noted, and the conversation redirected.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
GERSTEINJ2
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 04:08 PM CDT
<<In addition, because this ability does not have any special interactions with traders. Not just traders have coins, not just traders can be stolen from, not just traders will need to have a way to deal with this ability.>>
Ahem. As the player of both a thief, and a trader for 15 years <started in 1996> I think I can speak to the issue that when it comes to Theft, Traders are the prefered target of choice. And no other guild is REQUIRED to carry around coins. A trader on the trade routes IS required to carry coin in order to get contracts at the outposts. Additionally, when it comes to the "thug" issue, which is the prefered way for traders on the routes to deal with traditional theft, ONLY traders <and thieves> have recourse to this option. So not being able to use this option when a Bard is "stealing" by means of a forced tip is definately something that is a TRADER issue.
Ahem. As the player of both a thief, and a trader for 15 years <started in 1996> I think I can speak to the issue that when it comes to Theft, Traders are the prefered target of choice. And no other guild is REQUIRED to carry around coins. A trader on the trade routes IS required to carry coin in order to get contracts at the outposts. Additionally, when it comes to the "thug" issue, which is the prefered way for traders on the routes to deal with traditional theft, ONLY traders <and thieves> have recourse to this option. So not being able to use this option when a Bard is "stealing" by means of a forced tip is definately something that is a TRADER issue.
YANSHADEY
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 04:25 PM CDT
Trader issue != Trader only issue. Bard forums is where they would like the discussion.
HIATTR3
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 07:31 PM CDT
That is easily solveable....
We can buy bills from the monger; why not have the clerks and ministers issue similar bills that you present instead of 'paying' them. they deduct and add coin to it as needed. that way you are less of a target. you run your day trading, turn in your marker and get the coin from the clerk. i would place it at around 20th level for ability to use so the younger traders still get the idea of protecting their coins as they do now.
You would still have to run to the teller after trading in your marker, so theres still a threat of being a target, just not a constant one.
We can buy bills from the monger; why not have the clerks and ministers issue similar bills that you present instead of 'paying' them. they deduct and add coin to it as needed. that way you are less of a target. you run your day trading, turn in your marker and get the coin from the clerk. i would place it at around 20th level for ability to use so the younger traders still get the idea of protecting their coins as they do now.
You would still have to run to the teller after trading in your marker, so theres still a threat of being a target, just not a constant one.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 07:53 PM CDT
>We can buy bills from the monger; why not have the clerks and ministers issue similar bills that you present instead of 'paying' them. they deduct and add coin to it as needed.
Yes. A proper response is 'remove the guild from any possible chance of theft'.
This would be like giving Paladins an instant stun/reveal on anyone who hides or uses invis in thier room.
Part of the risk of trading is supposed to be theft. There are already a ton of ways to prevent, bypass, and in general not really have to worry about it.
Yes. A proper response is 'remove the guild from any possible chance of theft'.
This would be like giving Paladins an instant stun/reveal on anyone who hides or uses invis in thier room.
Part of the risk of trading is supposed to be theft. There are already a ton of ways to prevent, bypass, and in general not really have to worry about it.
HIATTR3
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 08:12 PM CDT
i disagree. it doesnt remove us from 'any possible chance of theft'. it gives us a little more security.
we sell at the tents and shops and can use bills from the mongers and there arent a lot of mobs protesting their use.
you can still steal from us when we sell gems and those who dont use bills in the market tent and such.
we still carry coin to pay debts, to buy from fests...
just stop making us the prefered target.
from your statement you seem to think that a traders life should be filled with commoners digging into his pockets.
I disagree and dont think that that is what a traders life should be.
you have the beggar and the town shops.. you dont NEED more
:)
we sell at the tents and shops and can use bills from the mongers and there arent a lot of mobs protesting their use.
you can still steal from us when we sell gems and those who dont use bills in the market tent and such.
we still carry coin to pay debts, to buy from fests...
just stop making us the prefered target.
from your statement you seem to think that a traders life should be filled with commoners digging into his pockets.
I disagree and dont think that that is what a traders life should be.
you have the beggar and the town shops.. you dont NEED more
:)
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/03/2011 11:17 PM CDT
>from your statement you seem to think that a traders life should be filled with commoners digging into his pockets.
>I disagree and dont think that that is what a traders life should be.
1: I do not play a thief who has ever stolen from another player. While I find it to be perfectly fine RP, I as a player do not want to steal coins from someone and potentially ruin thier fun time, as most of the time people are 'ripe pickings' they are headed for a fest, or similar buying event. And player stealing doesn't teach worth the time it takes.
1a: I was not replying to you 'as a thief'. I can see why you would think that, since the topic is theft, but it's still a little insulting to say that the only reason I would have any interest is because I want to pilfer pockets.
2: Thieves. Not commoners. Boards are OOC, and that is silly regardless.
3: I don't really care about traders, in so much as I can find one occasionally to sell gem pouches, since there is no reasonable non-trader alternative.
4: You suggested installing a silly, skill-less, system to bypass a lot of mechanics, interaction, and skill checks. I pointed out that you were doing such.
5: Again, this is like a Paladin asking that he get an instant stun and reveal, always active, whenever someone hides or uses invis in his room. It's silly.
6: It does, in fact, remove you from 'all possible chance of theft' when you are running the roads. That was your entire point, to introduce a 'theft proof' system.
7: Honestly, aside from running roads, does anyone even attempt to steal from other chars? Unless you're using a front end with triggers, or camping at choke points such as ferries, the general player is going to blow past far too fast for someone to type 'stalk X'.
>I disagree and dont think that that is what a traders life should be.
1: I do not play a thief who has ever stolen from another player. While I find it to be perfectly fine RP, I as a player do not want to steal coins from someone and potentially ruin thier fun time, as most of the time people are 'ripe pickings' they are headed for a fest, or similar buying event. And player stealing doesn't teach worth the time it takes.
1a: I was not replying to you 'as a thief'. I can see why you would think that, since the topic is theft, but it's still a little insulting to say that the only reason I would have any interest is because I want to pilfer pockets.
2: Thieves. Not commoners. Boards are OOC, and that is silly regardless.
3: I don't really care about traders, in so much as I can find one occasionally to sell gem pouches, since there is no reasonable non-trader alternative.
4: You suggested installing a silly, skill-less, system to bypass a lot of mechanics, interaction, and skill checks. I pointed out that you were doing such.
5: Again, this is like a Paladin asking that he get an instant stun and reveal, always active, whenever someone hides or uses invis in his room. It's silly.
6: It does, in fact, remove you from 'all possible chance of theft' when you are running the roads. That was your entire point, to introduce a 'theft proof' system.
7: Honestly, aside from running roads, does anyone even attempt to steal from other chars? Unless you're using a front end with triggers, or camping at choke points such as ferries, the general player is going to blow past far too fast for someone to type 'stalk X'.
MOD-ZAIRYCHE
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/04/2011 11:31 AM CDT
A GM has already said where this thread would be best. Let's go ahead and move the original issue over there. Nothing is going to be further accomplished here, no matter how much you debate it. Thanks.
Zairyche
DragonRealms Board Monitor
If you have questions or comments, please email me at (Mod-Zairyche@play.net) or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at (DR-
Sidatura@play.net) or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl (DR-
Annwyl@play.net).
Zairyche
DragonRealms Board Monitor
If you have questions or comments, please email me at (Mod-Zairyche@play.net) or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at (DR-
Sidatura@play.net) or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl (DR-
Annwyl@play.net).
SCHULTZS3
Re: lack of defense and 3.0
06/05/2011 02:28 AM CDT
>3: I don't really care about traders, in so much as I can find one occasionally to sell gem pouches, since there is no reasonable non-trader alternative.
6 fanciable gem shops. 2 in Therengia, 2 in Illithi, 1 in Zoluren, and 1 in Qi.
Not having Traders around is like not having Empaths around.
Naniaki
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
6 fanciable gem shops. 2 in Therengia, 2 in Illithi, 1 in Zoluren, and 1 in Qi.
Not having Traders around is like not having Empaths around.
Naniaki
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
