Seemed to be more appropriate to move here from the bugs folder.

In the barbarian folders this week Kodius was open to the possibility of TM based barbarian attacks.

Is this a discussion the game is willing to have for all guilds? Opening thieves into a full suite of magic skills would be useful for more khri, and would increase the things you can conceptually do with them.

I still think that the difficulty curves of the khri are a bit strange compared to magic users, and I actively dislike the entire sit/kneel system. The reason it feels like a punishment is that you start life required to do it. It's not a tool to engage magic above your skill level. You have to sit/kneel for the first 100 ranks of life.

And I haven't ever understood how the ability to run multiples together is calculated. It seems like most/all thief magic is a flat skill based system where multiples of 50 matter.

I meant starting multiples simultaneously, apologies. Running them seems a straight cost.

I personally would be OK with ranged based debilitation moves teaching TM. And I'd also probably just like to open up magic. Right now having access to 4 out of 9 skills 'naturally' feels more like a handicap than a benefit.

Is there any chance Sagacity could be lowered in circle requirement and difficulty?

The physical damage reduction is something low level thieves really need. Higher level thieves have more tools to use, have trained off more armor and encumbrance issues, have more reflex and agility, etc.

Also, the lower level hunting grounds tend to be a bit more violent on transitions. Going from goblins to eels to beisswurms as a thief often leaves me beat to a pulp, whereas with a cleric (or guild with access to a simple damage reduction), in the same or worse armor (more hindrance and worse protection) I do it flawlessly. Evasion is powerful, but low levels are not.

Locking it behind level 70 and tier 4 just never made sense from a playability standpoint. I think it was designed to be a semi-capstone type ability, since thieves aren't supposed to have wards.

As for the thief guild leaders and the trees they teach, I don't honestly remember the last time a thief GL was personified. Whatever you read in the rooms and flavor is pretty much what we've got.

>It's not impossible, and frankly I'm not above retconing lore when necessary, but it's something that's difficult to do elegantly.

I've been thinking about it since the barbarian conversation.

Best idea I have come up with is ranged application of ambushes. And/or a preternatural application of physical attacks. Super-called-shots, or double-strike style moves. Or something similar to the war mage 'barrage' attack (which applies spell and weapon attack in 1 command).

Thieves already have ambush dirt and simply 'throw dirt'. Moving those from LT to TM could work.

Honestly at this point in the conversation we very rapidly start to copy Naruto, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. But that's kind of where thief development has lead us.

Honestly, I'd rather go the Kyusho route than any Naruto route. You use inner magic to guide strikes to pressure points, or spots that cause damage by breaking fragile internal components. So Xena instead of Naruto.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

Also, since you mentioned it, is there any documentation on what Khri actually are? You said it's supposed to be a vague transition from mental exercises to full blown supernatural, but more explanation would be great. I've never seen it actually documented anywhere as anything other than 'push button get exp for thieves thanks bye'. I always figured it was a sort of focused/etc. thing, but official explanations are better than assumptions.

>>I feel like there used to be more lore -- at least player lore -- about Khri but maybe that's something that got lost to the years of khri being cookies.

Part of me always felt that during the era of "YOU NEED TO SAY COOKIES" it was set up that way because there was no lore, so the only thing going for the concept of Khri was "secret ninja powers DON'T ASK QUESTIONS"

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I am unaware of the lore prior to the Khri rewrite. During the Khri rewrite Zeyurn made a point of emphasizing that there is a burgeoning supernatural element to them.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

Reading some other things and this thread again, is there any chance thieves could gain an area of effect damage ability?

One of the real weaknesses of thieves in PvE right now is pure damage output. We're hit very hard by normal boss flex mechanics, but there's a discussion going on about that somewhere else. But we're also single-target only output right now, which means in a stereotypical invasion our best option is actually to stand back and spam get axe;throw axe.

Everything is mowed down by magic users from 2 rooms away in 500 critter blasts while we're still engaging for backstab or aiming for ranged.

The stereotypical 'rogue' AOE is whirlwind of daggers or something.

But I have a thought on this. Dragon priests already have physical item based special attacks. Thieves already have physical item special attacks. The problem with thieves conceptually is that short of making us full blown carnival psychics or Naruto ninjas, how do you give us damage moves?

What about justifying it by use of a 'special weapon' which can be effectively concealed on the person at all times (thin chain, whatever). At level 10 or 20 thieves can jaunt off on a quest to get access to it and then rather than using mana, we psychic our damage-chain-thing at them. Takes preternatural focus and muscle control, as well as hyper intense accuracy, to use correctly and to deal damage, otherwise it's simply a potato on a stick.

If we extend that idea an AOE application becomes 'doing that a lot real fast' in a sort of death-sphere, without being a copy of whirlwind.

Alternatively, and this really amuses me, thieves could amp up their ability to mimic other guilds. Barbarian whirlwind, bard screams, straight mimic magic user TM by mental focus and sheer force of will. Have it work according to their pretend guild, maybe.

It does present a resource problem though; mages burn mana and concentration, and thieves would be double or triple dipping since all of our abilities run concentration as cyclics.

I do want to stress that it would need to be a not-physical-item item. Having to 'stow;get whip;attack;stow;get weapon' would...be rather bleeeeeeeeech. Or being able to lose it due to disarming or dis-handing.

Or ending up in a Paladins and Holy Weapons situation where loss of the item is a very significant blow to overall character ability, and so on.

Oh okay, sorry, another refinement to this idea:

If we get on the slot system and combo khri become their own thing, then khri steady and khri spar (or whatever gets the thrown weapon bonus) could work based on a kind of limited telekinesis that allows the thief to influence the trajectory of their projectiles and thrown items. This bonus would rely on and train TM + Inner Magic. The thrown/spar bonus would also benefit your ranged ambush moves.

<< The stereotypical 'rogue' AOE is whirlwind of daggers or something.

The specialized weapon concept sounds like a good fit but just to toss a couple of more ideas out there.

What strikes me about thieves and the type of AOE they could utilize is that thieves are generally known for their deceptive ability and the ability to create confusion. I know it's a little out there but a smoke bomb that would cause friendly fire by enemies mistakenly hitting each other.

In addition you could say we are naturally very proficient in alchemy and poisons. This leads me to the second suggestion. A poison/gas cloud used as an AOE attack.

I don't think these abilities would be a good fit for ambushes or just plain khri but would a new ability tree be completely out of the question? Deception or subterfuge (i believe previously suggested here on the boards) or something along those lines.

It might be interesting to allow thieves to take two paths.

The artificer path, where our special abilities become manifestations of the tool kit (poison bombs, gadgets, whatever).

Or the Ninja path, where our specials become anime-tastic (special weapons and acupuncture points etc.)

> The artificer path, where our special abilities become manifestations of the tool kit (poison bombs, gadgets, whatever).

That's kind of an interesting idea. What if thieves could use a mundane item that's cheaply/easily created with the crafting system (like black cubes) to accomplish the same thing? Rather than a black cube that acts as a smoke bomb, you have a shrapnel bomb. That would be a nifty system. Harvest a trap component. Craft a complex mechanical device. Assemble component with device. It now acts as a "cyclic" in the room you place it in until you move.

I'd really rather not see more "supernatural" in the sense of magic, as much as just like focused training and more mysticism type stuff. Way of the monk and all that.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>What if thieves could use a mundane item that's cheaply/easily created with the crafting system (like black cubes) to accomplish the same thing?

Absolutely not in no uncertain terms. DR requires the input of hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of commands.

Tracking dirt is a pain and that's free from 2 seconds RT. Consumed physical components are terrible and anyone who suggests them should be shot. Not, like, to death. But winged a bit.

What you're suggesting is a damage version of healing items, and look at exactly how popular those are. Requiring me to go craft 5m widgets to get to level 30 would be the fastest way to make me stop playing DR at all.

DR doesn't really have a place for lore-as-a-weapon applications, like creating bombs/etc. I'd rather see the fun items like black cubes and thug powders return as box rewards that you can use for fun.

>I get this. I understand the utter hatred for material components. I've shared it, but I'm thinking about something more like an enchantment than dirt or even devotion materials.

To be honest you've somehow designed a worse system than straight consumables.

You've introduced timers, physical items, randomized rewards because you can't just 'get' the components you have to 'find' them, and all of it is still somehow worse than what magic users have to deal with.

We really do not want to create new and interesting hurdles for playability. The idea you've proposed would probably work really well in a table top game. But in DR is just sounds nightmarish.

> To be honest you've somehow designed a worse system than straight consumables.

That makes me think you don't understand how this would play out.

> You've introduced timers,

Timers already exist. Cyclic TM spells. That's the hook this would tie into to ease development time.

> physical items,

You're concerned about one new item? The one-time purchase of a box to hold the component you're already throwing out today? Just use "stow" instead of "empty" in your scripts.

> randomized rewards because you can't just 'get' the components you have to 'find' them

If you're doing anything with lockpicking, you're going to find these, and keeping a couple on hand is not hard to replace them in 250 hours of gameplay. That's once a month, hunting 8 hours a day. Or once every 10 and a half days hunting 24/7. Are you telling me that you couldn't find your favorite trap component either by yourself or asking around once a month?

> and all of it is still somehow worse than what magic users have to deal with.

Except the part where you get 10 cyclic spells ( 20+ slots) for 1 Khri slot (Roughly equivalent to ~2.2 spell slots). You'd also be opening up TM and Debilitation options you couldn't really justify with how Khri works. That's not even touching on the part where you don't have to worry about room mana, multiple slots on feats, wasting more slots on multiple spells you'll never use simply because they're pre-reqs, duplicating the effects of multiple guild's signature abilities, and unique functionality given to thieves. Frankly, as proposed, I think this is way too powerful, but you can call it "worse" because you have to interact with the game once a month.

I would like a khri that allows us to focus enough to emulate the magic aura of our disguise, be it lunar, life, inner fire or whatever. If not possible then an item that is on all the time kind of like hiders, moonsilver pendant or stuff, charges of course and turns off when jail/death.
I know it is silly but would help making disguises more so.

SEND[Naohhi] We'll look into it, but for now, you're making giant errors pop up all over the place on this side. :p
SEND[Naohhi] That means.. please stop.
You have some tiny scratches to the wings.

>Conceptually I'm actually liking the special weapon idea a lot. I'm immediately reminded of the monofilament whip in Shadowrun. Incredibly powerful, but without intense dedication to using it it's really likely to "oops."

>I mean, this isn't something I can promise or anything, but I wanted to note that, yes, that's the kind of lore wrapping that could work.

I like the whip type weapon idea.

But I also like the concept of Thieves just having access to or having access to the training to get a filament strangle cord, that we can garret enemies on occasion. Concentrated focus to wrap and strangle on occasion.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 S.V.o.L.t.R

I highly enjoy the concept of using 2-3 Khri to create an extra effect. I would be sad to see it go, even if we got something better in terms of slots and Khri options. Perhaps, there could be a way for a thief to "invent" such bonus effects. Rather than have them be Khri taught by guildleaders, you have to know certain combinations and play with them, then you get messaging like...

"A sudden thought strikes you regarding the usage of your meditations. You think that by focusing on these three Khri, you can teach yourself a fourth, unknown Khri through practice."

After which, you're able to use the bonus effect as its own Khri, if that's how things end up.

Regarding the whip/garotte: Yes. Yesyesyes. Barbed blade on a long, thin chain, hookshot! GET OVER HERE. Whirlwind attack, plus pulling a single enemy to melee from hiding? So awesome.

Regarding TM: I'm reminded of the arrow from Guardians of the Galaxy. More probably, the stupid bullet bending from the movie Wanted, which fits more in line with the concept of thieves focusing their minds to adjust reality to their own way, wanting so very badly to get that blade to arc just a liiiittle to the left, midflight...

Regarding both: I'd like to see a quest to build your own device. Thieves have their lucky little items they keep with them, that's a trope, right? Turn those things into weapons. At some circle, you get told about the chain whip thing, maybe there's some NPC who builds them for you. But you gotta get the parts. Moon mages have quests like this, right? So there's multiple versions of the parts you need, and you can mix and match to create your own, with your own little flair. Add your own gem, or stuffed animal to the hilt, put your own blade on the end, choose your color, make it yours! Perhaps there's a bit of sentience involved, so you have to take it to a moon mage to build it. Anyone read the Chronicles of Amber? The second 5 books or so focused on this guy who had a sentient, invisible rope wrapped around his wrist, which he could ask to shoot out and strangle people or something?

And with the TM object, it could be like a weapon bonding potion on some small item you have. Say a trading card, or a pendant with a picture of a loved one in it. The thief grows a bond so strong with this object, it returns to them after they hurl it, and when they hurl it, it... does something to make more damage. Again, I'm seeing a quest where you visit a mage to get it imbued with a special bond, for that bit of magic flair. But after that, its all ours. No getting/stowing, no picking it up. You type in the command to hurl it, and it does its thing, returns. Bit of a cooldown to reflect the targeting matrix mages deal with. Perhaps using it sucks magic out of the air, so this thing and the whip both use mana instead of concentration. Our mana bar is less our own stored mana, and more the immediate mana in the area that our items gobble up???

For both things, you could re-do the quest to change your item. Although perhaps the more you bond with it, the stronger it gets, so changing it comes with a small downside, but not so down that people would stick with something they hate just for the power.

KHRI IDEAS.

I would like to see a Spy Khri tree. Stuff like Silence and Sensing. My two ideas...

If keeping Bonus Khri:
Sight+Sensing+Silence = Salience?
(Noun: salient; 1. (military) the part of the line of battle that projects closest to the enemy)
AKA, Astral Projection (but... not.)
Another possibility: It's a meta-Khri that grows off Sensing.

The thief focuses their mind so thoroughly on both seeing further and not being seen, that they temporarily eject their consciousness from their body, which remains safely invisible. While their body stays immobile in one spot, their consciousness is free to wander within a general line-of-sight up to 2 rooms away--one room if not using a cardinal direction. (If using a cardinal direction, the second room must be an off-shoot of the first. For example, they can sense north, and then northwest, north again, or northeast, but not north, then southwest. If they first sense southwest, then they can sense again either southwest, south, or west, but not southeast. Line of sight-ish!)

This ability allows a thief to more closely examine the objects and people in adjacent rooms. They can look at other characters, study objects, mark critters, etc. They cannot physically interact beyond these means.

Typing "Focus end" or "focus <Thief's name>" will return the thief to their body.


Khri Dash:

Move into a room. Move out of the room. You are not seen--at all. Failure to move out of the room reveals you as you bonk your face into something. Failure would be doing something, anything, not related to trying to exit the room. So if you type "climb stairs" and the command is "go stairs" (You can't climb that!), that does NOT count as a failure.

Doors and houses would be a challenge. I'd be a little okay counting opening doors as a failure to dash through. Being able to dash past someone skulking outside my house would be ideal, since Silence disables the "move <house>" command.


That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!