>>Sometimes the alpha misses which is fine since "any attack can miss" but that seems to trigger the alpha cooldown. I can objectively see how this could be intended, but it's like a double or triple whammy, because you just wiffed, maybe got a longer RT, lost balance, and you know your next attack even if it lands is gonna be low damage.

Hmm, the cooldown should only apply on an actual hit due to the location of the cooldown code. Previously it was in the VERB action, now it is in the DAMAGE action (which isn't called when you miss). However, I can double-check it for you.

>> PvP

Against someone of identical skill, your to-hit is only like 20-30%. Now, backstab itself increases this to about 45-50%. Then the stealth bonus increases it some more. Using your attack skill buffs will boost it even more.

But while backstabbing you usually don't have super balance... maybe your opponent does, so that helps counter it out. During MY testing, with an 85% chance to hit I actually wiffed 7 out of 8 attempts. Goddang RND just hates you some days!

One option may be to use an Ambush to STUN or otherwise penalize the target, before going in for the Alpha Backstab. Then you'd get an assured to-hit cap.

>> ME/SE

These look to be fine. I don't see the problem with them. Doing 5-6% per hit every 2-3s is a good pace. You'd kill a man in a little less than a minute using just your basic attack. And a minute using basic stuff is the bar. This pretty well matches TM damage which is 10-11 seconds of TARGET time for a 15%-25% chunk of vitality.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>If the standard is 3-5x right now, maybe keep that for ME and up traditional LE weapons to 5-8x? Seems suitable considering the cap differences. (somewhat heavy vs very heavy puncture, not including slice/impact)

If you wanted to increase backstab damage that much, you would need to add some pretty obscene RT or cool off to it in order to preserve the balance Kodius is striving for. Id much rather have a Maneuver Assassinate the required SE and had some impressive damage capability and gate that by charge up time, cool down and RT. That way backstab can stay how it is as a balanced stealth attack and we can have a potential nova/alpha strike maneuver.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

I understand the concern regarding LE vs ME and Backstab. A few options:

1). Increase the BS RT for ME to be an extra 1-2 seconds. This would balance the DPS a bit.

2). Or give LE a 25% damage bonus when BSing.


As for the overall damage, 5% for a thrust, 10% for a backstab and 20% for an alpha backstab would appear to be plenty. Considering the additive damage bonus possible from Khri Eliminate, stats and T6 weapons.. and that is when we start getting into the unbalanced 1-2 hit kill territory.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Increasing BS RT for ME would not solve anything, the best alpha stabber would still be the one with the most damage, regardless of RT.

Except Kodius seems to be interested in DPS.

If increasing ME's RT makes its DPS equal to LE's DPS over time, then he's happy balance-wise.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Heh, you guys take this stuff too seriously...

DPS is a big component of game balance. Alpha strikes are more important for PvP, but still get my consideration. Hence why I mentioned BS + Eliminate + High Stats + T6 weapon = dead Pally :/

But there are only so many avenues we can take considering DR's age and legacy combat design. Small weapons tend to be faster. If someone BS's you and is then standing at melee for 5 seconds, it allows the defender more time to bash your brains out your ears.

Stuns also still need some tweaking as we transition into barrier work. I'd like to see LE have a bonus to stun duration as we pull back the numbers.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Since I'm not a thief expert, what exactly does Eliminate do?

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Well hold on. If a LE Backstab does 16% vitality, and a ME Backstab does 20% vitality, and a ME backstab has +2 seconds of RT, which is equivalent to 1 thrust (4% damage with a LE) - where is the imbalance?

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

That may be your opinion, but it is not supported by the math. LE attacks do not pierce armor as well as ME attacks, so it all depends on your target. LE is likely best for lightly armored targets and ME for heavier armored targets.

Currently harder hitting attacks have a higher chance to stun and stun for a longer duration. I think adding 1 second to a ME backstab and increasing the LE backstab stun chance might be a good start to see where things are.

Also, it appears that Eliminate's armor-ignore does not work on critters. So this may explain why your Eliminate Backstabs are overpowered against players, and useless on critters.

No attack should completely ignore armor. Even cloth reduces the incoming damage by about 50%.. so the 20% hit becomes 40-50% quite easily. And with that strong of a hit the target is likely stunned and a follow up backstab seals the deal. We'll have to discuss how to fix it for critters and modify it for players. I don't want it to lose its edge as it seems like a unique ability.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>LE attacks do not pierce armor as well as ME attacks

I can't help but always think it should be the other way around, and I don't mean just for backstab. I mean for every single weapon in the game.

Lighter Weapons = Faster but less raw damage but with more Armor/Barrier penetration.
Heavier Weapons = Slower but more raw Damage, but less Armor/Barrier penetration.

>Currently harder hitting attacks have a higher chance to stun and stun for a longer duration. I think adding 1 second to a ME backstab and increasing the LE backstab stun chance might be a good start to see where things are.

Honestly I kinda wish stuns would just die. I hate stuns, I'm not ever going to make a weapon choice based on its capability to stun.
Especially now that stuns seem to make only a terribly small difference, that is at least for anyone not casting one of a few obviously broken spells.

How about something like leaving ME at 3, and instead increasing the chance that LE gets its -1 RT and maybe a bit of a damage increase (or the other stuff I mentioned).

I feel like if any of the backstabbing gets any slower than it already is... I'm just going to end up doing the alpha and then spam jab.

That can't be what we want.

LE should do more damage.

In the real world I've never been able to backstab anyone with a 2 foot sword anyway - its ridiculously cumbersome. But most importantly, and it may seem counter intuitive, but the efficacy of stabbing with a 2 foot sword (avg. ME) is really hindered by lifting, drawing back, and thrusting, sometimes at a moving target - its HARD TO DO - take it from me. And yes I did my time.

LEs are MUCH more effective. The damage is in the depth of the incision (MEs are so difficult to stab with the incision is actually a lot more shallow than you might think, and definitely a lot more shallow than a heavy LE).

So let's be realistic. And let's give SOMEONE a reason to use LE - thieves. Damage - damage - damage - damage.

Not even kidding.

Srs.

about.

this.

Do it.

>The current armor protection/absorb model is weird. It didn't work then, and it certainly doesn't work too well now. Might need to add an actual armor penetration mechanic that each system can call. This is why we can't have cyclics and DoTs and multishot TM that work - their lower damage just get nullified by the armor's protection.

Yep. And this would hugely benefit LT Multi-throw blades, LT Throwing Daggers, and LE weapons in general.

>other Guilds complaining BS is overpowered

Two things:

1) A lot of this was in 3.1 test... 3.1 live is not the same. In test alpha strike was a lot more accuracte and 7x damage. Now its much less accurate and 3-5x damage. Eliminate is a different sorry, trouble is the victim who already hates being "ganked" doesn't realize how many commands and timing and skill checks and RNG rolls ACTUALLY went into them getting pwned. All they see is the end result.

2) The rest of the complaints are due to how wildly different the command (BACKSTAB) performs at different circles and against different guilds (with different Prime/Secondary/Terts).
It's the same thing that was happening with LT complaints. At some circles it over-performs like crazy, but then at some point armor and barriers become too powerful.

>In other words, a successful backstab gets to ignore armor + deal bonus damage + have extra accuracy, but you can't really just stalk/backstab/stalk/backstab/stalk/backstab all day.

In order for that to make any sort of sense backstab exp would have to be turned up by a large amount. But, other than that, I don't really see a problem with that approach.

---

A Moon Mage bars your way, whispering "I am afraid you are not on the list I have Kasto. Maybe some other time?"

>Eliminate is a different sorry, trouble is the victim who already hates being "ganked" doesn't realize how many commands and timing and skill checks and RNG rolls ACTUALLY went into them getting pwned. All they see is the end result.

I don't mind being ganked by someone I can't touch, and I think I told you as much in test. However, I really don't like abilities that completely nullify someone's skill set advantage or don't give someone a fair chance at fighting back. That includes not just eliminate, but other stuff like the watch verb, which may or may not still be a problem -- I don't know because I stopped using it a long time ago.

I also appreciate the prep that goes into debilitating someone just right to get one, maybe two good hits. People don't realize how hard it is sometimes to land and use a shatter on a moving target or someone with stun-hiders or autohide, someone with reforming invisibility, etc. as a survival tert character. Even perfectly executed, I've never come remotely close to killing anyone, even anyone far below my paladin, in one hit. I mean, I've had shatter-throws critically miss on even matches more often than I care to admit. I'm guessing that's why people don't still complain about it.

Kodius, I tested BS yesterday on my thief against a relatively closely matched moon mage buddy with no barriers up. Backstabs missed noticeably less than thrusts but the damage didn't feel appropriate. I felt like non-alpha backstabs should be doing at least 50% more damage than they're currently doing. I feel like backstab should make ME hit like a very balanced, very heavy 2-hander for its alpha strike, but it didn't feel close to that. Bear in mind, my thief is low to mid level (300-400 skill range) not 150++ circle. My sample size wasn't large, maybe 20 or 30 backstabs, but there was so little variance that I didn't feel like I needed to sample more.

> What if backstab used the same cooldown mechanics as maneuver + some other restrictions, like first strike? IIRC, a couple of the maneuvers also ignore armor, but they're offset by having 60 second cooldowns.

> In other words, a successful backstab gets to ignore armor + deal bonus damage + have extra accuracy, but you can't really just stalk/backstab/stalk/backstab/stalk/backstab all day.

I am actually impressed you came up with this, PB. The idea is genuinely good, i would fully support a change of this sort. The ability would also have to bypass barriers, or anyone with any kind of barrier up would just eat the entire attack and giggle at me for my failed attempt.

>>What if backstab used the same cooldown mechanics as maneuver + some other restrictions, like first strike? IIRC, a couple of the maneuvers also ignore armor, but they're offset by having 60 second cooldowns.

I really don't like this idea.

Here's my two cents for whatever its worth.

Backstab is in a rough spot because of all the things its trying to do. Taken one at a time none of the effects are too out of whack, but the combo makes for a frustrating ability to be on the receiving end of.

Alpha strike modifier - 5x damage. As an idea, for PVP (PvE I honestly couldn't care less about a thief 2-3 shotting critters all day), seems pretty fine considering. The thief has to engage, get to melee, and make the attack. Passing all those rolls should offer a suitable reward, and a large bonus to damage for all the checks involved seems fine.

Defense skipping - Skipping Parry/Shield. On its own, I can see a place for this type of effect. However, in the current combat model of requiring two defenses, adding this effect to anything just seems like insult to injury to survival terts. It relegates the defender to a snake eyes chance of the attack not connecting.

Balance boosting/low defensive modifier - For training/PVE, this makes sense. Its a required to circle skill, and combined with a healthy hiding req a thief is going to be BSing at melee, and having a large defensive hit/balance hit means the thief is being punished for training. PVP it only adds to the defenders issues of trying to muster a counterattack, especially post stun with a balance hit.

Adding those together and things start to feel like a runaway train. Throw in Eliminate and you've a recipe for exactly what you have here, non-thieves screaming the ability is overpowered, thieves getting extremely frustrated to see nerfs to an ability thats silly in a certain situation.

Personally - I don't know what the exact answer is. Making it a maneuver type ability with a cooldown seems like a large change that would cause a lot of hiccups to the thief community. Knee-capping the ability because of synergistic effects with other abilities makes it seem lackluster at best used on its own. Perhaps there's a middle ground with the Alpha strike and a healthy accuracy buff, without the massive stacking defender penalties? Or, could changing eliminate go a long way to fixing the woes?

I don't know what the final answer should be, but I DO feel the move should always have some teeth, as its been the Go-To move for generations of thieves and seems almost iconic at this point of DR.

Samsaren

Just in case it helps, heres my running log of backstab numbers.

All against the same critter, all with the same weapon, all with the same buffs.

____________

Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the arthelun cabalist is something that you'd kill quickly.
If you attacked with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the arthelun cabalist, you believe she has a low chance of stopping your attack (4/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.

_____________


50 Backstabs in 3.0 Prime:
22,12,5,7,14,12,12,9,11,13,11,16,13,9,10,14,17,9,14,6,10,9,17,7,9,15,11,6,5,9,11,7,11,7,11,11,22,9,8,7,9,13,11,17,10,14,11,13,10,5
_________

50 Backstabs in 3.1 Test, before autostance was added:
11,6,9,12,8,11,9,12,13,11,7,10,17,18,8,10,6,13,7,12,9,11,11,13,7,15,5,14,14,12,11,9,11,7,10,8,9,7,14,9,9,10,12,9,10,8,9,16,9,11
_________

50 Backstabs in 3.1 Test, after autostance was added:
5,4,6,3,7,4,4,5,4,4,5,4,4,3,3,6,6,5,3,6,5,7,7,4,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,6,6,5,4,3,4,5,4,5,5,5,5,4,3,3,5,5,4,5

_________

50 Backstabs in 3.1 Test, after Backstab Update 01/18/2014 07:08 PM CST:
8,8,8,8,8,10,8,10,10,5,8,13,8,11,7,11,4,7,8,7,9,7,8,7,4,11,7,11,8,13,8,5,10,10,8,10,8,8,8,8,11,8,9,9,7,10,8,8,11,7
_________

50 Backstabs in 3.1 Prime just after 3.1 launch
7,7,7,5,8,9,7,9,7,5,3,4,8,10,5,7,9,10,8,8,7,9,8,9,7,6,7,7,7,8,7,7,10,8,7,5,10,7,6,9,8,10,7,5,7,7,,5,7,7,4

_________

50 Backstabs in 3.1 Prime after Backstab Tweaks on 05/19/2014 02:18 AM CDT
5,5,6,6,9,6,6,7,9,6,5,6,5,7,8,8,7,7,7,8,8,9,8,6,8,8,5,6,6,9,5,5,6,6,9,5,6,6,9,6,6,7,9,6,5,6,5,7,8,8

_________

50 Backstabs 5/23/2014 in 3.1 Prime
7,7,7,8,7,7,7,7,7,9,6,6,8,9,6,6,7,5,5,9,6,6,6,7,5,6,6,6,7,7,6,6,6,5,6,6,7,7,8,7,7,5,8,5,8,5,8,5,4,7

Well if you look at my last two tests there its like I'm not even getting an alpha strike anymore, unless you're honestly saying a hard hit (5/22) is a valid alpha strike... how is that 3-5x a thrust? It's like 1.5x a thrust.

Most of the time my alpha strike is less damage than the successive hits, even to different body parts.

I get that there is going to be a discrepancy in the damage messaging due to vitality, but is it really that much?

>>I get that there is going to be a discrepancy in the damage messaging due to vitality, but is it really that much?

Yes, vitality plays a very large role in damage messaging.

A hard hit may be a valid alpha strike if you rolled poor on the damage.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

One last little data dump and I'll stop for a while.

For me I'm seeing:

45-51 seconds using just thrust to kill. Something like 15-17 thrusts.

For backstab, yes it's 6-7 to kill, which for just the backstab is 18-21 seconds, but its also another 12-14 to hide or 18-21 to stalk each time.

So that's 45-51 seconds V.S. 36-42.

THRUST using just one skill. BACKSTAB using three.

But I guess that is a 18-20% improvement so I guess that is reasonable? I dunno it's hard for me to look at it that way I guess.

Of course there's other factors to using backstab like if you get spotted and need to re-hide/stalk/run away/wait out the spot effect, or whiff on a backstab because then its effectively 5-6 seconds of no damage compared to missing a thrust, which is only 3 seconds of no damage.