My newest noob trader is finally able to sell gem pouches with 58 ranks in trading. The difference in experience between selling gem pouches and all other forms of trading experience is just insane. 1-2 pouches and I'm at mind locked. All other forms of trading experience need a significant uptweak, especially on the low end. Pouch selling probably teaches too well, but I can't advocate a downtweak while everything else is so broken. Is it really so hard to increase trading experience that this issue needs to persist for years?
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
JMF90
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
09/28/2010 12:40 PM CDT
Trading experience on the high end is pretty brutal too (although I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near as bad as it is for the brand new traders). You could probably slap a blanket times 2 modifier on contract trading experience for all ranks/levels without it even being overpowered at all (may not even be enough at the low levels though). Even with double experience, I dunno if that would be enough to actually entice me to go trade contracts. I'd rather just spend 99% of my time with trading at clear
Apu
Apu
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
09/28/2010 12:45 PM CDT
Double post/fake edit:
Something I forgot to mention: the whole thing where new Traders learn trading faster by listening to classes than by actually going out and trading - that's true for high level Traders too. I can learn faster by listening to someone 50 levels below me than I can by actually going out and trading
Pretty much the only reason to trade contracts is for the money (which is pretty terrible compared to what an equal level combat class would make from hunting - but that's fine with me since it's so easily scriptable and risk-free)
Apu
Something I forgot to mention: the whole thing where new Traders learn trading faster by listening to classes than by actually going out and trading - that's true for high level Traders too. I can learn faster by listening to someone 50 levels below me than I can by actually going out and trading
Pretty much the only reason to trade contracts is for the money (which is pretty terrible compared to what an equal level combat class would make from hunting - but that's fine with me since it's so easily scriptable and risk-free)
Apu
ASDF123
Re: Trading experience
09/28/2010 02:35 PM CDT
personally, i learn trading faster (much faster) by trading at the highest levels than i do listening to a class
its totally about how efficient you are and how comprehensive your trading route is (that is for older traders)
its totally about how efficient you are and how comprehensive your trading route is (that is for older traders)
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
09/28/2010 04:38 PM CDT
>>its totally about how efficient you are and how comprehensive your trading route is (that is for older traders)
True, I guess I never did try interprov contracts yet since I've been back. It hasn't really been a high priority for me, I'd kind of rather just not ever circle than waste my gaming time on trading any type of contracts since it's boring as hell
I do learn pretty well though from listening to trading classes, so I doubt I could learn MUCH faster from doing IPs + locals together
Apu
True, I guess I never did try interprov contracts yet since I've been back. It hasn't really been a high priority for me, I'd kind of rather just not ever circle than waste my gaming time on trading any type of contracts since it's boring as hell
I do learn pretty well though from listening to trading classes, so I doubt I could learn MUCH faster from doing IPs + locals together
Apu
JMF90
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 10:54 AM CDT
>personally, i learn trading faster (much faster) by trading at the highest levels than i do listening to a class
>its totally about how efficient you are and how comprehensive your trading route is (that is for older traders)
Perhaps you should be more specific. My trading script was absolutely as efficient as possible and I still barely learned.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
>its totally about how efficient you are and how comprehensive your trading route is (that is for older traders)
Perhaps you should be more specific. My trading script was absolutely as efficient as possible and I still barely learned.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 11:08 AM CDT
>>Perhaps you should be more specific. My trading script was absolutely as efficient as possible and I still barely learned.
He was only saying that you can learn well at high levels if your script is good enough. There's nothing you can do as a new Trader to learn worth a damn from contracts. GMs have addressed that they're well aware of the issue, but I have no idea how high it is on the priority list to fix
Apu
He was only saying that you can learn well at high levels if your script is good enough. There's nothing you can do as a new Trader to learn worth a damn from contracts. GMs have addressed that they're well aware of the issue, but I have no idea how high it is on the priority list to fix
Apu
JMF90
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 11:16 AM CDT
>He was only saying that you can learn well at high levels if your script is good enough. There's nothing you can do as a new Trader to learn worth a damn from contracts. GMs have addressed that they're well aware of the issue, but I have no idea how high it is on the priority list to fix
I noticed that experience was pretty bad for my 134th circle trader as well, especially noticeable after the exp changes.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
I noticed that experience was pretty bad for my 134th circle trader as well, especially noticeable after the exp changes.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
ASDF123
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 11:51 AM CDT
do you do intra prov crossing, interprov, commodities, financing gem shops, and steal/pawn all in the same run at the same time?
takes me about an hour max to lock and it stays there the entire time.
takes me about an hour max to lock and it stays there the entire time.
JMF90
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 04:27 PM CDT
In testing I did, pawning items was basically a complete waste of time in terms of exp. I mean, if you're stealing anyway, you might as well, but I wouldn't steal just to gain trading from pawning. I find that profits are lower with interprov trading when compared to just doing normal contracts. Commodities can give a bit of a boost, but only the expensive commodities teach well, regardless of the profit on the transaction. Financing gem shops isn't viable in TF. And for all that effort you go through, it's still faster and easier to just sell a few gem pouches. Takes a few minutes to find someone that needs them sold vs an hour of hardcore work.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 06:45 PM CDT
>>Pouch selling probably teaches too well
It doesn't when you consider the amount of time that goes into a full pouch these days. 500 gems is a lot - It's equivalent to a bit more than 7 old pouches. The income stream of a full pouch has slowed down significantly.
>>Is it really so hard to increase trading experience that this issue needs to persist for years?
Yes. Looking into old trader code is a journey into the heard of madness itself. Contracts and commodities are on the chopping block after I finish up with the experience stuff, and they'll be in a lot better shape then.
But with all of the other big pieces moving around right now, I'm loathe to risk my very sanity to tweak experience. Doing it quickly would mean that I don't spend the time understanding the system itself, which is a bad idea.
It'll get fixed, but it's not my biggest project on the books right now. It WILL get fixed, though.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
It doesn't when you consider the amount of time that goes into a full pouch these days. 500 gems is a lot - It's equivalent to a bit more than 7 old pouches. The income stream of a full pouch has slowed down significantly.
>>Is it really so hard to increase trading experience that this issue needs to persist for years?
Yes. Looking into old trader code is a journey into the heard of madness itself. Contracts and commodities are on the chopping block after I finish up with the experience stuff, and they'll be in a lot better shape then.
But with all of the other big pieces moving around right now, I'm loathe to risk my very sanity to tweak experience. Doing it quickly would mean that I don't spend the time understanding the system itself, which is a bad idea.
It'll get fixed, but it's not my biggest project on the books right now. It WILL get fixed, though.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
ENOTS
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 06:47 PM CDT
Poor Socharis! Us traders can be deadly, can't we? ;)
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
SHADOW7988
Re: Trading experience
09/29/2010 07:23 PM CDT
The problem with traders isn't their deathly stare, no I think that is Barbarians, nor their keen eye a ranger (wild or urban), sharp tongue (someone foul, or magical), perhaps instead it is their wit, charm, and ability to negotiate?
Or perhaps, borrowing from elsewhere, the world will never know?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Or perhaps, borrowing from elsewhere, the world will never know?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
ASDF123
Re: Trading experience
09/30/2010 04:43 PM CDT
>>I find that profits are lower with interprov trading when compared to just doing normal contracts
lol, i found just interprov to be twice as profitable as just crossing. Do you swim both rivers? do you climb the undergondola? i guess not......
and you dont just do interprov, you do them both (intra and inter at the same time)
lol, i found just interprov to be twice as profitable as just crossing. Do you swim both rivers? do you climb the undergondola? i guess not......
and you dont just do interprov, you do them both (intra and inter at the same time)
GRANTJ47
Re: Trading experience
09/30/2010 05:58 PM CDT
The difference between what you two are seeing on terms of money may have to do with number of contracts. I believe it was studied at one time and the number of contracts run in a prov(or interprov) greatly affects how good of contracts you get. It used to be somewhat complained about because it made it hard for a trader to switch location in mid-life.
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
09/30/2010 06:21 PM CDT
Actually I think maybe the biggest difference here is peoples' perceptions of "learning quickly". Coper says "experience was pretty bad". Tirsten says "an hour to mindlock". Those statements are pretty much equivalent if you ask me. I don't know any other skill in this game that takes anywhere near an hour to hit mindlock (could definitely be some, but I haven't experienced any yet). I can get mindlocked faster than that by listening to Tirsten teach trading. MUCH faster
Apu
Apu
SCHULTZS3
Re: Trading experience
09/30/2010 08:18 PM CDT
Tirsten is also 150th and god knows what his Int/Wis and Trading ranks are.
An hour to mindlock at certainly 1000+ ranks doesn't sound TOO bad, when it takes me probably 30 minutes to mindlock primary skills no matter what they are on my 2 60s (Empath and Trader), whether it be some lore skills in the 100s, or my primaries (Empathy and Trading) in the 300s. It regularly took me about 80-120 minutes to lock Trading by listening to teachers in the 40-150 circle range, as timed by a script I had that checked Trading every 10 minutes. I was surprised more by how little difference a huge range of teachers made, when I could have a friend's 37th Trader teach me, it took about 120 minutes. Having Tirsten teach only shaved it down to about 80 minutes. Mostly I aimed for teachers in the 80 circle range, that seemed a good compromise.
As long as pools are getting more than they linearly drain, the problem is MOSTLY one of perception as you ARE draining as fast as you can.
Naniaki
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
An hour to mindlock at certainly 1000+ ranks doesn't sound TOO bad, when it takes me probably 30 minutes to mindlock primary skills no matter what they are on my 2 60s (Empath and Trader), whether it be some lore skills in the 100s, or my primaries (Empathy and Trading) in the 300s. It regularly took me about 80-120 minutes to lock Trading by listening to teachers in the 40-150 circle range, as timed by a script I had that checked Trading every 10 minutes. I was surprised more by how little difference a huge range of teachers made, when I could have a friend's 37th Trader teach me, it took about 120 minutes. Having Tirsten teach only shaved it down to about 80 minutes. Mostly I aimed for teachers in the 80 circle range, that seemed a good compromise.
As long as pools are getting more than they linearly drain, the problem is MOSTLY one of perception as you ARE draining as fast as you can.
Naniaki
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
JMF90
Re: Trading experience
09/30/2010 11:52 PM CDT
>An hour to mindlock at certainly 1000+ ranks doesn't sound TOO bad, when it takes me probably 30 minutes to mindlock primary skills no matter what they are on my 2 60s (Empath and Trader), whether it be some lore skills in the 100s, or my primaries (Empathy and Trading) in the 300s.
No. No no no.
I can lock PM in about 15 minutes with 1725 ranks. I can lock any combat skill with ease in 10 minutes or less, and most of these are around 1000 ranks. Trading exp is stupid, but especially so on the low end.
When you consider the fact that actually hunting pays better and teaches better in a variety of skills, you start to wonder why contract trading even exists.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
No. No no no.
I can lock PM in about 15 minutes with 1725 ranks. I can lock any combat skill with ease in 10 minutes or less, and most of these are around 1000 ranks. Trading exp is stupid, but especially so on the low end.
When you consider the fact that actually hunting pays better and teaches better in a variety of skills, you start to wonder why contract trading even exists.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
ASDF123
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 10:58 AM CDT
>>When you consider the fact that actually hunting pays better and teaches better in a variety of skills, you start to wonder why contract trading even exists.
this is the true issue. contract trading should pay out quite a bit better as hunting, especially considering the skill training differences.
It is the 'merchant' guild after all.
Money? where is the money we were promised?
This is from the guild join messages:
Its kinda ironic, and quite a bit more stupid, that 'what we do best' almost all other guilds do better.
this is the true issue. contract trading should pay out quite a bit better as hunting, especially considering the skill training differences.
It is the 'merchant' guild after all.
Money? where is the money we were promised?
This is from the guild join messages:
| What we traders do best, pure and simple, is make money. The glint of a fistful of coins is what makes our blood flow. Make no mistake, we're after wealth and power. If you're thinking more lofty and noble thoughts, you might be more suited to housekeeping," he adds with a smirk. |
Its kinda ironic, and quite a bit more stupid, that 'what we do best' almost all other guilds do better.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 11:38 AM CDT
I have no idea how contract trading works but for what it's worth I believe Traders can make some serious coin by selling items on the tables and in the plaza. No other guild can set up shop like that and it looks like a pretty cool ability from my perspective.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 11:58 AM CDT
I'll reiterate:
Contracts reward you guys poorly, it's a known issue. I won't be fixing them in the next few weeks but it's not a forgotten issue.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Contracts reward you guys poorly, it's a known issue. I won't be fixing them in the next few weeks but it's not a forgotten issue.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 12:34 PM CDT
>>I have no idea how contract trading works but for what it's worth I believe Traders can make some serious coin by selling items on the tables and in the plaza. No other guild can set up shop like that and it looks like a pretty cool ability from my perspective.
I totally agree with the second sentence. It's a very unique way to make money in this game (possibly the only legal way to make significant amounts of money while offline or AFK). They're definitely a very fun and cool ability, assuming you can actually manage to get one (which is WAY easier said than done, but I'm not getting into that again)
But in terms of how much money you really make from shops, I'm a little skeptical. I've made about 5k plat since my shop opened a month or 2 ago, which does sound like alot. But how much of that is actual profit compared to what I originally paid for the items? And how much of that profit is extra over the profit I could've gotten by spamming posts on DRSales? I don't really know the answer on those questions. I'm not sure that Traders with their own shops are really making that much additional money over what you could make selling on DRSales - although shops are obviously alot more IC and just more fun
One big problem with shops right now, is that any crafted items you want to sell have to come from a supplier of another class since Traders can't make anything worthwhile, no matter how much mech lore skill we get. I think when you'll really see shops start to shine is when the mech lore split comes out and it will be possible to sell your own crafted items as well as stuff from suppliers.
Apu
I totally agree with the second sentence. It's a very unique way to make money in this game (possibly the only legal way to make significant amounts of money while offline or AFK). They're definitely a very fun and cool ability, assuming you can actually manage to get one (which is WAY easier said than done, but I'm not getting into that again)
But in terms of how much money you really make from shops, I'm a little skeptical. I've made about 5k plat since my shop opened a month or 2 ago, which does sound like alot. But how much of that is actual profit compared to what I originally paid for the items? And how much of that profit is extra over the profit I could've gotten by spamming posts on DRSales? I don't really know the answer on those questions. I'm not sure that Traders with their own shops are really making that much additional money over what you could make selling on DRSales - although shops are obviously alot more IC and just more fun
One big problem with shops right now, is that any crafted items you want to sell have to come from a supplier of another class since Traders can't make anything worthwhile, no matter how much mech lore skill we get. I think when you'll really see shops start to shine is when the mech lore split comes out and it will be possible to sell your own crafted items as well as stuff from suppliers.
Apu
REASONMJ
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 12:45 PM CDT
>>I won't be fixing them in the next few weeks but it's not a forgotten issue.
On this subject, do you already have a solid plan in place for what you want to do with the contracts and/or commods rewrite/rework/whatever (if so can you share them!), or would it be potentially useful for players to post their own ideas for how to redo contracts? Because I could totally post a ton of ideas if there was a chance it could be useful
Apu
On this subject, do you already have a solid plan in place for what you want to do with the contracts and/or commods rewrite/rework/whatever (if so can you share them!), or would it be potentially useful for players to post their own ideas for how to redo contracts? Because I could totally post a ton of ideas if there was a chance it could be useful
Apu
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 01:30 PM CDT
>>do you already have a solid plan in place for what you want to do with the contracts and/or commods rewrite/rework/whatever
I have a bunch of ideas but I'm not quite ready to engage with them yet. I'd rather we didn't go in to 'brainstorming mode' just yet, because I don't have the spare focus to devote to the conversation.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
I have a bunch of ideas but I'm not quite ready to engage with them yet. I'd rather we didn't go in to 'brainstorming mode' just yet, because I don't have the spare focus to devote to the conversation.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
JMF90
Re: Trading experience
10/01/2010 07:25 PM CDT
>Contracts reward you guys poorly, it's a known issue. I won't be fixing them in the next few weeks but it's not a forgotten issue.
Appreciate it.
>One big problem with shops right now, is that any crafted items you want to sell have to come from a supplier of another class since Traders can't make anything worthwhile, no matter how much mech lore skill we get. I think when you'll really see shops start to shine is when the mech lore split comes out and it will be possible to sell your own crafted items as well as stuff from suppliers.
Yeah, it'll definitely be interesting when the creation rewrite is finished.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Appreciate it.
>One big problem with shops right now, is that any crafted items you want to sell have to come from a supplier of another class since Traders can't make anything worthwhile, no matter how much mech lore skill we get. I think when you'll really see shops start to shine is when the mech lore split comes out and it will be possible to sell your own crafted items as well as stuff from suppliers.
Yeah, it'll definitely be interesting when the creation rewrite is finished.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
ASDF123
