>study ledg
You flip back and forth through the pages of your ledger. After a moments consideration you are certain that you have made 1158231 kronars, 926585 lirums, or 835779 dokoras delivering contracted goods.
After a bit more study you are certain that you have lost 38442 kronars, 30754 lirums, or 27740 dokoras working the commodity market.
Granted I have like 10 deobar oil and 50 papyrus in storage (hit surpluses, happens) and I made my own chart of prices and supply. Either I'm getting fee'd to death with the commissions and ferry fees, or it's just not worth trading in small 5, 10, 20 unit runs. Course, that's generally all that's available. Either that or 1) I'm doing something seriously wrong or 2) commodities are still 'broken'.
Not learning much trading from commods either, seemed better when I just ran Zoluren routes ad nauseum.
Thoughts?
Balkinar Goldbiter, getting taken to the cleaners on commods
LAUGHINGGOD
LAUGHINGGOD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
11/04/2009 11:55 PM CST
Correction: actually turned in a couple and made a nice profit---
After a bit more study you are certain that you have lost 3473 kronars, 2779 lirums, or 2506 dokoras working the commodity market.
But here's after turning in a contract, 66 slate and 150 corn:
Trading: 96 30% learning (3/34)
That's from clear.
Again, am I still doing something wrong, or should I just look for the 'big scores' (i.e., at least 50 units and 20% profit margin?)
Balkinar Goldbiter, still learning the market
After a bit more study you are certain that you have lost 3473 kronars, 2779 lirums, or 2506 dokoras working the commodity market.
But here's after turning in a contract, 66 slate and 150 corn:
Trading: 96 30% learning (3/34)
That's from clear.
Again, am I still doing something wrong, or should I just look for the 'big scores' (i.e., at least 50 units and 20% profit margin?)
Balkinar Goldbiter, still learning the market
VAGELO
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
11/05/2009 02:02 PM CST
>Either I'm getting fee'd to death with the commissions...
For every commod you buy, you have to pay the "transport fee" or whatever it's called. When I was doing commods with my trader (hated running contracts), it was 50 kronars for every "transport fee". In other words, if you're buying 5 corn (in 1 purchase), you need to sell all 5 for 10 profit each, just to break even.
I didn't realize this for a while, until I started tracking my bank in Crossing, and after 4 days of commod trading, 6+ hours each day, I had only gained 1 plat total. So I started paying more attention to see where all the costs were coming from. If you are buying 1 at a time, like copper (which is almost always sold out), you are severely hurting your profits.
However, I can say after about 2 runs back and forth (hitting Crossing 2 times, and Arthe 2 times) I was usually in the low/mid teens learning rates. So either you are spending a very long time tracking which commods to buy, or just not buying enough different commods to raise experience. If it's the latter, I would say that is because the profit margins are too small on most commods to bring a profit.
Almost every Trader my brother and I have played since the commodity system was around, have done more commod work than contract work. We swore this was a better method. We used to swear that people were crazy when they said commods were broken. Now that I've actually paid more attention to the purchase speeches, I see what people mean.
The advantages commods do have, is speed and reliability. You know where you're going every time, and you don't have to worry about something popping up and requiring 30+ minutes to deliver the last of your contracts before you can leave.
-Master Ndin
For every commod you buy, you have to pay the "transport fee" or whatever it's called. When I was doing commods with my trader (hated running contracts), it was 50 kronars for every "transport fee". In other words, if you're buying 5 corn (in 1 purchase), you need to sell all 5 for 10 profit each, just to break even.
I didn't realize this for a while, until I started tracking my bank in Crossing, and after 4 days of commod trading, 6+ hours each day, I had only gained 1 plat total. So I started paying more attention to see where all the costs were coming from. If you are buying 1 at a time, like copper (which is almost always sold out), you are severely hurting your profits.
However, I can say after about 2 runs back and forth (hitting Crossing 2 times, and Arthe 2 times) I was usually in the low/mid teens learning rates. So either you are spending a very long time tracking which commods to buy, or just not buying enough different commods to raise experience. If it's the latter, I would say that is because the profit margins are too small on most commods to bring a profit.
Almost every Trader my brother and I have played since the commodity system was around, have done more commod work than contract work. We swore this was a better method. We used to swear that people were crazy when they said commods were broken. Now that I've actually paid more attention to the purchase speeches, I see what people mean.
The advantages commods do have, is speed and reliability. You know where you're going every time, and you don't have to worry about something popping up and requiring 30+ minutes to deliver the last of your contracts before you can leave.
-Master Ndin
LAUGHINGGOD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
11/06/2009 12:51 AM CST
I understand the 50 kronar transportation fee, I'm just wondering if "the guild's cut" is something else I need to consider. Can't give you a cut/paste example now, but I'll post one when I'm trading.
I've actually had a couple nice grain runs from Crossing to Leth. Do most traders deal exclusively with Crossing and Arthe and don't bother with Leth? At least the last three days I was trading, there weren't many, maybe 5, that were profitable or didn't have surplus.
I do write out all the prices and had a script to ask the clerk how much of each commodity is available. I pick up contracts at the same time, so far haven't been late on any of them. Maybe I'm taking "too long" executing trades, I don't know. Maybe next time I'll just try Crossing to Arthe runs for an hour or so and see what happens.
I'll keep ya's posted.
Balkinar Goldbiter, only short a few gold from commodities
I've actually had a couple nice grain runs from Crossing to Leth. Do most traders deal exclusively with Crossing and Arthe and don't bother with Leth? At least the last three days I was trading, there weren't many, maybe 5, that were profitable or didn't have surplus.
I do write out all the prices and had a script to ask the clerk how much of each commodity is available. I pick up contracts at the same time, so far haven't been late on any of them. Maybe I'm taking "too long" executing trades, I don't know. Maybe next time I'll just try Crossing to Arthe runs for an hour or so and see what happens.
I'll keep ya's posted.
Balkinar Goldbiter, only short a few gold from commodities
VAGELO
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
11/06/2009 12:56 AM CST
>Do most traders deal exclusively with Crossing and Arthe and don't bother with Leth?
I know the caravan/pack mule slows the gondola down, not sure about the ferry. I never went to Leth because prices can change in an instant anyhow, and it takes twice as long (or 3x?) to get to Leth (mainly due to ferry, especially if you miss it). Also, the ferry fare was always another cost I had to manage into my profits.
-Master Ndin
I know the caravan/pack mule slows the gondola down, not sure about the ferry. I never went to Leth because prices can change in an instant anyhow, and it takes twice as long (or 3x?) to get to Leth (mainly due to ferry, especially if you miss it). Also, the ferry fare was always another cost I had to manage into my profits.
-Master Ndin
LAUGHINGGOD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
11/07/2009 11:00 AM CST
I never saw huge changes in price at the Leth pit, just the supply.
I'll try just trading between Crossing/Arthe for a while...I know the ferry fees do add up.
Balkinar Goldbiter, staying away from the Leth pit for a while
I'll try just trading between Crossing/Arthe for a while...I know the ferry fees do add up.
Balkinar Goldbiter, staying away from the Leth pit for a while
SCHULTZS3
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
01/28/2010 10:29 PM CST
I spent 5 hours this morning writing a spreadsheet to calculate what to buy and how much to transport based on quickly copy/pasting board results into the sheet, and determine raw profit before the guild's cut (haven't tried figuring that part out yet).
I used to think commodities were pretty good, but the numbers I saw were very, very small profits. That, plus not accounting for Guild fees and cuts, ferry fares, theft on the routes, the inevitable swaying of prices at the destination while you're en route, and that the pit you're at may not even HAVE all that much of the item you want to buy and transport.
It all seems so self limiting.
Maybe it was better when I was doing commodities back when I was like 12th circle, but once I could do decent bonuses, I've just done gem pouch selling. As a 41st circle Trader, I don't really see that changing until the commodity system rewrite.
I used to think commodities were pretty good, but the numbers I saw were very, very small profits. That, plus not accounting for Guild fees and cuts, ferry fares, theft on the routes, the inevitable swaying of prices at the destination while you're en route, and that the pit you're at may not even HAVE all that much of the item you want to buy and transport.
It all seems so self limiting.
Maybe it was better when I was doing commodities back when I was like 12th circle, but once I could do decent bonuses, I've just done gem pouch selling. As a 41st circle Trader, I don't really see that changing until the commodity system rewrite.
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
01/29/2010 10:56 AM CST
welcome to a system that was designed when 1 plat was a lot of money.
diamonds for 2 gold! o boy!
diamonds for 2 gold! o boy!
LAUGHINGGOD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/01/2010 12:19 PM CST
>>>I spent 5 hours this morning writing a spreadsheet to calculate what to buy and how much to transport based on quickly copy/pasting board results into the sheet, and determine raw profit before the guild's cut (haven't tried figuring that part out yet).<<<
I made a matrix with the breaking/average prices and put 'em into plastic protectors. I'd write the amounts with a china marker...tried to do a spreadsheet, but my Excel skills are extremely lacking.
Be nice to see what you whipped up. I completely agree that the profit margins need to be fixed, big time. For the hours I spend trading, the coin and the experience weren't worth it. Better just to hire a crier "Balkinar's sellin' pouches" and have a couple people come in and lock my trading with four pouches.
Balkinar Goldbiter
Sellin' pouches for fun and profit
I made a matrix with the breaking/average prices and put 'em into plastic protectors. I'd write the amounts with a china marker...tried to do a spreadsheet, but my Excel skills are extremely lacking.
Be nice to see what you whipped up. I completely agree that the profit margins need to be fixed, big time. For the hours I spend trading, the coin and the experience weren't worth it. Better just to hire a crier "Balkinar's sellin' pouches" and have a couple people come in and lock my trading with four pouches.
Balkinar Goldbiter
Sellin' pouches for fun and profit
GOSSFORD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/02/2010 05:40 AM CST
Commodities have been broken since Shapeshifter, I think it was, cornered it and was making a lot of money. Now its not worth it. The system is broken intentionally. I did the same thing spreadsheeted it, charted it, graphed it ect and you cant realy make money at it.
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/02/2010 09:47 AM CST
well, you sure cant make money if you determine absolutes and averages.
i make about 10 plat an hour at it
i make about 10 plat an hour at it
SCHULTZS3
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/02/2010 04:03 PM CST
>>Be nice to see what you whipped up.<<
Sure. I tracked down Rajara, who I'm asking to host the small spreadsheet.
Rajara is hosting it at http://lostonawhim.com/index.php?get=traders-ctrading. It's down at the bottom under Commodities.
>>well, you sure cant make money if you determine absolutes and averages.
i make about 10 plat an hour at it<<
No offense, but I highly doubt that. Well, I at least doubt the consistency of it. 10 plat on a few wonderful trades, but then nothing great for a couple hours. To take an example stamped in my sheet, which shows to me how I can improve my own sheet:
80 Limes from Leth to Arthe would be a 7 gold profit. Easily the biggest transaction to make a profit on. Unfortunately limes are going fast in Leth, so there's no more than 49 limes, leaving you with a net profit of no more than 4312 kronar. Not counting guild cut on the 2.5 plat lime purchase, guild transportation (loading) fee (50 kronar), ferry fare (meh, 110?).
Actually, theoretically buying everything you could from Leth to fill Both Crossing and Arthe that you can profit on would net you barely 8 gold. Without even accounting for Leth's supply of what you CAN buy to make profit. That's why it's limited.
Otherwise, if you want to make more profit, you're going to have to buy when things are particularly low priced, and store it, which costs money. And keep paying attention to market prices. But that's not particularly great for learning Trading. I suppose I could add in minimum and maximum prices for commodities to calculate the absolute best gross profit you could ever have.
Sure. I tracked down Rajara, who I'm asking to host the small spreadsheet.
Rajara is hosting it at http://lostonawhim.com/index.php?get=traders-ctrading. It's down at the bottom under Commodities.
>>well, you sure cant make money if you determine absolutes and averages.
i make about 10 plat an hour at it<<
No offense, but I highly doubt that. Well, I at least doubt the consistency of it. 10 plat on a few wonderful trades, but then nothing great for a couple hours. To take an example stamped in my sheet, which shows to me how I can improve my own sheet:
80 Limes from Leth to Arthe would be a 7 gold profit. Easily the biggest transaction to make a profit on. Unfortunately limes are going fast in Leth, so there's no more than 49 limes, leaving you with a net profit of no more than 4312 kronar. Not counting guild cut on the 2.5 plat lime purchase, guild transportation (loading) fee (50 kronar), ferry fare (meh, 110?).
Actually, theoretically buying everything you could from Leth to fill Both Crossing and Arthe that you can profit on would net you barely 8 gold. Without even accounting for Leth's supply of what you CAN buy to make profit. That's why it's limited.
Otherwise, if you want to make more profit, you're going to have to buy when things are particularly low priced, and store it, which costs money. And keep paying attention to market prices. But that's not particularly great for learning Trading. I suppose I could add in minimum and maximum prices for commodities to calculate the absolute best gross profit you could ever have.
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/03/2010 02:20 PM CST
sure you can doubt it, no problem.
how many commodities do you assume i carry at once?
my average, not max, load is about 2000 units at all times and i buy and sell about 500 units at every stop, every time.
if you play commodities to make the big sell, or awesome buys, its a little slow... but i play the market based on current trends and current averages, and carry practically a full set of options at all times.
like my poker play, i grind the commodities, and griding it works just well for me.
This is not my entire history. My ledger gets reset frequently, i'd say every year or two.
You have bought the following Commodities:
diamonds - 11956
pearls - 13659
gold - 13682
silver - 14580
iron ore - 15446
amber - 12284
saffron - 12961
cinnamon - 13541
papyrus - 14234
oranges - 14836
limes - 15166
slate - 15730
brass - 15792
lead - 10518
copper - 13804
bronze - 8708
silk - 14956
cotton - 10914
wool - 14397
velvet - 12853
lace - 4195
deobar oil - 13886
myrrh - 13189
salt - 13708
indigo - 12524
purple dye - 15037
barley - 14613
wheat - 13325
oats - 12925
corn - 12054
acanth - 14125
taffelberries - 15154
apples - 15127
You glance at the mass of information here and determine that you have delivered a total of 108954 contracts to the various outposts. You feel that further study might reveal more details.
You flip back and forth through the pages of your ledger. After a moments consideration you are confident that you have made a small mint in kronars, a small mint in lirums, or a small mint in dokoras delivering contracted goods.
After a bit more study you are certain that you have made 178048373 kronars, 142438699 lirums, or 128479706 dokoras working the commodity market.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
how many commodities do you assume i carry at once?
my average, not max, load is about 2000 units at all times and i buy and sell about 500 units at every stop, every time.
if you play commodities to make the big sell, or awesome buys, its a little slow... but i play the market based on current trends and current averages, and carry practically a full set of options at all times.
like my poker play, i grind the commodities, and griding it works just well for me.
This is not my entire history. My ledger gets reset frequently, i'd say every year or two.
You have bought the following Commodities:
diamonds - 11956
pearls - 13659
gold - 13682
silver - 14580
iron ore - 15446
amber - 12284
saffron - 12961
cinnamon - 13541
papyrus - 14234
oranges - 14836
limes - 15166
slate - 15730
brass - 15792
lead - 10518
copper - 13804
bronze - 8708
silk - 14956
cotton - 10914
wool - 14397
velvet - 12853
lace - 4195
deobar oil - 13886
myrrh - 13189
salt - 13708
indigo - 12524
purple dye - 15037
barley - 14613
wheat - 13325
oats - 12925
corn - 12054
acanth - 14125
taffelberries - 15154
apples - 15127
You glance at the mass of information here and determine that you have delivered a total of 108954 contracts to the various outposts. You feel that further study might reveal more details.
You flip back and forth through the pages of your ledger. After a moments consideration you are confident that you have made a small mint in kronars, a small mint in lirums, or a small mint in dokoras delivering contracted goods.
After a bit more study you are certain that you have made 178048373 kronars, 142438699 lirums, or 128479706 dokoras working the commodity market.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/03/2010 03:04 PM CST
to follow up, i wanted to confirm that 10 plat an hour is measly pay.
i'm still amazed that people that spend time mostly in combat can make 10x that.
us being traders, regardless of the game's fiscal situation, by default at the same levels/average circles, should be doing much better than simple barbarians, thieves, and mages.
its the trader guild, and makin 10 plat an hour, or even 50 is a joke to me.
Actually, its a slap in the face.
i'm still amazed that people that spend time mostly in combat can make 10x that.
us being traders, regardless of the game's fiscal situation, by default at the same levels/average circles, should be doing much better than simple barbarians, thieves, and mages.
its the trader guild, and makin 10 plat an hour, or even 50 is a joke to me.
Actually, its a slap in the face.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/05/2010 04:54 AM CST
So basically you carry everything.
My max caravan load at 42 is some 500 odd.
My max caravan load at 42 is some 500 odd.
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/05/2010 02:07 PM CST
Everything is a good estimate.
I dont buy things that sell for less than 1 silver.
I dont buy things unless the price is atleast 1% less than current average
I dont buy things unless i can buy atleast 2 at a time.
I dont sell things unless the sell value is atleast 1% over current average
average price is very dumbly determined by:
((current average) * 9) + current price)/10
unless i'm in leth, then its
((current average) * 8) + (current price*2))/10
i set my breaking prices at 1% as trading commodities is a really nice way to gain trading experience, regardless what everyone else says. :P
if you were lookin to make even more of a profit per trade, but less trades, i might suggest 5% breaks.
I dont buy things that sell for less than 1 silver.
I dont buy things unless the price is atleast 1% less than current average
I dont buy things unless i can buy atleast 2 at a time.
I dont sell things unless the sell value is atleast 1% over current average
average price is very dumbly determined by:
((current average) * 9) + current price)/10
unless i'm in leth, then its
((current average) * 8) + (current price*2))/10
i set my breaking prices at 1% as trading commodities is a really nice way to gain trading experience, regardless what everyone else says. :P
if you were lookin to make even more of a profit per trade, but less trades, i might suggest 5% breaks.
SHADOW7988
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/25/2010 02:24 AM CST
Actually this makes me sad. I mean that whole thing seems so totally wrong to the Lore of the Traders. Traders are supposed to have the Coins, yes those darn thieves are supposed to steal some, but ever after that they are supposed to get to the bank and leave a load in there.
However sadly hunters can easily make 10x that. While I can't come close (Don't have a trader). However my top ranked character can make roughly 10 platinum a day between the skins and hunting, and he is only 30 circle.
I really hope you guys get some love and some specialsauce of awesomesilk or something like that.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
However sadly hunters can easily make 10x that. While I can't come close (Don't have a trader). However my top ranked character can make roughly 10 platinum a day between the skins and hunting, and he is only 30 circle.
I really hope you guys get some love and some specialsauce of awesomesilk or something like that.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
RUBYTU
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/25/2010 11:27 AM CST
I have a friend who told me sometime last year that his high level trader (60ish at the time) raked in the plats doing routes. Much much more than my almost 50th thief makes hunting Gryphons.
Ways to fail at RP:
Maikime says, "I imagine now that she's pharmed consent Vashir should be here any time now."
Morkim says, "I don't know why. I'm open too."
Ways to fail at RP:
Maikime says, "I imagine now that she's pharmed consent Vashir should be here any time now."
Morkim says, "I don't know why. I'm open too."
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/26/2010 03:25 PM CST
You will find that an effecient system will almost always beat out an ineffecient system, pretty much no matter what the tasks are.
You can really only compare profit rates once you have proven that both systems utilize equally efficient practices relative to tasks at hand.
An efficient trader can make more money than a non-efficient hunter, and vice versa, a efficient hunter can do better than a inefficient trader.
But when compared on equal relative playing fields, I found that the hunter beats out the trader roughly 2:1 in profits.
You can really only compare profit rates once you have proven that both systems utilize equally efficient practices relative to tasks at hand.
An efficient trader can make more money than a non-efficient hunter, and vice versa, a efficient hunter can do better than a inefficient trader.
But when compared on equal relative playing fields, I found that the hunter beats out the trader roughly 2:1 in profits.
GAUNSTAR
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/26/2010 03:32 PM CST
by the way, i'm talking 1000 plat a day, not 10.
at numbers like that, it magnifies the problem with the hunting treasure system and thoes that use it.
at numbers like that, it magnifies the problem with the hunting treasure system and thoes that use it.
JMF90
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/27/2010 04:32 PM CST
Agreed, Gaunstar. Plus, with hunting you're learning tons of useful skills at the same time. Not so much with trading.
GOSSFORD
Re: Commodities, am I messing up?
02/28/2010 08:20 PM CST
Just some observations.
I have been gone for a very long time and am just getting a feel for things again.
I started a new character that is now 15th circle and that character selling his own grass eel bundles is making between 2 and 3 plat an hour. Gossford at 101st circle running contracts makes somewhere around the range of 10 to 15 plat an hour.
With a steady supply of gem customers I could make more than that but its not consistent.
Commodities are not an option if more than 1 person is doing them at the same time it is negative income.
Right now the money seems to be in gems and pelts. I have started establishing a new network of hunters to handle their gems for them if I get back up to where I was I could make 100s of plat a day but its a lot of work and you have to play to their schedules.
Right now if you want to make coin at lower circles I would recommend killing stuff. As for making coin at higher levels I would recommend befriending the higher hunters and try to cater to their needs.
I have been gone for a very long time and am just getting a feel for things again.
I started a new character that is now 15th circle and that character selling his own grass eel bundles is making between 2 and 3 plat an hour. Gossford at 101st circle running contracts makes somewhere around the range of 10 to 15 plat an hour.
With a steady supply of gem customers I could make more than that but its not consistent.
Commodities are not an option if more than 1 person is doing them at the same time it is negative income.
Right now the money seems to be in gems and pelts. I have started establishing a new network of hunters to handle their gems for them if I get back up to where I was I could make 100s of plat a day but its a lot of work and you have to play to their schedules.
Right now if you want to make coin at lower circles I would recommend killing stuff. As for making coin at higher levels I would recommend befriending the higher hunters and try to cater to their needs.
