//City Shops not urban
I've only gotten one response yet, but it seems like this might NOT be intended and that we should fix it, so I'll look into adding a way for thieves to flag these rooms outside of bug reports, because really, please don't bug report that, we'd be buried in the reports.

Keeping the shops neutral would only hurt Thieves, since the bonus is on/off, right? Ranger bonus doesn't work that way, and Rangers have a way to mitigate most of the potential harm from hanging around town stealing through MON (which is getting even more mitigate-y with Naohhi's updates).

GENT

Fun ideas so far.

So, I guess I'll input some stuff I'd mentioned elsewhere before.

Thief-esque Dispel - mix in some anti-magic powder or something with our dirt abilities. Give us a chance against mage barriers and such that have so much more utility at the moment than we can penetrate.

Also, I've not researched much into TM skills and how they can COMPLETELY IGNORE stealth mechanics. I'm sure some of it's intended, but I feel like there isn't even a perception check on some? Perhaps we could have a khri help us anticipate spell targeting that engulfs a whole room, maybe even throw it into a khri combo like KHRI SECURE (where I've rarely, if ever, seen the trap detonation prevention).

I can almost assure you that it will never happen for crossbows. Maybe for sling...

Or bow, I forgot bows were also in SOI

Might want to take the (Offtopic) out of your actual suggestions. It was added to have a side discussion about something else that was going on. Just want to make sure that the nice GMs that are compiling lists don't skip over it.

>>Of course not, no one wants that. The "blast the entire room with fire" mechanics are kind of overkill fix that completely invalidate stealth with no recourse, no?

I know this is very unpopular in this folder, but the whole "blast the entire room with fire" and WATCH are predicated on the idea that if someone knows you're coming you've kinda failed at stealth. That logic doesn't hold up in some situations such as arena PvP, but it is the sort of thinking that went into the current iteration of the stealth system. "Like Ninja" actions are intentionally hard.

Does it stand revision? I dunno yet, I haven't given the stealth system much thought lately, TBH.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

Not-Quite-Passages:
Quick-travel within a town using Athletics and Thievery. Fail the check and end up in the wrong spot. Possible mechanical tie-in with the DIR system, but am aware DIR hasn't been fully expanded to my knowledge. Usage: Travel to any point that'd be in the DIR system (inns, shops, guilds, gathering spots, etc) similar to Genie's #Goto functionality. Perhaps at higher circles, being able to use it within a single province, so that you can quickly run to the furrier, the metal repair, the gem seller or locksmith, etc from a hunting ground.

---

"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer

"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh

<Does it stand revision? I dunno yet, I haven't given the stealth system much thought lately, TBH.

Well a lot of hiding / stealth type contests are in the supernatural realm because of thief abilities. Khri / Inviso. I'm not saying that if somebody was watching they shouldn't get some kind of boost, but I think everybody almost is on the same page that watch is pretty ridiculous. I think Gorteous actually mentioned a pretty good middle of the road option just a bit ago. It was basically allowing watch to stay, but only incurring the bonus of current watch on increments. So 25% of the total watch boost on first search, 25% second etc.. up to the total 100%

In my eyes the current bonus, which seems to be almost 200 ranks in some of the testing I've done, is a little much regardless.

I don't think it would be out of line for Thieves to get a way around "blast it with fire" period to be honest. To the tune of something that gives you a tremendous defensive bonus against attacks made against you if you are in stealth and someone doesn't have spot effect on you.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

Yeah it's something I'd rather see for stealth in general to be honest but I wouldn't be offended if Thieves got an improved version on top of it perhaps.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

The idea of not letting people know you're coming for them in a game where consent policy is a thing is also really funny to me, btw. Yeah, sure, open people, but they aren't the only ones getting into fights and I thought we didn't like encouraging gankers.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

>> Don't be surprised if three weeks from now, I pop out of nowhere with a backstab and get you.

Strategy wise this is cool. Policy wise this is almost never kosher. I think it's funny we have mechanics that essentially encourage you to break policy to be effective. Since WATCH is a PvP ability, it's worth discussing what's reasonable in the context of PvP and the policy surrounding it IMO, because it's yet another support in favor of just taking it out of the game or dramatically changing how it works at the least.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

>>I know this is very unpopular in this folder, but the whole "blast the entire room with fire" and WATCH are predicated on the idea that if someone knows you're coming you've kinda failed at stealth.

Well unfortunately one of them has 0 skill checks and the other has totally unfair skill checks. And both of those things neutralize our entire stealth skillset.I thought the whole notion of DR 3.0 was to make everything consistent. If I had 2 stupid broken abilities to nullify all magic casting you can be sure the magic guilds would be rerolling in droves. Sometimes realism needs to be ignore in favor of playability.

>"Like Ninja" actions are intentionally hard.

I really thought we were past this line of thinking in modern DR. Do we really need to overthink rank-vs-rank in a skill based game?

And no, this isn't the complaint thread, but WATCH is broken, everyone knows it, it was put into the game as a band-aid, and even that should have never happened in the first place.

I'll preface all this by saying I'd really like to see Backstab renamed to Sneak Attack or something like that and have it power/modify success on these new abilities/maneuvers.

// Mass binning and pawning
This is interesting.
Should you have a special Guild-given container for this?
Do you give it to a NPC or put it in the bin?
What should happen to the items that have gotten cold?
Should there be any change to rep reward?

>>Ideally, we should be able to hand everything to the NPC manning the bin or drop it into the bin proper. I don't see a need to require a special container. Then it just becomes one more thing to lug around. I personally don't care if there's a change to rep reward for them. For simplicity sake I'd like to see something like "well, since you have everything in bulk here, I'm not going through it. I'll let the boss know about all this."


// REvised Haven Guild
I advise using scripts for entry. It's what I did as a thief PC back in the day, because I could NEVER remember my Shard password, but my Haven one was enough of a phrase, I never forgot it (mukuthegay.)
What kind of ability could be written to make this easier, a contact guide, a tunnel? For lore reasons, the haven guild definitely won't change, and I'm unsure about the Shard one.

>>You shouldn't HAVE to script it. But, a contact guide would be pretty sweet. Would be cool to see contact guild have a guy take you to the proper guild. I like your guide idea.

// Disarm
Would this be related to an ambush or a maneuver everyone would have access to?
IF you don't hit the wrist, where should you hit?
What's the range of success?
What does a partial success look like?
When do you learn this?

>>I really don't think this should be any harder than a called shot honestly. If you hit with high success, the target can be disarmed. Now, what I'd REALLY love is if you clipped the LEFT ARM instead of the wrist, if you could keep someone from using shield. A failure would just be a normal called shot to the area. I'd say around 70-90th it would be learned.

//Ambushing garrotte
Should an ambush go for a kill or just maim? I think all? of the current ones aim at giving the target a disadvantage and the thief an advantage somehow, yes?
If we're going for multi-hit ambush, I'm thinking this should be appropriate for a high circle release?

This I would absolutely want as a kill shot/stamina drain. A failure just reduces stamina. Ideally I picture this as an attack with a "wire" that we have on us. I really don't want to have to lug around a bunch more guild specific items to perform this stuff. If it defaulted to bundling rope that would be pretty funny. So like, if it searched your inventory for rope, then did it if it absolutely MUST have a component. I'd say it could work similarly to CHOKE but give a nasty neck bleeder too.

//AoE not LT
So, unarmed martial arts/brawling aoe to anything engaged close enough? Are we talking "One Thousand Palms" Naruto-style stuff?
You mention stacked blades but you didn't want LT, those are LT. I'm afraid I'm not following, unless you're waffling a bit here?

E Honda from Street Fighter! lol I'd love to have a brawling check here and just be able to spin around taking cheap shots at the surrounding baddies.

//Contact deliver for distant cities
I believe we have some approved concepts for adjusting where contacts where that would enable them to work based on other factors besides strictly inside a city. This is again a project of a GM that doesn't have a lot of time currently, but it is something open on our table.

>>I'm really happy to hear this. Contacts need some serious love.

// Move forward with retreats
I think some creatures do this, yes? This might be appropriate to tack into a current khri. Which one makes the most sense to you?
I suggest khri, because there should be a way to turn it on/off when desired.

>>I'd like it if this just became an added feature of Shadowstep. So then it became an expedient advance/stalk type of maneuver that didn't break engagement.

//Tumbling using Athletics
I like this for both Thieves and Bards, actually, but with different results, because the guilds would likely be using the skills very differently.
How would tumbling differ from maneuvers?
When should you learn it?
Should this be a Dwillig thing along with ambushes?
Should each tumble be parsed out like ambushes or should you get a package?
If multiple, what does each do?

>>As posted in my original post, "I would limit whatever other guild to simply tumbling to the flank, while Thieves can tumble to the rear or flank. We should be able to do it from hiding with a hard stealth check akin to a stalking check. You could even work it into tactics by having the Thieves able to tumble behind their opponent and use an ambush it following for like a Thief combo. Tumbling commands could be Jump, Roll, Dive, and Flip." Ideally, hybrid evasion/athletics check more than maneuvers. I could absolutely see Dwillig teaching this. I'd rather see the tumbles be released at different times like SLIP. Maybe every 10 circles.

// Silent stowing/getting
This is already done with SLIP, which handles all of the restrictions like size and weight. I don't really see a reason to duplicate an existing system.

>>What I'm suggesting is totally different than slip. Basically let the other survival primes use SLIP as it is. As masters of stealth, let us ALWAYS use a stealth check to perform basic actions. So verbs like Stow, get, put, take, swap, kneel, stand have a hiding check. If you can hide on someone, they don't see you perform those actions. You just do it naturally stealthy. If you fail the check, they get normal messaging. Can provide a toggle if you want. AVOID !Stealth. If you want to avoid the check, use SLIP. This would just be akin to a freebie since you are SO used to the self consciousness of always being stealthy.

// Dual backstab
I think I'm gonna have to do some research on just how possible that would really be. In my head, it seems incredibly unwieldly, but I don't want to say no just yet.
What if the thief is using two large weapons?
What if there's a large weapon and a small weapon?

>>I would simply limit backstab to normal offhand mechanics. A thief can only use a Small Edge in the offhand currently. I don't see any reason to change that. Check offhand ranks to see if you can hit, if so, it's a BS double strike. I don't see any reason why BS was ever coded to limit to "small" weapons. There's no reason that you couldn't use a smaller template of large edged weapon. Having grown up around knives and weapons, it's perfectly viable that a person could wield something like DR's Cinqueda as a backstabbing weapon. Bowie knives have been used in hand to hand combat for ages, and they get pretty damned big lol. I'm not saying let me stab someone with a bastard sword, but we could easily restrict the template to allow large edge puncture templates (or add some). Medium edge has a penalty to stabbing, apply the same penalty above medium edge to large edged weapons. OR allow whatever weapon as long as you have the stats on the weapon and the stats on your character to use it like how stun/slash work now.

// Blinding
Would this be better to add into ambush sight? We could check for room enviros to decide if dirt is there, if a dirtbag (lol) isn't found on your character.

>>Totally fine with that.

//coldcock
I'm fairly sure there's already an ambush that does this. How does this differ?

>>By allowing the use of several other items primarily.

//Throat slit
Seen this one mentioned above slightly differently. I can see it as an ambush.
What happens on partial success?
Should it do enough damage to kill on a sufficiently lower-skilled target?

>>I'd love this as an ambush. Partial success defaults to a normal attack. Partial success gives a mod neck bleeder, with a full blown success you destroy the neck with a very profuse bleeder. I don't think it should be an "insta kill" on it's own, but that would be fun too. Like a finishing move.

//slash
Already exists as an ambush but I believe tends to use a blade. Could probably update to use blunt for your second mention -- if it doesn't already.

>>The idea would be to have the same effect it has now, but allow the use of blunts to kneecap and give the target a hobble instead of slicing the Achilles tendon

//Wound aggravation
You are a vicious little thing, hm? I could see this working on the same scale as TENDING ammo out of someone. Initial damage might be minor, with more skill, a bit harsher. What makes this Thief only?

>>Doesn't have to be thief only I suppose. Would be a pretty sweet addition to combat though. I was just thinking about dirty fighting more than anything.

// bind and gag
I.. for so many reasons beyond pvp, am gonna not touch this topic again.

>>Well it would only really work with the other systems I mentioned. lol

// contact Fence
Interesting. Would it be better if it was static in a guild hall?
At what circle do you get access?
How should your rep alter results?

>>How do you mean static? I'm thinking a new thief NPC in town that will take these things off your hands, and sell them perhaps on the islands where the pawn shop isn't crammed full of portable stoves. As for circle, probably 90th. + Rep should absolutely allow you to get more money.

// Contact stalk
Sell this to me in a way that wouldn't cause CE issues involving harassment and I'll engage you further.

>>All I'm really talking about is allowing you to use the familiar window like a WM does with their fams. Instead, you pay a gold or something to send a contact out of province and track someone down and follow them. But, it's not going to make much sense to see "a smelly elothean" in your hunting room. Hence the hiding thing, using YOUR skills to dictate your position in the guild and allow you to access a higher "level" contact that could be more stealthy. Give an atmo message or something now and then and allow a PC to search and point them, even kill them... I don't care. But it would be nice to be able to get "intel" through the guild more than "I saw someone 5 minutes ago near the vault."

//contact Fall guy and clean up
Is this maybe in line with the guard bribe or just an alternate to it?

>>This would could hand in hand with the bribery deal, or as an alternate. Up to you really. I like both ideas since I posted them.

// Contacts outside of cities
I made some comments on this above in my post.

// Fam and companion proof
This could probably be possible, though it would likely have a timer much like Aether Cloak, which I believe does a similar thing?
Should the item only work on Thieves?
How long should it work?
What's the cooldown?

>>I'm cool with a timer, you are putting it on your boots. Maybe after 20 minutes it wears off. Ideally, I'd like it to be a "thief shop" item. So thieves could control it. Maybe gate it's sale with circle. Why does it need a cooldown? It has a timer... re-apply when done. If a WM puts their fam on you the INSTANT you drop skulk, it's on you. I don't see why this should be different or matter.

// Lucky coin
I'm not sure justice would play with this well, but it's not out of the question. For mechanical reasons, you cannot remove the manacles a jail puts on you.. or uh, you kind of lose all of your stuff. Those that have experienced bugs with items not getting properly stripped from them know that your items don't really leave you (unless they get put into a sack), they just get moved.

>>I just thought it would be cool.

//Passive theft in town
I can't see anyone really liking this -- or me getting it approved -- as you've proposed it here, since it would involve loss of their money without the normal involvement of another PC.

>>I just viewed this as a way to actually MAKE "the bad side of town". Non thieves hanging in the vipers nest? Why wouldn't they be targets?

//Quests for stealing items
Probably better as a task system, but yes, I do think we could use some stealing tasks from GLs.

>>Cool

// Thief highway
So not actual rooms to go through, but very much like the "handwave" Ranger trails get? I mean,it's doable, but you might find that in setting it up, it would be quicker to manually run where you want to go, rather than sit through the RT I would be forced to attach to this within a city. Now, for a city like Aesry or Ratha, this might be much more useful than in Riverhaven, Therenborough, Shard, or Crossing.

>>With how fast travel already is, I'm kind of meh about this personally. But if it worked like ranger trails, I guess that would be ok. I don't much see the point personally. But cool for RP.

// removing SIGN's random chance
This is another thing I'm gonna suggest you hold onto for a future thread.

// Thief Quests
Are we talking mini quests within the game or full fledged paywall quests?

//Reputation
Access to rooms based on your rep could be doable.. or even access to additional shop rooms within the guild.
Not sure about warping, but rep-locked tunnels could be a thing.

>>Perhaps tie this into the tunnel thing?

// Thief comm
As in long distance? Isn't that what contact is for?

>>It would be nice to access some way to shoot a message to other thieves IG that there is someone hanging in the guild basically. Unlock range with circle similar to contacts, but allow the contacts to do the running. If you can have the contact to tell everyone, then you can tell everyone. I can see that getting annoying too though lol

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>Was re-reading posts, and realized I didn't respond to something that I felt wanted a response to it:

>// Thief highway
>So not actual rooms to go through, but very much like the "handwave" Ranger trails get? I mean,it's doable, but you might find that in setting it up, it would be quicker to manually run where you want to go, rather than sit through the RT I would be forced to attach to this within a city. Now, for a city like Aesry or Ratha, this might be much more useful than in Riverhaven, Therenborough, Shard, or Crossing.

>'Handwave' of Ranger trails is what I was trying to convey in the original post. Glad I wrote the second attempt to convey with a bit of a descriptor. There are times where being a Thief and being unseen, untouchable IS very important, so regardless of which city, it would be very COOL to ME (and I'd hope others would like it too). Though in Ratha, and Aesry, perhaps even in Therenborough if it's able to get through certain areas because of certain times. Also could see that same concept working well in Shard with their gate system. But even Crossing, I'd personally use it.

>Additional request within which, if it moved Athletics, and Possibly Stealth and/or Thievery in trickle manners. Because of manual slight of hand manipulations to allow one to slip and move into the 'Highway' unnoticed by others, and of course darting over buildings on the quick and up sloped roofs, and over alleyways QUICKLY is a show of athletic prowess.

One of the parts though that I thought it would differ from a trail is that it's more of a web. So each city has certain 'away points', these 'away points' are also entry points (bonus if you could enter into the web anywhere within the city), but you then chose your 'away point' and go to it, as opposed to a system where it is just back and forth between two ports, and you have to jump between the areas, one at a time. Hopefully I conveyed this additional concept to what I'd like to see the Thief highway become.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

Took your advice, from the WIKI -

<<The WATCH command gives an extremely potent Perception bonus versus a single other player, while at the same time significantly degrading perception against all other targets. WATCH can be used on a target regardless of their location, but does not provide any protection in the Backstab contest.
The amount of time WATCH can be maintained and the frequency it can be used is based on the user's Concentration.
WATCH also has a use in the logging profession. WATCH verb surveys the surrounding area for trees to CHOP down.>>

<<does not provide any protection in the Backstab contest.>>

Doesn't seem too OP but I haven't fought anyone my circle to test it.

In the context of arena fighting I can definitely see how this would suck... but then again, it would be uncharacteristic for a typical thief to fight toe to toe an in arena. Its the whole PvP violation problem again. We're kind of designed for advantages in a 'dirty fight' and have distinct disadvantages in a 'fair' fight.

How does ambush screen work vs perception? I don't have it yet. Is it a viable means of allowing you to hide from a WATCH? Maybe it SHOULD be. It seems to me successfully throwing a bunch of dirt in someone's eye would be a good aid in hiding from them.

Lastly... I REALLY like that announcement system to thieves that was talked about. I'm grateful for all the advice and it'd be great to meet up IC with the people who've helped. I read some past KHRI training suggestions helped alot.

So just spitballing at this point:

What if one could contest the watch, so your engaging in some type of arena, known contest, you know the other guy knows your approaching. And you do, some type of action, that is like, let's use RL it's like throwing a flare up when someone is using Infrared, something like that. So they have to be aware to know when they need to drop out of watch or re-engage watch. Perhaps if you just use it, and your not being watched, your that much easier to detect? What is actually happening in game, well it could be a Khri, but I'm wondering if this should be something developed for game-wide combat.

Alright so the next annoyance is the let's just blitz this area with fireballs, or a wall of fire, or well fire rain. Thieves in particular seem a bit not durable without Stealth. Maybe we could have some type of Khri maneuver, that we can engage when we believe we might have to deal with this that mitigates some of the danger to this. Now because we are throwing in concentration (or 'mindfulness' whatever that equivalent of Inner Fire for Thieves might be) we are not able to use something else.

Again just some spitballing, I would like something that allowed the Pendulum to swing with a smart fighting Thief, so they can have their time in the shade (I know some like the sun, but out here we like the shade).



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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

of course the disparity is compounded when you consider the multitude of ways perception is so easily trained. Even as survival tert, you can pretty much keep perception locked 100% of the time

Does nerve damage hinder perception in the same way it hinders stealth? It...probably should.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

Anyhow to get back on the suggestion train, can we permit stealing and marking on the hidden? if we can see them, no reason we can't sneak up behind them. Perhaps even make it a slightly more difficult contest