I wouldn't mind seeing backstab as a specific req. It makes sense to me that guilds would be required to have a certain proficiency in their signature skill.

Kaxis

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What exactly is a Kaxis? -- Dyamond

>Rangers have a soft req.

If Scouting wasn't a soft req, they'd need 9 out of 10 survivals. It looks like all 3 survival Primes get to pick 2 survivals to ignore (for req purposes) and have to train the rest. Necros are 7/9 and Ranger/Thief are 8/10.

>Barbarians and expertise
>Bards and bardic lore
>Thieves and backstab

Bards are going to have a Bardic Lore req. They haven't mentioned Barbs and expertise. They might get a pass on it with what's going down in Barbs+Supernatural skillset. I don't play a Barb, so I'm not monitoring it heavily.

If anything, the Ranger Scouting req. should be support for making Backstab a soft req.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

Double post.

>>>I see no mention of Expertise. The other guild only skills (including the new ones like Theurgy and Summoning) have soft requirements. Does the concept still exist, and will it be released with 3.0?
>It does exist, but the abilities that will use/train it won't be available until after X3 releases. Once they get released, the req will be instantiated and gradfathering will occur.
-Socharis, on Barb reqs.

So that will leave Thieves as the sole guild with no Guild-only skill as a coded requirement (only an implied requirement)

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>the weapon reqs seem a bit low for my taste, especially the secondary weapon req.

I have to say this surprised me too. Seeing that some Thieves would need grandfathering in their primary weapon also came as a shock, but I suppose not everyone is combat heavy (which by the way is fine, variety is the spice of life).

>Backstab

Yeah, I couldn't care less if it was a hard req but if it is please for the sake of our sanity make it trainable at a decent rate.

<<It doesn't do anything unique - it is just a Small Edged maneuver modified by Stealth. Perhaps I'm being narrow-minded; I just don't see how this should remain a skill any longer?>>

It's a good question. Personally, my curiosity is up and I'm interested in seeing where Team Survival goes with backstab.

BUT if they wanted to make Locksmithing our signature skill that no other guild could learn or keep current ranks in I'd be happy with that too :)

Kaxis

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What exactly is a Kaxis? -- Dyamond

>Isn't Backstabbing the epitome of such a skill? I don't see how a skill named "Backstabbing" could be expanded upon. It doesn't do anything unique - it is just a Small Edged maneuver modified by Stealth. Perhaps I'm being narrow-minded; I just don't see how this should remain a skill any longer?

Isn't it used in SNIPE as well? I swear there was a GM post on that.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

Only thing I could find was this:

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Primary_Skillset_for_damage_-_5/27/2009_-_18:31:15

Not terribly relevant though.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

>>I was hoping BS would get some long=needed love from the new era of GMs. Looks like I'll have to keep waiting. At least making it a "soft" requirement would promise some sort of future development.

I'm sorry that BS is no longer ridiculously unbalanced?

It's still a good skill. Learning could be fixed, I could see some other applications of it too.

>>I thought that one of the goals of Skills 3.0 was to eliminate, combine or rename skills that were too limited in scope. Isn't Backstabbing the epitome of such a skill? I don't see how a skill named "Backstabbing" could be expanded upon. It doesn't do anything unique - it is just a Small Edged maneuver modified by Stealth. Perhaps I'm being narrow-minded; I just don't see how this should remain a skill any longer?

I don't disagree with you - Backstab and Scouting kind of suffer from the same problem, honestly. The reason we're not revising them right now is that they're guild-specific skills, so the audience is much smaller, and we haven't done a lot of ideation around them at this point. Backstab doesn't have a soft req because it's too narrow right now and would force thieves into a very specific niche (requiring skill in Small Edge, specifically), but if we do decide to add one later we'll follow the same grandfathering procedures as stated above.

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"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

Rename backstab as assassination and make it incorporate more stealth killing methods. Backstabbing with small blades, strangling with piano wire (brawling, I guess), sniping, all the ambush maneuvers, etc.

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hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down. - GERSTEINJ2

Fluting.

Or how about calling it 'focus' or something, or will it never be rolled in to khri/etc. as the other guild specific skills are? I know the 'backstab' skill was said to never be mandatory since it requires also training a specific skill, but if it's renamed and reworked?

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

Call it what it is? Opportunism.

You've just gained a new rank in the Nothing Personal, Just Business skill.

Kaxis

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>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.

You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."

Skullduggery

skull·dug·ger·y or skul·dug·ger·y (skl-dg-r)
n. pl. skull·dug·ger·ies or skul·dug·ger·ries
Crafty deception or trickery or an instance of it.

I like wetwork too... but it feels too modern, or something.

Guile

Artfulness

Chicanery

Artifice

Deceit/Deception

Dissemblance

Dissimulation

Duplicity

Ruse

Treachery/Trickery

Wiliness

Subterfuge

Machination

Savvy

Trying to think of words which could widen the scope for the skill as hinted at earlier.

All the same to me, but I'd go for "Dirty Tricks", seeing as it covers BS, ambushes, throwing dirt into the eyes, etc.

Most of the other name ideas I think are too narrow in scope (Ambushing, for example), slide too far towards Thievery, or just don't really "seem right"

Besides, it is a Guild-only skill, not like we have to worry what non-Thieves care it's named.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>>I think DR has influenced the connotation of backstab for people. It generally has a bit broader meaning than the literal.

Not really. The word "backstab" means more, yes, but within fantasy/fighting game tropes, Backstab is very specific in function. See: Dungeons & Dragons, Baldur's Gate, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Gladius, etc. They all involve sneaking unseen up behind a critter and using a dagger attack to score an obscene damage multiplier.

Obviously, DR can and often does evolve beyond generic fantasy tropes, so Backstab/Deception/Rapacity could be more than this. Just pointing out it's not unique to DR, that backstab is very specific.

>>Socharis, on the topic of expanding and developing Backstab

There are some excellent ideas in this thread but to be honest I'm not prepared to start focusing on this topic yet. We should definitely have this discussion but it's not in scope at this very moment.

Though I really like the word 'Guile'.

Let's shelve this discussion until later on when I can give it the attention it deserves.

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"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

It look like im a little late for the discussion but after having some time to analyze i had a few thoughts if anyone cares to agree or disagree.

First of all, it seems that im the only one who is a bit concerned about the new weapon requirements. I have to say that the primary weapon requirement seems a bit steep to go with the nature and ways of our guild. I dont exactly know about the new requirements for all other guilds but as far as the current ones go, it seems that our weapon will be in line with Barbarian armor requirements (320 vs 290 at level 80). Which means that we will be spending about as much time in combat as Barbarians now. Although, i suppose i cant really complain much, since you can never have enough weapon skill in this game.

Secondly, after all the skill merging, we will be left with only 10 survival skills to choose from and the list really does not get any more attractive as it currently is.

If im not missing anything - Evasion, Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Locksmithing, Thievery, First Aid, Outdoorsmanship, Backstab, Skinning.

We will be out of 2 or 3 skills too choose from and still require the same amount of training in 8 survivals. The ones that are being removed have to be replaced by something that a Ranger would train.

What is the difference between us and the rangers anyway?

Also with the "Multi Opponent" skill being moved into "Defending", under a tertiary skillset for us, im afraid that we are going to have difficult time getting the full potential out of combat training anymore.

Edit: confused Defending with Tactics

Defol