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Oh, this reminds me. Since we're on the topic of Thievery and improvements... any chance we could get the bin spam fixed by making binning only visible to ourselves? There's nothing quite like three thieves binning their hauls at the same time to highlight the crazy amount of scroll that DR can be capable of.
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ABSOLON
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 10:33 AM CDT
As usual i have nothing but criticism to contribute but regarding reputation. All other guilds are just running around willy-nilly grabbing anything that crosses their paths and somehow we get stuck with reputation. We don't need contacts that improve our rep, we either need to get rid of rep or extend it to include all guilds. Once every guild starts to get the same penalties (yes, penalties) then we can go from there.
I know that reputation is going away as much as thievery for circling requirement but i still wanted to add to that pile of complaints (not the first one to mention it).
When it comes to contacts as far as they're not directly involved in the process it seems like it could be a pretty good addition to thievery but as soon as you need them to boost your skill and what not, things start to get messy. More specifically i think the idea to have contacts mark items for us could have some potential. Not sure how that would work though. Usually contacts are pretty reluctant to leave city limits and that would be a pretty big limitation. Depends on the details.
I know that reputation is going away as much as thievery for circling requirement but i still wanted to add to that pile of complaints (not the first one to mention it).
When it comes to contacts as far as they're not directly involved in the process it seems like it could be a pretty good addition to thievery but as soon as you need them to boost your skill and what not, things start to get messy. More specifically i think the idea to have contacts mark items for us could have some potential. Not sure how that would work though. Usually contacts are pretty reluctant to leave city limits and that would be a pretty big limitation. Depends on the details.
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 10:39 AM CDT
I don't see how reputation is a bad thing, it's really easy to keep it positive or at least neutral.
Though, I would argue that since a bad reputation can be so hazardous to your character, then there should be more advantages to having a good reputation. AFAIK, it really doesn't offer anything to us aside from providing us with a larger gap if we do start slipping downwards. Though, I'd be hard-pressed to think of anything which would be a good trade for keeping rep at a good level. Best I can come up with is reputation based shops or extended contact abilities. Since, reasonably, contacts would like you more if the Guild leader liked you more. Right?
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
Though, I would argue that since a bad reputation can be so hazardous to your character, then there should be more advantages to having a good reputation. AFAIK, it really doesn't offer anything to us aside from providing us with a larger gap if we do start slipping downwards. Though, I'd be hard-pressed to think of anything which would be a good trade for keeping rep at a good level. Best I can come up with is reputation based shops or extended contact abilities. Since, reasonably, contacts would like you more if the Guild leader liked you more. Right?
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
DINERGRRL
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 10:56 AM CDT
In the young snake's territory, he's personally told me how highly he regards your work.
In the birds' territory, they love you almost as much as they do each other.
In the old serpent's territory, she's convinced you can't do any wrong.
In the pencil pusher's territory, rare for that one to give as high praise as he does you.
In the queen's territory, smart woman, to keep her Highness pleased.
That's all I've heard, now git!"
^_^
Also, our contacts need to work as quickly and efficiently as Trader hirelings, good lord.
In the birds' territory, they love you almost as much as they do each other.
In the old serpent's territory, she's convinced you can't do any wrong.
In the pencil pusher's territory, rare for that one to give as high praise as he does you.
In the queen's territory, smart woman, to keep her Highness pleased.
That's all I've heard, now git!"
^_^
Also, our contacts need to work as quickly and efficiently as Trader hirelings, good lord.
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 11:04 AM CDT
>Also, our contacts need to work as quickly and efficiently as Trader hirelings, good lord.
Yeah, I can totally see contacts becoming quicker/better and able to do more things based on reputation levels. That'd be a nice trade-off for keeping them all in the top levels. Or, at least, your local one in the top levels.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
Yeah, I can totally see contacts becoming quicker/better and able to do more things based on reputation levels. That'd be a nice trade-off for keeping them all in the top levels. Or, at least, your local one in the top levels.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 11:12 AM CDT
The issue is not with our ability to maintain reputation. It's easy, just bin everything but why should we bin everything when other guilds can pawn everything with no consequences. Somehow we're drawing attention to our guild but for every other guild that's not an issue? No other guild leader is bothered by the fact that a member of their guild is a hard core criminal. Yep, that makes sense. Thief guild thugs should go after all criminals, not just us.
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 11:15 AM CDT
>why should we bin everything when other guilds can pawn everything with no consequences.
Yeah, I don't know about giving other folks consequences. I could see a lot of backlash stemming from that. However, as I said, I could definitely see some systems put in that would give a solid reason to have good reps.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
Yeah, I don't know about giving other folks consequences. I could see a lot of backlash stemming from that. However, as I said, I could definitely see some systems put in that would give a solid reason to have good reps.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
HERALD42
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 11:17 AM CDT
In terms of contacts, I like the idea that we'd accumulate specialized ones with higher levels of rep with the guild. Some functional, and some like the specialists at the beginning of every heist movie. A few quick ideas:
Contact Burglar - Get you into a shop/area that locks at night
Contact Official - Get money to a local official loyal to the guild that'll "misplace" your record of theft once, say, a year.
Contact Fence - Send a contact to pawn an item in whatever pawn shop that gives the best price.
Contact Debt - Pay off debt in another jurisdiction
Contact Smuggler - Quick illicit travel to boltholes in long-distance locations. Chance of placing you in jail instead.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
Contact Burglar - Get you into a shop/area that locks at night
Contact Official - Get money to a local official loyal to the guild that'll "misplace" your record of theft once, say, a year.
Contact Fence - Send a contact to pawn an item in whatever pawn shop that gives the best price.
Contact Debt - Pay off debt in another jurisdiction
Contact Smuggler - Quick illicit travel to boltholes in long-distance locations. Chance of placing you in jail instead.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 11:38 AM CDT
<< I could definitely see some systems put in that would give a solid reason to have good reps
I agree and that's why i think rep should bottom out at neutral. No negative penalties such as getting locked out of the guild or getting a serious beat down from our buddies. I've seen enough mafia movies to know that if you do your time without squealing your family will throw you a party.
I agree and that's why i think rep should bottom out at neutral. No negative penalties such as getting locked out of the guild or getting a serious beat down from our buddies. I've seen enough mafia movies to know that if you do your time without squealing your family will throw you a party.
MASTER-MAHAN
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 01:44 PM CDT
Caught stealing? Social corruption. Go to the guild to get off the streets. Social corruption causes shop owners to pay extra scrutiny to you, because obviously. KIS,S.
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 05:54 PM CDT
Work orders for stealing: sounds great!
Contacts working on level: sounds great!
Reputation: Meh. I'm not big on secondary/tertiary systems.
Contacts working on level: sounds great!
Reputation: Meh. I'm not big on secondary/tertiary systems.
TFPETPATH
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 09:39 PM CDT
Could you spruce up the code for the extreme shop to make little instances within cities that people can break into? Like
1. You also see a drain pipe leading up to an unlocked window. Climbing contest to gain entry!
2. You see a gilded door with a ridiculously complicated lock. Locksmithing contest to gain entry!
Finding these could be gated based on your thievery, knowledge of passages, or being a WM and casting CL at random buildings.
Once you're in, you use thievery to case the place. In the sense of knowing where people hide their valuables. You get a limited number of searches before someone catches wise, so the better your thievery, the more likely you are to find the best loot. You could also use thievery to judge how perceptive guards might be. If there are multiple rooms, thievery may also give you a hint as to which area is safe to cool your jets for a moment. Think of those stealthy games you play on console where you get a radar that indicates the guards' field of view. Also traps. Traps everywhere. Thievery also helps you know that you should check for traps somewhere. Not disarm. No see. But have the common sense to say, you know what, people put their valuables here... so a trap over here would kill me dead.
So in this way, thievery becomes more than getting an item undetected like pickpocketing or shop lifting, but also about being street wise and understanding how to avoid all the risks that come with criminal activity.
1. You also see a drain pipe leading up to an unlocked window. Climbing contest to gain entry!
2. You see a gilded door with a ridiculously complicated lock. Locksmithing contest to gain entry!
Finding these could be gated based on your thievery, knowledge of passages, or being a WM and casting CL at random buildings.
Once you're in, you use thievery to case the place. In the sense of knowing where people hide their valuables. You get a limited number of searches before someone catches wise, so the better your thievery, the more likely you are to find the best loot. You could also use thievery to judge how perceptive guards might be. If there are multiple rooms, thievery may also give you a hint as to which area is safe to cool your jets for a moment. Think of those stealthy games you play on console where you get a radar that indicates the guards' field of view. Also traps. Traps everywhere. Thievery also helps you know that you should check for traps somewhere. Not disarm. No see. But have the common sense to say, you know what, people put their valuables here... so a trap over here would kill me dead.
So in this way, thievery becomes more than getting an item undetected like pickpocketing or shop lifting, but also about being street wise and understanding how to avoid all the risks that come with criminal activity.
TFPETPATH
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 09:40 PM CDT
And so, once a person completes a burglary activity, that building poofs. Like when someone makes a purchase in the extreme shop.
And then once you tune up the code for this very important purpose, use it to fix the extreme shop? ty.
And then once you tune up the code for this very important purpose, use it to fix the extreme shop? ty.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 10:17 PM CDT
I wish the extreme shop was in prime
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
BRYCOLE83
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 01:13 PM CDT
>> Not to sound like a complete jerk but I sometimes wonder if folks are just doing it wrong? Heh.
This is absolutely true. People aren't taking advantage of the skill. They aren't scoping out new shops, or new areas. There has often been advocating "lock in Crossing only!" which doesn't make any sense. Players aren't going to clan shops b/c 1) its not in the script and 2) they don't like hands being lopped off.
When I was training it, I would actively search out the best items in my range and find all the shops possible. I wouldn't rely on epedia because it wasn't often updated. There was lots of shops that were missed. And I pulled this off on a non-thief with NO mark. With mark... its 100x easier.
I really don't think stealing should be any easier to learn or less complex. We don't need less complexity. We need MORE. Players should need to figure things out for themselves, not have something be so easy they can download a 5 year old script and max out a skill.
I personally found it quite enjoyable going to each shop and figuring out what items were best to steal. It's part of the process.
>> The in-game timer was to minimize the impact of "pocket thieves." We seriously had people who would cycle through characters to steal for profit.
Seems a bit silly to hurt stealing as a whole to prevent this, when nothing is being done to combat HLC farming skins 24/7 and generating 100000x the profit compared to stealing from shops.
>> lowering the timer
I would be OK with loweing the timer. There is a lot of risk with stealing, so it's not like you can just start raking in unlimited cash. There was also a recent change with the justice system and fines where they skyrocket a lot faster if you stay in 1 area. If you lowered the timer then people would generate fines twice as fast and eventually need to either 1) stop stealing, 2) or move to a new area and steal. Then again the new fines good indirectly put a timer on stealing if they are too prohibitive.
>> earlier thievery
Not a big deal at all. Plenty of low level places/npcs to steal from.
>> overall
The skill does a lot already, esp for thieves. A lowered timer would be nice, but I wouldn't want the skill to be easier to learn then it is now. Anyone complaining about the skill is either doing it wrong, or just wants a script to set and forget. Neither of which should be good reasons for a change.
This is absolutely true. People aren't taking advantage of the skill. They aren't scoping out new shops, or new areas. There has often been advocating "lock in Crossing only!" which doesn't make any sense. Players aren't going to clan shops b/c 1) its not in the script and 2) they don't like hands being lopped off.
When I was training it, I would actively search out the best items in my range and find all the shops possible. I wouldn't rely on epedia because it wasn't often updated. There was lots of shops that were missed. And I pulled this off on a non-thief with NO mark. With mark... its 100x easier.
I really don't think stealing should be any easier to learn or less complex. We don't need less complexity. We need MORE. Players should need to figure things out for themselves, not have something be so easy they can download a 5 year old script and max out a skill.
I personally found it quite enjoyable going to each shop and figuring out what items were best to steal. It's part of the process.
>> The in-game timer was to minimize the impact of "pocket thieves." We seriously had people who would cycle through characters to steal for profit.
Seems a bit silly to hurt stealing as a whole to prevent this, when nothing is being done to combat HLC farming skins 24/7 and generating 100000x the profit compared to stealing from shops.
>> lowering the timer
I would be OK with loweing the timer. There is a lot of risk with stealing, so it's not like you can just start raking in unlimited cash. There was also a recent change with the justice system and fines where they skyrocket a lot faster if you stay in 1 area. If you lowered the timer then people would generate fines twice as fast and eventually need to either 1) stop stealing, 2) or move to a new area and steal. Then again the new fines good indirectly put a timer on stealing if they are too prohibitive.
>> earlier thievery
Not a big deal at all. Plenty of low level places/npcs to steal from.
>> overall
The skill does a lot already, esp for thieves. A lowered timer would be nice, but I wouldn't want the skill to be easier to learn then it is now. Anyone complaining about the skill is either doing it wrong, or just wants a script to set and forget. Neither of which should be good reasons for a change.
NINEVAH1
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 01:32 PM CDT
Why do you find it necessary to insult everyone in a thread about a guild you don't play?
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 02:08 PM CDT
<< Players aren't going to clan shops b/c 1) its not in the script and 2) they don't like hands being lopped off.
I've trained in Zoluren the entire time and not even once did i get my hands cut off. It's just too easy to avoid. Every time you can walk away. The thing with clans is that they only go up to about 500 ranks though.
<< We don't need less complexity. We need MORE.
In a way i can understand complexity but it should be possible to play this game without a single script. At least this is how i see it.
<< I wouldn't want the skill to be easier to learn then it is now
Thievery works as a defense against theft so i agree that it works in our advantage in that way. As it takes hard work to train a lot of people are put off by it. On the other hand i think there should be a better way to balance these things. Making skills harder to train isn't the answer.
I've trained in Zoluren the entire time and not even once did i get my hands cut off. It's just too easy to avoid. Every time you can walk away. The thing with clans is that they only go up to about 500 ranks though.
<< We don't need less complexity. We need MORE.
In a way i can understand complexity but it should be possible to play this game without a single script. At least this is how i see it.
<< I wouldn't want the skill to be easier to learn then it is now
Thievery works as a defense against theft so i agree that it works in our advantage in that way. As it takes hard work to train a lot of people are put off by it. On the other hand i think there should be a better way to balance these things. Making skills harder to train isn't the answer.
HERALD42
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 02:39 PM CDT
>>Players aren't going to clan shops b/c 1) its not in the script and 2) they don't like hands being lopped off.
It absolutely is in the script. Direct cut and paste:
# ClanOption:
# Would you like to steal from clans like Tiger Clan or Steel Claw
# Clan and risk getting your hand cut off? The script will do its
# best to get you healed and continue where you left off if so.
Clan shops cut off after a certain point.
>> I really don't think stealing should be any easier to learn or less complex. We don't need less complexity. We need MORE. Players should need to figure things out for themselves, not have something be so easy they can download a 5 year old script and max out a skill.
The whole reason the Progressive Stealing script became so popular is that finding the optimal item is very complicated, especially as a non-Thief. It's not easy to just sit there and math out looking at a shop catalog. Item weight appears to play a heavy role in the formula. And then you have to micromanage your rep, your chance of getting caught, and your chance of turning a profit.
>> Anyone complaining about the skill is either doing it wrong, or just wants a script to set and forget. Neither of which should be good reasons for a change.
Under the current model, setting up a "set and forget" script to shoplift to learn stealing is pretty much the only viable non-class way to learn stealing well. Even if you're not using Progressive Stealing, you really only need to change the items you're grabbing once every few months. What people are asking for are two things: QoL changes to make stealing not an extremely inconvenient, extremely costly skill to train; and QoL changes to identify the optimal item to steal without using Progressive Stealing and its generic calculations.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
It absolutely is in the script. Direct cut and paste:
# ClanOption:
# Would you like to steal from clans like Tiger Clan or Steel Claw
# Clan and risk getting your hand cut off? The script will do its
# best to get you healed and continue where you left off if so.
Clan shops cut off after a certain point.
>> I really don't think stealing should be any easier to learn or less complex. We don't need less complexity. We need MORE. Players should need to figure things out for themselves, not have something be so easy they can download a 5 year old script and max out a skill.
The whole reason the Progressive Stealing script became so popular is that finding the optimal item is very complicated, especially as a non-Thief. It's not easy to just sit there and math out looking at a shop catalog. Item weight appears to play a heavy role in the formula. And then you have to micromanage your rep, your chance of getting caught, and your chance of turning a profit.
>> Anyone complaining about the skill is either doing it wrong, or just wants a script to set and forget. Neither of which should be good reasons for a change.
Under the current model, setting up a "set and forget" script to shoplift to learn stealing is pretty much the only viable non-class way to learn stealing well. Even if you're not using Progressive Stealing, you really only need to change the items you're grabbing once every few months. What people are asking for are two things: QoL changes to make stealing not an extremely inconvenient, extremely costly skill to train; and QoL changes to identify the optimal item to steal without using Progressive Stealing and its generic calculations.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 05:45 PM CDT
I ran my stealing by hand. I stole from every shop which had something I could grab, and would scope out the ones where I was in a bad range (everything either too easy to teach or too hard to grab).
In crossings, around 170 ranks, I would hit up: all crossings (yes, all of them) stores, Tiger clan, Knife clan, wolf clan, and often make it, barely, to 33/34 mindstate, if I did all my grabs without hiding. Probably take me 30 minutes, and then there's an hour cooldown. 90 minutes for less than mindlocked, can't work any other skill, and 95% likely a net loss of money due to fines and gweth breakages. No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
So, basically, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
In crossings, around 170 ranks, I would hit up: all crossings (yes, all of them) stores, Tiger clan, Knife clan, wolf clan, and often make it, barely, to 33/34 mindstate, if I did all my grabs without hiding. Probably take me 30 minutes, and then there's an hour cooldown. 90 minutes for less than mindlocked, can't work any other skill, and 95% likely a net loss of money due to fines and gweth breakages. No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
So, basically, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 07:00 PM CDT
My forum experience was generally better once I realized I ignored him on accident. It just seemed silly to remove it after that.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
BRYCOLE83
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 08:19 PM CDT
>> Under the current model, setting up a "set and forget" script to shoplift to learn stealing is pretty much the only viable non-class way to learn stealing well. Even if you're not using Progressive Stealing, you really only need to change the items you're grabbing once every few months. What people are asking for are two things: QoL changes to make stealing not an extremely inconvenient, extremely costly skill to train; and QoL changes to identify the optimal item to steal without using Progressive Stealing and its generic calculations.
This is not even remotely true.
Your logic is baffling. You could say that about ANY skill. I collect rocks and it takes longer then stealing and trains less. I assess instruments and it takes longer and trains less.
>> you really only need to change the items you're grabbing once every few months
This is crazy. You can update quantity much faster then that. Unless you steal once a day.
>> QoL changes to make stealing not an extremely inconvenient, extremely costly skill to train; and QoL changes to identify the optimal item to steal without using Progressive Stealing and its generic calculations.
More craziness. The entire game is inconvenient when viewed through this lens. Why should stealing be easy mode?
>> So, basically, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
>> In crossings, around 170 ranks, I would hit up: all crossings (yes, all of them) stores, Tiger clan, Knife clan, wolf clan, and often make it, barely, to 33/34 mindstate, if I did all my grabs without hiding. Probably take me 30 minutes, and then there's an hour cooldown. 90 minutes for less than mindlocked, can't work any other skill, and 95% likely a net loss of money due to fines and gweth breakages. No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
Sounds like a pile of steaming dung. I can do Arthe/Crossing and hit 34/34 at 150 ranks. Why are you not hiding?
>> No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
... You refuse to leave the crossing and purposefully cut out a massive stealing area. And then complain that you can't mind lock stealing or that it's too hard?
>> 90 minutes for less than mindlocked, can't work any other skill, and 95% likely a net loss of money due to fines and gweth breakages.
On my non thief I was 100x more efficient then you and was rarely arrested. You seriously need to rethink your play style.
Stealing teaches hiding and thievery. It's a pretty damn good deal. And, you can use it to make money. And you can steal from players.
There isn't any other ways to learn hiding outside of combat and stealing is essentially a CvC tool. Let's not make it easier.
Thieves man, first it was khri magic, even though you learn magic the easiest/fastest in the game (akin to perform cut, better then bard cyclics), and now... make stealing easier to learn because ... It's too hard to do without a script? Really? Should we just stop the entire game?
LOCUTIS1
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 08:36 PM CDT
>>This is absolutely true. People aren't taking advantage of the skill. They aren't scoping out new shops, or new areas. There has often been advocating "lock in Crossing only!" which doesn't make any sense. Players aren't going to clan shops b/c 1) its not in the script and 2) they don't like hands being lopped off.
I think it was made quite clear by a lot of the posters, that some of the criticism we have is the amount of time needed to update scripts to get the most out of the skill. For some people it isn't a greater problem as others, cause they love the scripting part of the game. Imagine every 2 months or so having to spend time working out a good attacking combo, plus best weapons suited to gain skill from, then implementing that into a script. For some people it wouldn't bother them, others it would. All for the benefit of 1 skill. And this is only one point of contention that's been bought up.
>> No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
Arthe Dale doesn't close at night does it? or am i reading what was typed wrong?
With any changes to stealing... i just hope that people stealing in some way, can have a exp gain, and able to steal more coins per grab.
Rifkinn
I think it was made quite clear by a lot of the posters, that some of the criticism we have is the amount of time needed to update scripts to get the most out of the skill. For some people it isn't a greater problem as others, cause they love the scripting part of the game. Imagine every 2 months or so having to spend time working out a good attacking combo, plus best weapons suited to gain skill from, then implementing that into a script. For some people it wouldn't bother them, others it would. All for the benefit of 1 skill. And this is only one point of contention that's been bought up.
>> No, I didn't include arthe because the day/night cycle pisses me off.
Arthe Dale doesn't close at night does it? or am i reading what was typed wrong?
With any changes to stealing... i just hope that people stealing in some way, can have a exp gain, and able to steal more coins per grab.
Rifkinn
THAYET
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 08:47 PM CDT
Not all shops in Arthe close at night but several do.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 08:53 PM CDT
>Arthe Dale doesn't close at night does it?
A couple of the shops there do close at night, yes.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
A couple of the shops there do close at night, yes.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 09:22 PM CDT
>Why are you not hiding?
Because not hiding makes it harder. Which, in turn, trains stealing better. For a self professed expert, that's telling.
>You refuse to leave the crossing and purposefully cut out a massive stealing area. And then complain that you can't mind lock stealing or that it's too hard?
I wasn't aware Tiger clan, wolf clan, and knife clan are all in Crossings.
>On my non thief I was 100x more efficient then you and was rarely arrested. You seriously need to rethink your play style.
Sounds like a pile of steaming dung.
So, again, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
Because not hiding makes it harder. Which, in turn, trains stealing better. For a self professed expert, that's telling.
>You refuse to leave the crossing and purposefully cut out a massive stealing area. And then complain that you can't mind lock stealing or that it's too hard?
I wasn't aware Tiger clan, wolf clan, and knife clan are all in Crossings.
>On my non thief I was 100x more efficient then you and was rarely arrested. You seriously need to rethink your play style.
Sounds like a pile of steaming dung.
So, again, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
BRYCOLE83
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 11:50 PM CDT
>> So, again, nothing in BRYCOLE83's post is remotely accurate.
Many of my posts are highly accurate. You just have this huge chip on your shoulder.
>Why are you not hiding?
>> Because not hiding makes it harder. Which, in turn, trains stealing better. For a self professed expert, that's telling.
What are you talking about? I've never heard of that. Hiding should make it EASIER and thus you can steal harder items and a higher quantity of items. Even Ssra's post makes this statement
"2) Hide. It's always best to hide if you're looking to get the most out of your experience."
Are you going to say Ssra is wrong too?
>You refuse to leave the crossing and purposefully cut out a massive stealing area. And then complain that you can't mind lock stealing or that it's too hard?
>>> I wasn't aware Tiger clan, wolf clan, and knife clan are all in Crossings.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? Yes, those are all crossnig areas.
<<<< On my non thief I was 100x more efficient then you and was rarely arrested. You seriously need to rethink your play style.
>>>> Sounds like a pile of steaming dung.
I've taken a MM, necromancer, cleric, all to at least 300 stealing. Without mark. I took a thief to 200 stealing. You openly admit you don't use Arthe Dale and then somehow think you know stealing efficiency? Are you using Leth? That's a 10-15 second run. Wait, why am I helping you. You know everything.
>> I think it was made quite clear by a lot of the posters, that some of the criticism we have is the amount of time needed to update scripts to get the most out of the skill. For some people it isn't a greater problem as others, cause they love the scripting part of the game.
Ok, I want you to think really really hard on this. Maybe this is a GOOD THING. Maybe we need more skills that can't be easily scripted. This is absolutely the WORST idea to change a skill. And it's just silly. First, script difficulty is dependent upon the user, so if you use this as a basis for change, it will never be effective. Second, there is lots of skills that could be considered difficult to script, should they be changed too?
Many of my posts are highly accurate. You just have this huge chip on your shoulder.
>Why are you not hiding?
>> Because not hiding makes it harder. Which, in turn, trains stealing better. For a self professed expert, that's telling.
What are you talking about? I've never heard of that. Hiding should make it EASIER and thus you can steal harder items and a higher quantity of items. Even Ssra's post makes this statement
"2) Hide. It's always best to hide if you're looking to get the most out of your experience."
Are you going to say Ssra is wrong too?
>You refuse to leave the crossing and purposefully cut out a massive stealing area. And then complain that you can't mind lock stealing or that it's too hard?
>>> I wasn't aware Tiger clan, wolf clan, and knife clan are all in Crossings.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? Yes, those are all crossnig areas.
<<<< On my non thief I was 100x more efficient then you and was rarely arrested. You seriously need to rethink your play style.
>>>> Sounds like a pile of steaming dung.
I've taken a MM, necromancer, cleric, all to at least 300 stealing. Without mark. I took a thief to 200 stealing. You openly admit you don't use Arthe Dale and then somehow think you know stealing efficiency? Are you using Leth? That's a 10-15 second run. Wait, why am I helping you. You know everything.
>> I think it was made quite clear by a lot of the posters, that some of the criticism we have is the amount of time needed to update scripts to get the most out of the skill. For some people it isn't a greater problem as others, cause they love the scripting part of the game.
Ok, I want you to think really really hard on this. Maybe this is a GOOD THING. Maybe we need more skills that can't be easily scripted. This is absolutely the WORST idea to change a skill. And it's just silly. First, script difficulty is dependent upon the user, so if you use this as a basis for change, it will never be effective. Second, there is lots of skills that could be considered difficult to script, should they be changed too?
BRYCOLE83
Re: Thievery
10/02/2015 11:59 PM CDT
I'll add a constructive suggestion too that doesn't involve making stealing easier.
How about reworking the pawn system so stealing is actually worth doing before 500 ranks? I know people can make money doing Muspari runs but the rest of us are taking a loss. Esp. with the new fine system, stacking arrests is getting real expensive.
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 12:24 AM CDT
<<I know people can make money doing Muspari runs but the rest of us are taking a loss. Esp. with the new fine system, stacking arrests is getting real expensive.
I make money just fine in the Crossing before 500 ranks. Don't get caught as much and your fines will stay low.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I make money just fine in the Crossing before 500 ranks. Don't get caught as much and your fines will stay low.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
THAYET
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 12:30 AM CDT
Pawn shops could still use a revision, honestly. They're super broken the way they are right now.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 12:49 AM CDT
<< Are you being purposefully obtuse? Yes, those are all crossnig areas.
You're kidding, right? You can't be taken seriously if you can't even get the basic things right.
<< I've taken a MM, necromancer, cleric, all to at least 300 stealing.
You make it sound like 300 ranks is a massive achievement. We all know that the progressive script can take you there, even though it's pretty terrible. I might be mistaken but i think it's missing 6 shops in crossing alone. First take it to the unknown territory, 600-700 ranks at least (no scripts made by others, no alt thief, no data gathered on epedia) and then start talking about how much you know about thievery.
You're kidding, right? You can't be taken seriously if you can't even get the basic things right.
<< I've taken a MM, necromancer, cleric, all to at least 300 stealing.
You make it sound like 300 ranks is a massive achievement. We all know that the progressive script can take you there, even though it's pretty terrible. I might be mistaken but i think it's missing 6 shops in crossing alone. First take it to the unknown territory, 600-700 ranks at least (no scripts made by others, no alt thief, no data gathered on epedia) and then start talking about how much you know about thievery.
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 01:06 AM CDT
<<Pawn shops could still use a revision, honestly. They're super broken the way they are right now.
Yup. Even still, I manage to stay in the black over the course of my stealing runs. I'm not getting rich, mind you. But I certainly make enough to cover my fines.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Yup. Even still, I manage to stay in the black over the course of my stealing runs. I'm not getting rich, mind you. But I certainly make enough to cover my fines.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
HERALD42
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 05:34 AM CDT
>> I've taken a MM, necromancer, cleric, all to at least 300 stealing. Without mark. I took a thief to 200 stealing. You openly admit you don't use Arthe Dale and then somehow think you know stealing efficiency? Are you using Leth? That's a 10-15 second run. Wait, why am I helping you. You know everything.
Please, tell us all how you took all three of those to 300 Stealing so easily outside of the Crossing (admittedly, the shop revision is slowly making identifying difficulty a hint easier, since you can APP items to identify weight) without Mark, without using Progressive Stealing, without using a list someone else created, and without getting caught with any notable frequency, all the while making a profit. Tell us your magical formula to determine the optimal item to steal. And tell us your plan to get Stealing all the way to, say, 520, on any non-Thief, without using any of those tools and without any noticeable rate of getting caught.
We're all ears.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
Please, tell us all how you took all three of those to 300 Stealing so easily outside of the Crossing (admittedly, the shop revision is slowly making identifying difficulty a hint easier, since you can APP items to identify weight) without Mark, without using Progressive Stealing, without using a list someone else created, and without getting caught with any notable frequency, all the while making a profit. Tell us your magical formula to determine the optimal item to steal. And tell us your plan to get Stealing all the way to, say, 520, on any non-Thief, without using any of those tools and without any noticeable rate of getting caught.
We're all ears.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
DR-SSRA
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 06:35 AM CDT
Heh.
This is the suggestions folder not the arguments folder. Let's take the "I can steal better than you" conversation to social or conflicts.
The good stuff is getting queued behind all the rubbish.
Thanks.
/salute
-Ssra
This is the suggestions folder not the arguments folder. Let's take the "I can steal better than you" conversation to social or conflicts.
The good stuff is getting queued behind all the rubbish.
Thanks.
/salute
-Ssra
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
10/03/2015 07:21 AM CDT
>What are you talking about? I've never heard of that. Hiding should make it EASIER and thus you can steal harder items and a higher quantity of items. Even Ssra's post makes this statement
>"2) Hide. It's always best to hide if you're looking to get the most out of your experience."
>Are you going to say Ssra is wrong too?
Hiding while stealing offers hiding experience in addition to stealing experience. That's what his 'most out of your experience' comment means.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Stealing#Bonuses
Not hiding simply rewards more stealing experience (not monumentally more, but enough over the course of 6 steals per shop). Once I started doing my stealing runs without hiding, I started gaining 1-5 mindstates over the course of the same run stealing the same items (all of which were already easy). It's also a tiny bit faster, in that you're not spending 5+ more seconds per shop to hid/drop/drop/hid so if you're hitting 10-30 shops, can save you a couple minutes over a run.
>Are you being purposefully obtuse? Yes, those are all crossing areas.
...do you, perhaps, mean ZOLUREN areas? Because I don't know if you're aware, but there is a town, in game, called 'Rivercrossings', commonly just 'Crossings'. And Wolf, tiger, knife, are no more 'in' Crossings than Arthe, so it's not germane to the conversation (or particularly helpful) to say I 'refuse' to leave Crossings by not stealing in Arthe, when I've already made a much longer trip to Knife.
>"2) Hide. It's always best to hide if you're looking to get the most out of your experience."
>Are you going to say Ssra is wrong too?
Hiding while stealing offers hiding experience in addition to stealing experience. That's what his 'most out of your experience' comment means.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Stealing#Bonuses
Not hiding simply rewards more stealing experience (not monumentally more, but enough over the course of 6 steals per shop). Once I started doing my stealing runs without hiding, I started gaining 1-5 mindstates over the course of the same run stealing the same items (all of which were already easy). It's also a tiny bit faster, in that you're not spending 5+ more seconds per shop to hid/drop/drop/hid so if you're hitting 10-30 shops, can save you a couple minutes over a run.
>Are you being purposefully obtuse? Yes, those are all crossing areas.
...do you, perhaps, mean ZOLUREN areas? Because I don't know if you're aware, but there is a town, in game, called 'Rivercrossings', commonly just 'Crossings'. And Wolf, tiger, knife, are no more 'in' Crossings than Arthe, so it's not germane to the conversation (or particularly helpful) to say I 'refuse' to leave Crossings by not stealing in Arthe, when I've already made a much longer trip to Knife.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 08:54 AM CDT
What Ssra said. Address the points of a post without the snarking at each other.
Thank you.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
LOCUTIS1
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 09:58 AM CDT
So i know each character is going to be different. Even at the same circle two characters can still have different experience depending on stats. Though not much of a numbers guy so i don't know how different they can be.
But with stealing in the 700's i got 14/34 from Arthdale and crossing (after arthe i was at 6/34) and it took 12 mins. And a max grab of 4 per item
Leth, Crossing, Arthe, and Haven got me to 24/34 and it took 28 mins.
My thievery exp had drained to 0 by the time the hour timer was up.
This was done after i cleaned up and changed some of what i was stealing. There is 3 shops that i haven't found something that will teach me in Haven. that is the Clothes shop, the General store and Florist.
Plus i wasnt concerned with binning or pawning when choosing items, everything was chosen purely for exp gain.
I'm sure i can get a few more ranks, Leth i am sure i can get atleast 3-5 more ranks as i got caught on one pinch, and missed at least one shop i know.
Rifkinn
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 11:16 AM CDT
>Leth, Crossing, Arthe, and Haven got me to 24/34 and it took 28 mins.
Eh, that's sort of my problem with the skill, I think. 30 minutes to 71% of mindlock is pretty unreasonable to me. Especially since unlike crafting, magic, or combat, you've got hard-lock on training the skill (an hour timer) per shop, and the teaching is specific to single locations.
Eh, that's sort of my problem with the skill, I think. 30 minutes to 71% of mindlock is pretty unreasonable to me. Especially since unlike crafting, magic, or combat, you've got hard-lock on training the skill (an hour timer) per shop, and the teaching is specific to single locations.
BLUEFROG99
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 11:37 AM CDT
Note that hiding will take time, which causes your exp to sink in. Especially if you're doing it by hand rather than with scripting, and even more especially if you haven't reduced your hide RT to 2 seconds yet. Simply reporting mind states gained isn't as accurate as reporting exp gained.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 12:03 PM CDT
> Note that hiding will take time, which causes your exp to sink in. Especially if you're doing it by hand rather than with scripting, and even more especially if you haven't reduced your hide RT to 2 seconds yet. Simply reporting mind states gained isn't as accurate as reporting exp gained.
Does that matter with the hour timer? Even if you add RTs to delay the mindstates, you're still pulsing to clear well before you can start learning again. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but it definitely feels unique to thievery.
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery ::NUDGE::
10/03/2015 01:36 PM CDT
>Even if you add RTs to delay the mindstates, you're still pulsing to clear well before you can start learning again.
Yes and no. We're looking at learning per second, which means padded RT from stealing deflates that number. You're looking at learning from a set time (hour timer) which reduces to zero almost regardless of what you do. It's a matter of perspective, is all.
Yes and no. We're looking at learning per second, which means padded RT from stealing deflates that number. You're looking at learning from a set time (hour timer) which reduces to zero almost regardless of what you do. It's a matter of perspective, is all.
