I've been out of this game a few years and have been pondering a comeback. In my earlier life, I really enjoyed playing a Thief and was considering rolling up another one. However, having been perusing these boards I am somewhat dismayed that it appears like backstab is no longer a particularly useful skill.
To be honest, I truly loved backstab as a defining feature of myself as a Thief; and am somewhat leery at trying my hand at a Thief without backstab as something both enjoyable and useful. Is it true that backstab has been for all practical purposes wholesale replaced with ambush? If so, is it a working as intended feature or something that will be fixed in the future?
I know some folks will say try it out before listening to what others will say, however, I've played this game before and I know that I have many many hours of hunting rats, and hogs, and then whiffing on louts before and can pretty fairly even hit the super low level critters to make a evaluation.
RASMAN
TRINEAN
Re: Thief 101
05/15/2010 03:50 PM CDT
Backstab is great... just not overwhelmingly so for PVP.
URUTU
Re: Thief 101
05/15/2010 05:30 PM CDT
Backstab is useful and kills very well.
The issue that comes up the most is experience. Perhaps that's what you meant by enjoyable. In most situations backstab doesn't seem to train as well as hiding and stalking, so we resort to ambushing bodyparts. The idea I've been suggesting is that since the skill is going to be downtweaked a bit, I'm hoping that will justify a boost in experience per backstab attempt. We'll see.
A weeping willow reads:
"Under the branches of this holy tree.
I offered my love unto thee.
I held you in my arms so tight.
Then, with a simple kiss our hearts took flight.
Blessed by the gods were we.
All with a simple kiss under this sacred tree."
A vile plague wraith glides into view, carefully searching for intruders.
The issue that comes up the most is experience. Perhaps that's what you meant by enjoyable. In most situations backstab doesn't seem to train as well as hiding and stalking, so we resort to ambushing bodyparts. The idea I've been suggesting is that since the skill is going to be downtweaked a bit, I'm hoping that will justify a boost in experience per backstab attempt. We'll see.
A weeping willow reads:
"Under the branches of this holy tree.
I offered my love unto thee.
I held you in my arms so tight.
Then, with a simple kiss our hearts took flight.
Blessed by the gods were we.
All with a simple kiss under this sacred tree."
A vile plague wraith glides into view, carefully searching for intruders.
JMF90
Re: Thief 101
05/15/2010 08:01 PM CDT
>Is it true that backstab has been for all practical purposes wholesale replaced with ambush?
For the most part this is true, but only when it comes to training the backstab skill. Backstab can still be viable in PvP except when someone is watching for you. And backstab is very nice for killing quickly for boxes or coin, especially when combined with the shadowstep khri which lets you advance quickly in hiding.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
For the most part this is true, but only when it comes to training the backstab skill. Backstab can still be viable in PvP except when someone is watching for you. And backstab is very nice for killing quickly for boxes or coin, especially when combined with the shadowstep khri which lets you advance quickly in hiding.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
JRSCORPION
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 04:29 PM CDT
>>However, having been perusing these boards I am somewhat dismayed that it appears like backstab is no longer a particularly useful skill.
I came back after being gone eight years, and without a doubt backstab is a LOT more useful now than it was before.
Training it can be tricky until you figure out a routine that works for you. But it's totally worth it.
I came back after being gone eight years, and without a doubt backstab is a LOT more useful now than it was before.
Training it can be tricky until you figure out a routine that works for you. But it's totally worth it.
MAGHRIT
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 04:30 PM CDT
>>it appears like backstab is no longer a particularly useful skill.
Its one of the most usefull skills in the game. Hands down. Still.
>>>Is it true that backstab has been for all practical purposes wholesale replaced with ambush?
>>For the most part this is true, but only when it comes to training the backstab skill. Backstab can still be viable in PvP except when someone is watching for you. And backstab is very nice for killing quickly for boxes or coin, especially when combined with the shadowstep khri which lets you advance quickly in hiding.
>>>>For the most part this is true
Don't listen to JMF90. He's still stuck on the whole experience thing. Backstab has not been replaced with ambush.
Alot of folks still swear backstab doesn't teach when you use the verb as well as Attacking (ambushing) from hiding. If you ask me, I still swear its a bug with overteaching from using that method. But meh, thats just me.
Jim
Its one of the most usefull skills in the game. Hands down. Still.
>>>Is it true that backstab has been for all practical purposes wholesale replaced with ambush?
>>For the most part this is true, but only when it comes to training the backstab skill. Backstab can still be viable in PvP except when someone is watching for you. And backstab is very nice for killing quickly for boxes or coin, especially when combined with the shadowstep khri which lets you advance quickly in hiding.
>>>>For the most part this is true
Don't listen to JMF90. He's still stuck on the whole experience thing. Backstab has not been replaced with ambush.
Alot of folks still swear backstab doesn't teach when you use the verb as well as Attacking (ambushing) from hiding. If you ask me, I still swear its a bug with overteaching from using that method. But meh, thats just me.
Jim
JMF90
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 04:51 PM CDT
>Don't listen to JMF90. He's still stuck on the whole experience thing. Backstab has not been replaced with ambush.
If you actually read my post, I clarified that aside from the exp issue, backstab remains a good skill.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
If you actually read my post, I clarified that aside from the exp issue, backstab remains a good skill.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
MAGHRIT
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 04:54 PM CDT
>>If you actually read my post, I clarified that aside from the exp issue, backstab remains a good skill.
yYu still scream the same thing over and over and over everytime backstab comes up in any conversation. In any folder on these forums.
I still think a GM should look into the whole thing and take a look at learning backstab from the way that everyone is learning it. And still say that learning backstab that way should be turned off, since your not backstabbing. Your attacking from the side and not looking for that one vital spot to hit to kill. Thats the difference. Attacking from hiding (ambushing) is not backstabbing. Your flanking, or anything for that matter. But thats me. Maybe I'll bring it up at the next plat meeting. See if I can get it on the table to be looked at.
Jim
yYu still scream the same thing over and over and over everytime backstab comes up in any conversation. In any folder on these forums.
I still think a GM should look into the whole thing and take a look at learning backstab from the way that everyone is learning it. And still say that learning backstab that way should be turned off, since your not backstabbing. Your attacking from the side and not looking for that one vital spot to hit to kill. Thats the difference. Attacking from hiding (ambushing) is not backstabbing. Your flanking, or anything for that matter. But thats me. Maybe I'll bring it up at the next plat meeting. See if I can get it on the table to be looked at.
Jim
YAMCER
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 05:34 PM CDT
<<still say that learning backstab that way should be turned off, since your not backstabbing>>
If backstab were just hitting someone on the back anyone could do it. But with the plethora of ambush abilities that use the skill it becomes more of a precise strategic attack to a vital area. Dirt to the eyes, hand to the carotid, precision slice to tendons, ect. The backstab skill is all about finding openings that your opponent didn't even know were there.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
If backstab were just hitting someone on the back anyone could do it. But with the plethora of ambush abilities that use the skill it becomes more of a precise strategic attack to a vital area. Dirt to the eyes, hand to the carotid, precision slice to tendons, ect. The backstab skill is all about finding openings that your opponent didn't even know were there.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
MAGHRIT
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 08:38 PM CDT
>>If backstab were just hitting someone on the back anyone could do it. But with the plethora of ambush abilities that use the skill it becomes more of a precise strategic attack to a vital area. Dirt to the eyes, hand to the carotid, precision slice to tendons, ect. The backstab skill is all about finding openings that your opponent didn't even know were there.
Ambushing does not mean to strategically attack a vital area. If that were the case, it would be backstabing. Ambushing even according to the guild leaders you get a "what?".
>ask crow about strike
Crow smiles crookedly before signing, "Once you've been in this business for a while, you learn to go for the jugular when you've got the opportunity. This will help you better understand when is the right time and right place to strike."
>ask crow about backstab
Crow signs, "Yes, that's useful. I think you're doing well enough on your own, though."
>ask crow about ambush
Crow blinks and makes the sign for "What?"
From Dictionary.com by the way.
back·stab (bāk'stāb')
tr.v. back·stabbed, back·stab·bing, back·stabs
To attack (someone) unfairly, especially in an underhand, deceitful manner
am·bush (ām'bŏŏsh)
n.
The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
Those hiding in order to attack by surprise.
tr.v. am·bushed, am·bush·ing, am·bush·es
To attack from a concealed position.
Backstabbing is looking for that one vital spot to attack from behind. Not from the flank, not from the front, etc etc. Ambushing is just doing that. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise. If your goin to learn the backstab skill, than you should actually use the Backstab syntax. Not the attack syntax. Your just sneaking up on your foe that way. Surprising them. It even says so when you look at the messaging between the two.
Using Swamp trolls as the test subject here:
You close to melee range on a swamp troll.
>attack head
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the swamp troll's head.
You leap out of hiding and ambush a swamp troll, completely surprising it.
>>< Moving like a striking snake, you step backward and then slice at a swamp troll. A swamp troll repulses the jambiya with a maul.
>>[You're somewhat off balance with opponent in good position.]
>>[Roundtime 1 sec.]
nowhere in this message does it say your thrusting, just attacking normally.
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
The swamp troll searches around for a moment.
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a swamp troll!
>>< Moving as one fluid extension of power, you thrust a darkened jambiya set with a sinuous yellow sapphire panther on the hilt at a swamp troll. A swamp troll fails to dodge, taking the full blow. The jambiya lands a powerful strike that punctures deeply into one side of the troll's stomach and out the other.
[You're nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
The swamp troll searches around for a moment.
>attack back
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the swamp troll's back.
You leap out of hiding and ambush a swamp troll, completely surprising it.
>>< Moving like a striking snake, you step backward and then slice at a swamp troll. A swamp troll repulses nearly all the jambiya with a maul. The jambiya lands a brushing strike to the troll's back.
[You're somewhat off balance with opponent in good position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
>back
>
>back
You slip out of concealment and backstab a swamp troll!
< Moving with incredible power and control, you thrust a darkened jambiya set with a sinuous yellow sapphire panther on the hilt at a swamp troll. A swamp troll attempts to dodge, taking the full blow. The jambiya lands a spine-rattling strike that skewers a perfect hole between the shoulder blades (Heart Burn!).
A swamp troll falls dead to the ground with a squishy thud.
The shimmering ethereal shield fades from around a swamp troll.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
There's nothing saying your backstabing while attacking. When you attack from hiding, its a normal attack, just leaping out of hiding. Not from concealment, and your not backstabbing. From what I'm seeing, "ambush"ing shouldn't even be teaching backstab. And since it is, the way its experience is set, to me, its set to high. Or, backstab is set to low. One or the other. But in my opinion, attacking from hiding shouldn't even be teaching backstab. But thats me.
Jim
Ambushing does not mean to strategically attack a vital area. If that were the case, it would be backstabing. Ambushing even according to the guild leaders you get a "what?".
>ask crow about strike
Crow smiles crookedly before signing, "Once you've been in this business for a while, you learn to go for the jugular when you've got the opportunity. This will help you better understand when is the right time and right place to strike."
>ask crow about backstab
Crow signs, "Yes, that's useful. I think you're doing well enough on your own, though."
>ask crow about ambush
Crow blinks and makes the sign for "What?"
From Dictionary.com by the way.
back·stab (bāk'stāb')
tr.v. back·stabbed, back·stab·bing, back·stabs
To attack (someone) unfairly, especially in an underhand, deceitful manner
am·bush (ām'bŏŏsh)
n.
The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
Those hiding in order to attack by surprise.
tr.v. am·bushed, am·bush·ing, am·bush·es
To attack from a concealed position.
Backstabbing is looking for that one vital spot to attack from behind. Not from the flank, not from the front, etc etc. Ambushing is just doing that. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise. If your goin to learn the backstab skill, than you should actually use the Backstab syntax. Not the attack syntax. Your just sneaking up on your foe that way. Surprising them. It even says so when you look at the messaging between the two.
Using Swamp trolls as the test subject here:
You close to melee range on a swamp troll.
>attack head
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the swamp troll's head.
You leap out of hiding and ambush a swamp troll, completely surprising it.
>>< Moving like a striking snake, you step backward and then slice at a swamp troll. A swamp troll repulses the jambiya with a maul.
>>[You're somewhat off balance with opponent in good position.]
>>[Roundtime 1 sec.]
nowhere in this message does it say your thrusting, just attacking normally.
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
The swamp troll searches around for a moment.
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a swamp troll!
>>< Moving as one fluid extension of power, you thrust a darkened jambiya set with a sinuous yellow sapphire panther on the hilt at a swamp troll. A swamp troll fails to dodge, taking the full blow. The jambiya lands a powerful strike that punctures deeply into one side of the troll's stomach and out the other.
[You're nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
The swamp troll searches around for a moment.
>attack back
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the swamp troll's back.
You leap out of hiding and ambush a swamp troll, completely surprising it.
>>< Moving like a striking snake, you step backward and then slice at a swamp troll. A swamp troll repulses nearly all the jambiya with a maul. The jambiya lands a brushing strike to the troll's back.
[You're somewhat off balance with opponent in good position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>hide
>>You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
>back
>
>back
You slip out of concealment and backstab a swamp troll!
< Moving with incredible power and control, you thrust a darkened jambiya set with a sinuous yellow sapphire panther on the hilt at a swamp troll. A swamp troll attempts to dodge, taking the full blow. The jambiya lands a spine-rattling strike that skewers a perfect hole between the shoulder blades (Heart Burn!).
A swamp troll falls dead to the ground with a squishy thud.
The shimmering ethereal shield fades from around a swamp troll.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
There's nothing saying your backstabing while attacking. When you attack from hiding, its a normal attack, just leaping out of hiding. Not from concealment, and your not backstabbing. From what I'm seeing, "ambush"ing shouldn't even be teaching backstab. And since it is, the way its experience is set, to me, its set to high. Or, backstab is set to low. One or the other. But in my opinion, attacking from hiding shouldn't even be teaching backstab. But thats me.
Jim
YAMCER
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 09:33 PM CDT
So, what is it about ambush that your don't find unfair, underhanded or deceitful?
What is it about backstab that you don't see it coming from a concealed position or a surprise?
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
What is it about backstab that you don't see it coming from a concealed position or a surprise?
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
MAGHRIT
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 09:39 PM CDT
>>What is it about backstab that you don't see it coming from a concealed position or a surprise?
When you "attack" It defaults to a normal attack. Feint/jab/draw/sweep/slice/chop. Where as backstab, you are Thrusting, your backstabbing. Every hit. Not just one or two backstabs. Every backstab is a thrust from behind. It doesn't default to feint/jab/draw/sweep/slice/chop/bop/bash, etc etc.
Thats all the Attack (body part) is doing. Its defaulting to a normal attack. Not an actual backstab.
Jim
When you "attack" It defaults to a normal attack. Feint/jab/draw/sweep/slice/chop. Where as backstab, you are Thrusting, your backstabbing. Every hit. Not just one or two backstabs. Every backstab is a thrust from behind. It doesn't default to feint/jab/draw/sweep/slice/chop/bop/bash, etc etc.
Thats all the Attack (body part) is doing. Its defaulting to a normal attack. Not an actual backstab.
Jim
JSTRONG80
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 09:54 PM CDT
attack {body part} does little or nothing for my training, 53rd circle, and i can lock BS within 2 minutes of locking hiding using slip stalk, ambsuh sight, and Backstab with strike/hasten/darken/focus up in fens... attacking even the eye on something takes 20 times longer oh, and BTW when you get your hunting pattern down with BS, it flies :wink:
BGUY71
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 10:15 PM CDT
>>attacking even the eye on something takes 20 times longer oh, and BTW when you get your hunting pattern down with BS, it flies :wink:
You should clarify this with a rank. Nobody is arguing the fact that you CAN move backstab using the verb. People are arguing that it requires overhunting (see the dude who needs to go to Sky Giants to lock low 400's BS using the verb), which is rather counter productive from a training efficiency standpoint.
Also, the smug attitude is silly. You're in Fens. To imply that you have some masterful insight into the game is pretty transparent.
You should clarify this with a rank. Nobody is arguing the fact that you CAN move backstab using the verb. People are arguing that it requires overhunting (see the dude who needs to go to Sky Giants to lock low 400's BS using the verb), which is rather counter productive from a training efficiency standpoint.
Also, the smug attitude is silly. You're in Fens. To imply that you have some masterful insight into the game is pretty transparent.
JMF90
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 10:16 PM CDT
>From what I'm seeing, "ambush"ing shouldn't even be teaching backstab. And since it is, the way its experience is set, to me, its set to high. Or, backstab is set to low. One or the other. But in my opinion, attacking from hiding shouldn't even be teaching backstab. But thats me.
So after telling people they should ignore me, you actually argue an extremely similar position to what I've been saying all along. Good job.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
So after telling people they should ignore me, you actually argue an extremely similar position to what I've been saying all along. Good job.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
JMF90
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 10:29 PM CDT
>Also, the smug attitude is silly. You're in Fens. To imply that you have some masterful insight into the game is pretty transparent.
This deserves repeating.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
This deserves repeating.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
JSTRONG80
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 10:41 PM CDT
just because im in fens now, doesnt mean i havent been there before, and yes, im implying that you should overhunt, i do, isnt that what khri are for anyway?
BGUY71
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 11:00 PM CDT
>>just because im in fens now, doesnt mean i havent been there before, and yes, im implying that you should overhunt, i do, isnt that what khri are for anyway?
I could overhunt and lock backstab, hiding, stalking, LE/ME, and appraisal (offhand/LT if I put in my ambush sight gosub and can actually hit them with dirt).
Or I could hunt at level and keep max pulses for that, and in addition keep max pulses running for LX, Brawl, Foraging, Perception, Evasion, MO, Shield, Parry, and Leather. Soon enough I'll add Halberd to this list.
I'll take efficiency over specific verb usage any day.
I could overhunt and lock backstab, hiding, stalking, LE/ME, and appraisal (offhand/LT if I put in my ambush sight gosub and can actually hit them with dirt).
Or I could hunt at level and keep max pulses for that, and in addition keep max pulses running for LX, Brawl, Foraging, Perception, Evasion, MO, Shield, Parry, and Leather. Soon enough I'll add Halberd to this list.
I'll take efficiency over specific verb usage any day.
BGUY71
Re: Thief 101
05/16/2010 11:06 PM CDT
Oh, I guess I should also point out that I predicted in my first post that you were over hunting. Over hunting with khri to lock backstab has been thoroughly discussed in the old thread. So again, you bring nothing new to the table.
VEE-REX
Re: Thief 101
05/17/2010 04:55 PM CDT
>>Backstab is great... just not overwhelmingly so for PVP.
Way different at higher levels.
Basically, the best way to defend against backstab at higher levels is to spot them before they reach melee in hiding. Once the Thief reaches melee in hiding then it's over.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Way different at higher levels.
Basically, the best way to defend against backstab at higher levels is to spot them before they reach melee in hiding. Once the Thief reaches melee in hiding then it's over.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
JMF90
Re: Thief 101
05/17/2010 11:46 PM CDT
>Basically, the best way to defend against backstab at higher levels is to spot them before they reach melee in hiding. Once the Thief reaches melee in hiding then it's over.
Well, that's why it isn't overwhelmingly great in PVP, thanks to the watch verb. Take the watch verb out of the equation though... look out.
Then again, at high levels most thieves have a decent ranged and the khri boosts are pretty insane. Not to mention the bugs.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Well, that's why it isn't overwhelmingly great in PVP, thanks to the watch verb. Take the watch verb out of the equation though... look out.
Then again, at high levels most thieves have a decent ranged and the khri boosts are pretty insane. Not to mention the bugs.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
