traders, the last independent guild of elanthia.

empaths may hunt, barbarians may dance, thieves can focus, and bards get to use lore in combat. (i'm sure i could come up with something for the standard magic using guilds)

i always wonder who the game-lore-master is that approves/disapproves of guild changes.

i remember no other guild fundamental so set in stone like the empath guild/no combat that i have to wonder who actually makes these decisions and whether or not they just hate traders so much that they just refuse to let the guild evolve.

Too bad they spent time deving Trader owned shops instead of Trader combat abilities?

I would just sit tight and see what comes next.

~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>>Too bad they spent time deving Trader owned shops instead of Trader combat abilities?

>>I would just sit tight and see what comes next.

Trader shops are all sorts of awesome. POCs are awesome too even if I don't have one yet. But so is Speculate Defense. And I'd be willing to bet that the amount of coding time that went into Spec Defense is only a TINY fraction of what went into developing Shops or POCs.

As for sitting tight and seeing what comes next - we were just told that nothing was coming next, so that's why all of a sudden people are up in arms and asking for clarification

Apu

>As for sitting tight and seeing what comes next - we were just told that nothing was coming next, so that's why all of a sudden people are up in arms and asking for clarification

I think it is a matter of perception.

Everyone is getting up in arms over Armifer's post, but all he said was his idea was shot down and other than that he has no idea what is in the works for Traders and the upcomming changes. I see that as a good sign since Armifer took time to put together a proposal. I wonder who else might be working on one?

I say sit tight and see what comes next because Traders have been getting love over the last year, and I don't expect it to stop out of nowhere.

~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>>You were not told "no Trader development is coming." You were told that I, personally, am unaware of any plans that exist for Trader integration into the Magic skillset.

I thought it would be clear to anyone who has been following all of the various threads, that the second sentence was what I was referring to. I don't mean to put words in your mouth or twist your meaning, I just thought it was clear what was I referring to.

Perhaps it would be more accurate if I change that to "we were told that no Trader development is coming imminently in this particular area that we are discussing at the moment"?

Apu

>Also, what if they've been planning to make a proposal, but they could use more help coming up with ideas? Where does sitting tight get you then?

Farther than multiple, unfounded complaints.


~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>I have a policy of no longer discussing what project I'm working on unless I have it close to release.

This is a disappointing policy, especially since other GMs have been pretty open about their intentions for other guilds.

---

>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.

<<In the 6+ years I've been working on various projects, I have had 1 player send me an e-mail idea that wasn't 'Trader Contest' related.>>

there's a reason for that, player-side. I used to send a number of very well-thought-out proposals to the thief-GM-at-the-time in regard to lockpick crafting,and other types of systems etc, etc, That GM later left staff, and was nowhere to be found. And when I asked the GM that followed him on staff about it, he couldn't find it, never heard about it, etc. So, I started submitting ideas on the board where, even if the forums aren't "searchable" very easily, at least the idea will be recorded for posterity. Because, as you say, GMs come and go. Bet you can't find the one i sent regarding thief-trader smuggling either.

As far as traders go, I had a number of combat-related ideas shot down by various GMs over the years, as they never seemed to want traders to be anything other than "mules" - <the idea of making shops at 30th circle highly indicates this idea- no "conspiracy" theory is needed to see that, its quite obvious> , <i used to attend the trader "meetings" and so had direct feedback- but its pretty much indicated.

I still think they could have some nice combat-related things. AND some sort of participation in the magic system as well. Heck, if BARBARIAN abilities will be worked into the "MAGIC" system, there is no reason that traders should be left out in the cold.

---

You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath

>>It may be disappointing from a data perspective, but it's certainly a good one if you want to avoid talking about projects that may never reach conclusion.

Specific projects I can understand, given history. Do you really think it is too much to tell traders where they are going to stand in magic? Are we going to even get anything that uses the magic skill set? If so, is it a backburner or higher priorty thing?

As of right now all we can read into magic stuff is that traders are on the outs and screwed again. And if we are not included in the magic system, how are we included in the enchanting system as was stated?

<<As of right now all we can read into magic stuff is that traders are on the outs and screwed again.

Key phrase bolded. That's not what anyone is actually saying.

-Evran

"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran

>>I fail to see what you expected from magic 3.0. A conversion of other guilds is all that is taking place. Traders are the least magic-y of the NMUs. Speculates are joke that shouldn't be converted to anything.

We want to be told that we are going to be included. Not that when magic 3.0 comes out there will be a full system out for us. We don't want to be the only guild left out of a whole skillset, or a skill(enchanting) in a set that is our primary.

And speculates overall may be a joke(though not defense), but some have promise. For what you are saying, there are alot of spells that are jokes. Should they just be scraped and not converted? Speculate coin and defense are the two we have that are ripe for conversion. I don't think it is asking alot if those two were converted over with magic 3.0 even if it is just a stop gap measure.....assuming it doesn't take too much time from fixing trading.

>>I like how half the non-Traders posting are saying "of course you're getting new stuff, just sit tight, why would you just assume you're being left out", while the other half are saying "of course you're being left out, it's only a conversion of new abilities so why would you be included".

Maybe none of your current abilities need converting.

NEW ones will be designed with the current standard in mind.

>>And then they all wonder why we have the audacity to ask, since obviously it is all so clear what is going on...

Maybe it is the "OMG WE ARE GETTING SCREWED LIKE ALLWAYS!!!11" posts that are causing the backlash. You guys had a pretty good following with the first two threads on the subject.

~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>Who is complaining about shops

It's besides the point, but I'll play along.

Location in Therengia
Level of Traders allowed to use them
Lack of more shops

My point was, with the new Trader systems released recently, QQing over a lack of dev seems really unfair. Yes, there is a lot of QQ and bitterness in this thread (and others) and no I will not point it out for you post by post.

>Will they? Where was that stated? How do you know this?

I said maybe, I don't know as far as existing abilities go. However, I think it is safe to assume that they aren't sure yet and when they are you will get a post like every other guild has or will.

I know the new ones will operate under new mechanics because common sense dictates that any new development will follow the new standard in development (until a new one comes along).

TL;DR
Relax and have faith in the GM's.

~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

<<I fail to see what you expected from magic 3.0. A conversion of other guilds is all that is taking place. Traders are the least magic-y of the NMUs.

Personally I just like my DR to be organized and felt that including all guilds into magic 3.0 seemed to be the best way to do that, especially given how Development is organized by system now.

Nikpack

<<My point was, with the new Trader systems released recently, QQing over a lack of dev seems really unfair. Yes, there is a lot of QQ and bitterness in this thread (and others) and no I will not point it out for you post by post.

I don't think Apu is crying at all. From my perspective he seems to be voicing concern and interest in a guild that he's invested years of his life in. If DR history has shown us anything, it's that AFTER the new system has been rolled out, is NOT the time to express an interest or offer ideas.

As for unfair and bitter, I don't really think that's the case. Passionate I think would be a better word. As players, what else can we give to GMs (who are kind enough to donate their time) aside from our time and honest opinion, or ideas about current development? To me, that's the greatest gift a player can give to them. It may not always be what they are hoping or wanting to hear, but at least they know we cared enough about them and what they are doing to take the time to formulate some type of response.

As for development... yes.. Traders have POC's and Shops, but that doesn't mean those two things should eliminate all other aspects of development that Traders need, in order to reach a more equitable level in relation to all the other guilds.

Do we need magic, I'd say yes. Maybe not fireball slinging magic, but at least a way to focus items, and perhaps something to aid us in combat. Nikpack had some great ideas I thought concerning magic as well.

I know that a lot of the current development is probably past the gathering ideas phase, but for those areas where input may still be an option, a nudge in the right direction from a GM would surely be welcomed.

-Zabadoo
_____________________________
A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him -- David Brinkley

>Who is complaining about shops or POCs? Those systems are great.

Neither are generally available, I think that's a fair complaint.

But mainly, I think this is just a bizarre thread. Yes there's negativity here, but I think it's warranted. It was just revealed that there was trader dev planned, but it was shot down and instead we aren't getting told anything that's even potentially a possibility instead. And while shops and POCs are nice, as gonif points out, traders have been neglected as a guild since the beginning of the game.

If you haven't seriously played a trader character, I don't think you get to tell traders that everything is peachy.

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>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.

>>I honestly feel bad for the GM's who built these systems only to receive a bunch of complaints a few months later.

>Who is complaining about shops or POCs? Those systems are great.


thoes systems ARE great......this thread wasent created to complain about existing systems that are quite awesome for the scope of their purpose.

read back to the first and third reply for what this topic was about originally.

>>Traders systems are some of the most convoluted and complex in the game.<<

Psst, if you wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind learning what the formula is for the Trader bonus for selling gems and skins. I'll be figuring it out sooner or later, but it would save me some fewer headaches, headbangings, and less crying to friends on AIM if you told me.

Naniaki


>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>this thread wasent created to complain about existing systems that are quite awesome for the scope of their purpose.

>read back to the first and third reply for what this topic was about originally.

So you want me to read the reply's and not your OP to get the point of the thread? OK.

The first reply is stating that Traders would be better off if they had a new GM team.

The third reply was Conspiracy theories won't get anyone anywhere.

~Sulakhan

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"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

<<I am not amused by fellow Traders who presume that there is a conspiracy to keep Traders down out of the magic set, since....we've never been in the magic set, unless it was before I started playing over 8 years ago.>>

which was right around the time of the first "rewrite" of magic 2.0. That particular one left thieves, traders, and to a very lower extent, barbarians <because they don't like to use magic anyway> "out in the cold" in regards to magic.

No, thieves and traders could never "prepare/cast". However, both could, and did rub runestones to "prepare" spells that way. <ye olde example - shapeshifter casting Lightning bolt on a well known thief back in the day with a wand.> Now, thieves are getting an "in" back into the magic system with 3.0. And - so are barbarians - using their own "guilded" abilities. <khri/roar&dance> respectively. The major complaint in this is ... why traders are still "left in the cold" with this.

as for playing a trader, i put in many years on a trader <up thru 80s in circle in prime - in fact, a trader is the very first guild i rolled up in>, but like the other poster stated - there really isn't much more to do as you progress in trading skill. Bigger contracts, yes. But any of my similar circled combat characters <not including the empath as I really haven't trained her combats much- my tf empath though could make coin with the avenger back when i played there though, and if i still did could probably make decent coin in constructs> can make more money hunting in the same time period. And - other guilds can leave the game if something comes up in RL that I have to attend to. Traders are much more time-intensive and if you have to attend to reality, the contracts expire, the caravans die, and you get bad mojo from the guild for starvin' 'em. :-(.

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You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath