<<I'll see about dealing with backstab experience separately since it's meant to be an attack.

Excellent news, thanks Z.

Roger

That's because no shops (and only a few characters) in Elanthia are safe from you.

Roger

My BS (255) still locks faster then my hiding(385)/stalking(355) in geni.

Leuc

Will do after I rank it here in a little and post my results.

Leuc

I hadn't gotten a chance to play with the new stealth till just yesterday.
I wasn't able to move backstabbing past learning in (young) ogres with 116 in it. I thought their cap was like 140ish?
I could lock ME rather quickly though.

-V

If from what I hear that learning stealth caps have been brought down to weapon caps on critters is true..
(I don't remember reading that in an official post but I saw someone mention it, and I definitely stopped learning with what I was currently hunting - not ogres btw)
Then shouldn't the reverse be implemented and let something like young ogres teach better now?

Not really complaining, just arguing theoretics.


-V

>That's not entirely true. But in general most creatures should teach to about where weapons teach. The cap is still based off of their perception.<

I see.
Well then, carry on.


-V

Maybe I'm not understanding here, but if a creature teaches hiding/stalking about equal to weapons, and if we want to use hiding/stalking as our primary stealth, doesn't that mean we'll need to train weapons/defenses a lot higher in order to gain it off creatures?

I was training fairly nicely on sand sprites, but after the change, I couldn't learn past 120 hiding on them.

30th circle is 80 Weapon, 120 Hiding. So if I want to learn 10-20 more ranks of weapons off of Sprites, then I have to find another way to learn stealth instead of in combat.

If I try moving up to silver leucros at 80 weapon, I can't seem to kill them fast enough, so I've forced to train two separate skill sets. I tried hunting just leucros, but with my current defenses, I can't fight 3 at melee. 2 even bang me up.

I have 123 Evasion(learned through a class, not off sprites), 102 Multi-op, 83 Leather, and 98 Shield.

18 Ref/Str/Agi

I'm not angry or mad, just trying to understand the goal of making stealth and weapon training the same cap, when two guilds require stealth to be higher than weapons if you use stealth as your primary survival. Wouldn't it be kind of silly if magics capped equal to weapon and you could only effectively learn magic from combat.

>>doesn't that mean we'll need to train weapons/defenses a lot higher in order to gain it off creatures?

As a thief. Backstab can't be learned outside of combat unless you want to forever be in classes for it, but the rest are trainable out of combat (shoplifting) or in combat/hunting without necessarily actually having to expose yourself to hits you can't defend against or having to swing a weapon.

Granted, you'd be a fool not to train combats but it can be done if you are interested just in stealths and aren't a thief. Also, the farther up you go the more likely it is that any critter that can teach you will be able to hit you from afar in some fashion, whether that be with longer weapons, charging/pouncing, spells, webs, or ranged weapons.

TIP: work conservatively when deciding how far up to go with your lacking combats. Teaching ranges incorporate assumptions that you have enough combat/utility skills to handle any mistakes or bad situations you might encounter.

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

Does the guard house still teach hiding and stalking to around 100?


A thief believes everybody steals.
Edward W. Howe

>>I believe Backstab itself uses its own exp model. Ambush uses core stealth. (I could be wrong)

This doesn't seem to be the case, with Backstab, I mean. As a 20th Circle Thief with Combats/Stealths closing in on reqs for 30, my Backstabs are constantly stunning Sand Sprites and I'm unable to continue gaining experience in that skill. Can't seem to get it above concentrating even though my BS ranks are still within the teachable range.

By the time I hit concentrating my Hide/Stalk are ML or close and my mind is beginning to get murky.

Having played with the new system for a while, I'm going to agree with this original post's observation. It seems that Backstab exp bits are lacking in comparison to Hide, Stalk, and Weapon.

Hunting like i normally do, on critters that are just at my level (day time i need to use dirt, night with max confidence i don't) Backstab is just not moving like hide and stalk. I get Heavy hits, stuns now and again, I kill things pretty slowly though since I use an Elven Telo. So it will take several strikes to kill a critter, but that should mean more exp bits, right?

---

Medium Edged: 239 57% mind lock
Hiding: 358 04% mind lock
Stalking: 335 67% mind lock
Backstab: 283 43% perplexing
Overall state of mind: fluid

---

You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game.

---

You assess your combat situation...

You (hidden and solidly balanced) are facing a red-bristled gremlin (1) at melee range.

H>mark all grem
You carefully size up the red-bristled gremlin, gauging its overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the red-bristled gremlin, you believe it's somewhat of a long shot.
You also eye the red-bristled gremlin over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the red-bristled gremlin, it's about even odds.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the red-bristled gremlin, perhaps it's a little risky.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the red-bristled gremlin, it's somewhat of a long shot .
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

---

Only using avoidance khri.

Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

>>So it will take several strikes to kill a critter, but that should mean more exp bits, right?

Unless things have changed in how experience is awarded for a weaponskill (which I believe backstab is counted as a weaponskill for experience purposes even tho it's a survival skill) then not necessarily more attacks would equal more experience. Experience is awarded based on damage done, not number of attacks made.

Example: (disclaimer: numbers made up and i could be totally off on how this actually works)

Scenario 1: Critter has 100 points of vitality. You can do 40 pts of vitality damage per backstab. You can kill critter with 3 backstabs. You gain 40 bits of experience per attack. Yielding 120 bits of experience.

Scenario 2: Critter has 100 points of vitality. You can do 70 pts of vitality damage per backstab. You can kill critter with 2 backstabs. You gain 70 bits of experience per attack. Yielding 140 bits of experience.

In scenario 1 doing less damage but more attacks nets a lower ammount of experience than scenario 2 in which you only took 2 attacks to kill the same creature, but gained more experience.

Skills that fall under this experience model are all weapon skills (not including parry and multi), backstab and targeted magic.

For weaponskill experience it's always best to do the most ammount of damage to a creature that you can possibly do in the least ammount of attacks possible.

Perhaps you may want to try out a more damaging weapon and see if you have similar results as you do with your Telo

~Tieriana~

> If i used a heavy puncture sabre I'd one shot kill em all the time. One attack per critter or five or six heavy strikes... i think the heavy strikes would net more exp per critter.

I don't know about backstab, but this is NOT the way it works for arrows/bolts. I learn much faster (ie: faster time from clear to lock) by using the best ammo I can get my hands on. This means I 1-hit everything (usually apocalyptic strike). Using crappy storebought junk ammo, I would take 2 or 3 hits to kill, and learn less in doing so. Targeting a body part that are not capped for damage (ie not a limb) is the key here, but shouldn't be a problem with backstab. Again, backstab might be different, but for weapons, you're much better off 1-hitting things than you are nicking them to death (another reason why LE/sling/etc all suck).

~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"

Medium Edged: 239 57% mind lock (Wall Rank)
Hiding: 358 04% mind lock (1 Pre-Wall)
Stalking: 335 67% mind lock (Wall Rank)
Backstab: 283 43% perplexing (3 Post Wall)
Overall state of mind: fluid

It doesn't look like it's out of whack to me.

____________
Satfiki wipes a bit of Rmel's spittle from her arm.

I prefer LE to ME for a couple of reasons.

I only use it for backstab, and hunting at level, I typically get a 1-hit kill anyway.

I like the 1 second rt and the ability to go immediately back into hiding.


________________________________________

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

<<we're assuming that 1 point of vitality damage = 1 point of exp>>

You are assuming the attack is only to some sort of hit point pool. One of the good things about backstab (and viper poison) is the fact you can destroy the back, neck, or head and it doesn't mater if the critter has 1 vitality or a million, it is dead. (would be neat if undead could survive missing vital spots)

I've never been good with the whole wall rank thing. i don't follow them well and i probably don't understand them well. I posted numbers so people with a greater handle on it could point it out if they felt that might be the cause. Which Rmel did.

I have a feeling exp for backstab is coming from only one critter, where hide and stalk contest the whole room. I could be wrong in that assumption though.

For damage, i went and used a heavy puncture saber. Slaughtered gremlins in one strike, over and over. It only slowed down my hiding exp to the rate of my backstab exp, i didn't even mind lock hide and stalk. That could be a good thing, more time to hunt since i won't stop for a murky mind. But RL time wise... slower.

Something just seems a bit off with learning Backstab as a skill.

Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

>>JMF90's Post

I know it's not a linear scale. It was an assumption made for demonstrative purposes in hopes to explain somewhat of how the weaponskill experience system works.

I think my example shows the basics of how the system works. I know it does not show all of the intracacies of the system tho. Such as bottom cap for making the attempt even tho you miss (within a certain range) and all the rest of the nuances that go into the system.

~Tieriana~

I'd have to agree with JMF90 here. There are situations i lock BS quicker with <attack right eye> and doing little to no damage than one-shot BSing.