Heyo,

Heading into the Lion's den here. A quick update and I need some suggestions.

Update-

We are working on a Trapping system, for those of you who do not read the Ranger boards Trapping is slated to be released in 2 stages. The first being exterminating trap sold at certain shops. The second stage will be "man traps," I know Solomon had some things in mind for your guild for this stage of the system but I wanted to give you a heads up. The animal part of trapping will be based on a lot of things and mostly done with the first part of the system, exterminating traps. Then really cool stuff for the second stage.

The design and functional specs for the first part of the system have been signed off by Maelona. Right now the only GM working on Trapping is GM Taiga then Paklin and I will be moving on to it some time late summer. I need to get a design spec together for the second part. So...

Input Needed-

There was a bit of an uproar about harvesting trap parts, mostly this was because of my idea to use those trap parts with the "Man Traps," this is still an option. I really want to see a trip line with two gas charges attached at the ends. <grin> We are thinking that certain Guild leaders will teach certain trap mechanics. I don't profess to be a master on your guild's background so I need input on that. If you do not have a full team in place by the time we get to the second stage it will be Paklin and I working on your releases so I figured I would ask. I went thru most of this with Rangers earlier this year, so I would appreciate the Rangers sitting out this thread.

1- Who would be more likely to teach the mechanics of trapping?

2- What specific traps would you like to see?

3- Can harvested parts from boxes be directly used with man traps or is there another stage of work on them and how do you see that working?

If there is a question you don't feel like answering here, feel free to email me. Once, I get some feedback I'll try to grab Shakahn and pick his brain on what ya posted. After that it is up to Maelona and Rigby to decide who gets what and at what appropriate skill level.

Lastly, it needs to be said that I know a lot of folks here don't care for me and that is somewhat understandable. However behind the banter I'm a GM and I enjoy developing for DragonRealms, for the most part it hasn't been a lot of things for your guild. As fate would have it we are at that point. Lets try to get thru this. If you really feel the need to bash me I'll understand <g> but I have a small request, please don't turn this thread into a "The Top 10 ways I dream of Jent Dying" thread. Beat me up in an appropriate folder, I promise to even read them. I just like having a clean thread to look back on when I am working on design stuff based on player feedback.

Lets see how this goes.

Jent



**************************************
Some people take this game too seriously; they need to take a step back sometimes. -- Blasword. circa 2003

I hope this comes across sounding well...But this is something I'm really concerned with. As a lot of skills (lores) are being broken down to more specific tasks, I feel if you create this ability off the "Disarm traps" skill, you'll be moving backwards on that.

I'm noe against grandfasthering rangers or whatever else it takes...But I don't think rabbit snares, or "man traps" have anything to do with the mechanics involved in disarming boxes or any of the other thiefly uses for it. So my main question is...Will you consider making a new skill for this (Trapping)?

It just seems counter productive to have fiddling with naptha boxes teach you to noose a deer, while moving way from having embroidering a cloak teach you to forge a blade better. So is that something that could be considered?

Addle

>>I'm noe against grandfasthering rangers or whatever else it takes...But I don't think rabbit snares, or "man traps" have anything to do with the mechanics involved in disarming boxes or any of the other thiefly uses for it. So my main question is...Will you consider making a new skill for this (Trapping)?<<

Actually that's what they're gonna do Addle, no more "Disarm Traps" skill, it'll be renamed 'Traps'. Learnable thiefy ways using boxes, or ranger ways snaring animals. Two very different approaches to learning a very generalized skill, which as you said, i thought they were getting away from it.


B

<<The Top 10 ways to kill Jent with a 'Man-trap'>>

now That's the way to get our creative juices working!

<G>

seriously, I would suggest not using one of our guild GLs for this at all. I would suggest having Fade teach it.

Why?

1.He's damn hard to get to. Around here we take pride in doing things the hard way-the Thief way.

2.He already is involved in another guilds "quest". He should have some tie-in with us as well.

3.Who better to know about traps than someone with an army of thugs working for him...which drop boxes, etc. And the place itself looks like one big booby trap.... climb wall .... 10 thugs shoot at you with their crossbows...< you have just been struck down>....


Schvartz






~ The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which hath been is that
which shall be,
And that which hath been done is that
which shall be done;
And there is nothing new under the sun.

>>3-Can harvested parts from boxes be directly used with man traps or is there another stage of work on them and how do you see that working?<<

I can see them being used, yes. The problem comes then, where are Rangers going to get them? Buy them from Thieves? Are you intending that Rangers get access to HARVEST? If they do, what happens to Thieves' perks from Disarm? Poof, gone? What do we get other than "sloppy seconds" in Snares/Traps which we should be getting whether or not Rangers get access to Harvest if 'Man-Traps' is an integral part of the system?

As I've said a dozen times and will continue to say, if Rangers want to be good at everything (generalizing), then they get to specialize in nothing. Its one or the other, you CANNOT do both. Thieves specialize in a few limited areas, Stealth, Stealing, Disarm/Locks, Stealth attacks. That's about it. Why should Rangers get access to everything we've specialized in, in regards to Disarm, when they have not specialized and they have generalized.

Tam
-You've gained a new rank in your ability to steal.
-There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
-The sky is not falling.

oh, and the components would have some sort of "something" done with them to make them a bit "different" inbetween the source getting them and their resale for profit...obviously the store-guy does SOMETHING with his spare time...


~ The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which hath been is that
which shall be,
And that which hath been done is that
which shall be done;
And there is nothing new under the sun.

<<oh, and the components would have some sort of "something" done with them to make them a bit "different" inbetween the source getting them and their resale for profit...obviously the store-guy does SOMETHING with his spare time...
>>

So all that stuff Daecir posted about, having thieves have unique perks in the disarm system was crude? I couldnt imagine rangers getting harvesting. I fail to see how it suddenly becomes an integral part of their guild to remove man made traps from man made boxes. Harvesting is suppose to take us foward into black market like areas for thieves, and frankly I do not want it shared in the very least. It is one of the few unique thiefly things to have come out in a very long time, and while childish, I would like to keep it that way if at all possible. I do not understand how with a huge, detailed system like traps that rangers need a thief unique ability like harvesting. They can purchase the components if they wish, which makes sense to me; it involves the two groups working together on some level.


<<As I've said a dozen times and will continue to say, if Rangers want to be good at everything (generalizing), then they get to specialize in nothing. Its one or the other, you CANNOT do both. Thieves specialize in a few limited areas, Stealth, Stealing, Disarm/Locks, Stealth attacks. That's about it. Why should Rangers get access to everything we've specialized in, in regards to Disarm, when they have not specialized and they have generalized.
>>

Have to agree there as well. Reading our guilds history, the detection, disarming and avoidance of traps has been an integral part of our guild. Frankly, I do not see the ability to make a snare trap to be in any way related to disarming a explosion in a box. I personaly wished for a long time 'trapping' and 'disarm traps' remaned seperate skills, via the same logic weapons and evasion remain seperate skills.

On a final note regarding harvesting; this has really been the only truely unique thief release in almost a year. Its also been one ive enjoyed, and felt great about. It was truely setting us apart in the field of box poping, which is appropriate being the realms locksmiths. I fail to see how giving up the one truely unique thing we have gotten in a long time would do 'anything' to instil better GM/Thief relations. I can only see rangers getting harvesting as a mean of convinience, which is disheartening. Frankly, I have to agree with the above quoting; thieves are indeed specialists, we do not gain abilities pertaining to a broud variety of areas. We focus on stealth, stealing, stealth attacks, and disarm/locks. That is really how I would like to keep it, with an interesting ability here or there. But 'what' would seperate us on the disarm/lockpicking process after we loose harvesting? Glance? I plead that the decision be re-thought.

~~From Hell

I began quoting what you said then quickly realized ive barely slept. Sorry about that.

Im mostly thrown off by the notion rangers will now have access to the only plausable thief only release in the past 9 or so months. I dont realize why they require it in guild, when they can purchase the said materials. More so, components and the aqquiring there off was supposed to be illegal. This is why Ragge wont accept said components when non guilded are in the room. To my knowledge only the thieves guild supports illegal activity (a big reason no other guild can include stealing in there requirements), which takes this 1 step further to not making sense. If a ranger wishes to create a 'trap', I dont see why they cannot purchase the said materials. Not only would this be 'good' for promoting a black market like enviroment, but it creates another shade of the elanthean economy, one that is darker and more akin to shadows. Finaly, with the recent posts by players and Maelona on thief/gm relations (which I mostly agree upon); this really is not an ideal turn of events. Its not to say doing anything to cause us whine is not ideal (cause heck, that would be silly. Releases will never always be ideal for a said guild), but A) we are the locksmiths B) disarm/lockpicking are integral parts of our history, more so than any other guild C) its been the only in depth release for thieves in mind for a long time.

I realize disarming is being renamed to trapping (personally, they should be 2 different skills, ala weapons and evasion), but I dont see how renaming a skill suddenly allows for another guild to lay claim to a unique ability of a guild whom has a primary focus in that area (area being the disarming of traps to get to the goods inside). I would enjoy some clarification on this matter, mostly so I can go back to the original purpose of the thread (trap ideas for rangers).

~~From Hell

i will keep this short...

smoke that makes the verb watch inactive....


someone else can figure out the componet to go with it, watch is way over powered and needs a cure this would be a perfect way for us to fix that.


Aj
"Deadly force is that force which a person uses with the purpose of causing or which he/she should know would cause a substancial risk of death or suriuos bodily harm"

<<I'd recommend getting with Godrich on this one. There's room for traders in this.>>

Sure is, already got openings for Traders in the system.

Later,

Jent



**************************************
Some people take this game too seriously; they need to take a step back sometimes. -- Blasword. circa 2003

Fade is the ring leader of the thugs up in TC. Him or a low profile locksmith in Dirge might be good people to teach making traps... also i believe in one of Kalags memiors it was a Trader type person who has been supplying the "monsters" with trapped boxes, so possibly a Trader or some NPC within the trader guild to "rat out" the secrets the not so up and up Traders have been doing to make illigitamet profit.

I'd much prefer learning it from the Guild leaders being that Thieves don't really enjoy giving away information to others. Talkers in the guild can be silenced pretty effectively.

Need a pepper spray type trap, one that causes temperary blindness, and uncontrolled actions.

Yamcer

Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.

I really like Gonifs idea personally. Thieves harvest the raw, illegal traps. They then refine it themselves (new system?) or pass it along to a npc to refine it for them. The npc then gives those items to traders, whom in turn now sell the 'legal' versions of components to Rangers.

This is ideal as A) it keeps harvesting thief unique. I realize Jent that you would much rather prefer Rangers do to this step yourself, although I plead you look at it from a locksmiths point of view. Harvesting has been one of, if not the, hearty unique thief releases in the past year. B) It involves traders, a black market, as well as a economy of trap trade.

My curiosity is under the above system what would differe between 'refined' (legalized) and 'raw' (illegal?) components? I could see raw components being much harder to use in trap making, but being far more deadly; although they may even cause traps to malfunction. I could see 'refined' compononents having less punch, but being far easier to use in traps (as they are the common variety, and probably what the rangers were taught to use durring the 'speech').

As per methods of learning about it, the creation of 'man' traps should remain a ranger thing (snare, etc). I would like to see box-esq traps (placing a trap on a intricate lock in a large iron door) be a thief end of it, but I realize that trapping is more ideal for rangers in the wild. With that, as long as harvesting remains a thiefly activity, I dont see why traping wouldnt remain souly rangerish. On the other hand, if harvesting is shared, I would like to see an equal oppurtunity for trapping to be shared wholey with thieves as well.

~~From Hell

Hmm, I don't read the ranger boards at all, so I've got a ton of questions. Will this "exterminating" (trapping animals) system be open for everyone but skewed toward rangers, or will it be ranger-only, or will it be just open for everyone, since animal lore's opening up? Will you be able to make your own traps, or will you have to buy them all at this store you mentioned?

Also, what kinds of things are in mind for the Thieves in regards to this system? You said 'things', but not what kind. Are we going to be able to use the end 'product' meaning the trap itself, or are we going to instead be lending our hand to creating these 'man-traps', with rangers using the end product? Will these be useable in-town, or just out of town? Will making these traps be illegal or not? Where will traders and smuggling come in? I'm not trying to condemn the system at all, I just know nothing about it, and I'd like to know before offering suggestions. A run-down of what the system is would be nice, it'd save me (and probably a lot of other people) from having to wade through the ranger boards.

-Laelia JS

>>Disarm is going to be renamed as TRAPS. You should look at that as a good thing for your guild.

Uhmm...How? :P Can you give us non-con-goers a bit more insight on what's going to be done with the skill? If this is done, I see it as helping rangers with a new system...don't see anything in it for thieves...(Not that thieves should hafta get something just cos rangers do, etc)... Just don't see the justification off basing them on the same ranks, and don't see how thieves are to benefit from the change, offhand.

<<Again, sorry if you thought I was slamming you.>>

No, no, didn't take it that way I'm just trying to avoid being dragged into a discussion that is not germane to the reason I am here. I don't speak for your guild and I certainly don't speak for any other GM's, both would be a dangerous thing for me to do here. I just need to finish up this design spec and wanted some feedback. I think it will work out well.

<<I'd much prefer learning it from the Guild leaders being that Thieves don't really enjoy giving away information to others. Talkers in the guild can be silenced pretty effectively.>>

Good Point.

<<For the love of all that's holy,>>

That was funny.

<<Will this "exterminating" (trapping animals) system be open for everyone but skewed toward rangers, or will it be ranger-only, or will it be just open for everyone, since animal lore's opening up? Will you be able to make your own traps, or will you have to buy them all at this store you mentioned?>>

The first stage "exterminating traps" will be available to everyone. There will be a number of success checks in the process and there will be some stuff skewed towards Rangers, but not a flat percentage bonus some fun stuff that I like to do so Dritzfury and the like can't post the formula on the boards 20 minutes after it is released. As a whole there will be lots of modifiers, including; location, time of day, season, stuff like that. Animal Lore will definitely be a part of the success checks as well as the exp. reward.

Making the traps will be the last thing and will depend on how the DRII project works out. Store bought will be the first you see, then the big man traps will be next, then the making of smaller snares and traps.


<<and thieves will have a hand in this system for the urban purposes.>>

Speaking about the man traps, the way I am setting it up now I don't really give a troll's behind where ya place the trap. The bonus to each guild comes with the way the success checks are set up not so much as where they are. I suppose I could make them urban/non-urban dependent but that is a bit limiting for each guild. The location checks will come with the checks for the "exterminating traps" and the critters I am trying to trap. You should be able to blow someone or something up anywhere ya want.

So thanks everyone, I think got some good stuff to work with. There is no time frame on this stuff but it is on our list of things to do. If there is no one on the Thief team available to work on this at the point we are ready to start this part of trapping we will take care of it. Or if a new Thief GM wants to run with it before that great. I have no problem with that.


Take care,

Jent



**************************************
Some people take this game too seriously; they need to take a step back sometimes. -- Blasword. circa 2003

>>1-Who would be more likely to teach the mechanics of trapping?

I particularly liked the idea someone came up with of having various people teach one specific trap making technique. If its going to be one person, Guildleader Saishla would be my pick. She's the poison girl, and I think traps would suit her best... or maybe the new guildleader in Muspar'i whenever that arrives. People who could teach trap creation if we go the individual trap teaching method would be all the guildleaders (Saishla poison traps, Crow mana traps, Kalag stabby traps, Dwillig stunning/electric traps or whatever kind of trap that is he actually has in his office, Fade falling down hole/powder traps, Kelvin (if he still exists) cage traps. etc). The locksmith shopowners could teach, Raif on Ratha - there are so many trap making possibilities you could have tons of methods for teaching different traps all throughout the realms. You could even plan one or two traps for GMNPCs that will teach it to a few people and they would then be able to teach those traps. Perhaps there could be a book somewhere that teaches a trap-making method or two. Maybe some traps would be creatable on your own without specific instructions assuming you had Saishla's basic trap course and figured out the steps.

>>2-What specific traps would you like to see?

As I got to thinking up suggestions, it occured to me that there would be different styles of traps (trip wire, pressure stone, timed release, fuses, holes, falling objects, door traps) but within those different styles you could place different components to achieve the desired result - such as a trip wire could connect to poison gas to poison someone, or blinding powder, or mana sucker rune, poison darts, blades, etc. Here's a very few possible ideas:

Trip Wires/Pressure Stones:
- attached to string holding blunt object (rock/wood) that releases and swings at the head (blunt object on one side to stun, blunt object on both sides to kill)
- attached to crossbow bolt launcher (like in the box trap - possibly poisoned with nerve, sleeping, stun or other poisons)
- attached to dart launcher (possibly poisoned with nerve, sleeping, stun or other poisons)
- attached to bellows containing sleeping powder
- attached to bladder containing sleeping powder, acid, disease, liquid naptha, viper juice (for stunning)
- attached to spikes that swing down/up/sideways
- pressure stones/mines that explode when stepped on
- attached to bells to alert others someone/something is coming

Fuses
- that go to traps that produce smoke screen
- connected to explosive traps like naptha
- that blow up container with sleeping substance/acid/shrapnel/poison gas/etc

Box Traps:
- Trap closable containers with all the usual box traps using components harvested from the trap of choice

Portal Traps:
- plant something heavy on sill of door
- wires from door knob to trap same as all trip wire suggestions above
- Using harvested studs with lightning in them, attach to door knob for electrocution/stun.

Immobilizing Traps:
- Nets to capture folks/critters that can be taken down and dragged around (and person/critter can be beat on while in net)
- Trench filled with tar (am I getting far fetched now?)
- Trip wire, fuse traps, etc that flash and bang, stunning victim
- Something using that damned mime trap!

Traps on everyday items:
- Booby trap every day items so when they are picked up the victim is stunned, or is poisoned (possibly poison that doesn't show up for some period of time - 10 minutes, 2 hours, etc).
- Attach electric studs to metal objects (maybe weapons)

Okay, I'm tired of thinking. This is a good start for all you other creative folks out there to build from. My traps ideas are all fairly standard but I know a lot of you have wild imaginations.


>>3-Can harvested parts from boxes be directly used with man traps or is there another stage of work on them and how do you see that working?

Of course harvested box parts should be included! I don't see why any preparation of the part would be needed other than the specific steps to setting up a trap, such as <tie wire to lever, attach lever to hammer, push hammer up, place vial under hammer, etc>. If a Thief wants to use the component for a trap, they can do that, if they want to sell the component to get the coins, they can do that too - their choice. As long as this more high-tech, bomb-like, urban side to traps is only for Thieves, there won't be any barriers at all in including trap components in the system and no need to come up with convoluted systems to try and get components in the hands of non-Thieves. In fact, I would be very shocked if such an obvious pre-existing tool were not included in trap making!

I would envision the trap components and trap-setting working in one of two ways. The way I like best would be what the type of thing I described above, where every trap has a series of steps that need to be done (taught by the guildleader/instructor - maybe the traps can be possible without the lesson, but much more likely to fail), during which possible failures occur resulting in a) the trap not being assembled, b) the trap exploding on the trap-setter, or c) the trap being assembled but turns out to be a dud. The other, simpler, less sexy way would be to just hold the trap component(s) in your hands and type TRAP <object|area>. It could still have the same a, b, or c outcome but all in one step.

That's it for now!


the Hand
Visit The Locksmith Union - http://www.lurksponge.com/locksmithunion

I am just wondering with some of the suggestions how much traps are going to cause increased CvC... I mean if you can set up a lethal trap on a door, and are skilled enough to conceal it, you can seriously spoil some honeymoons at the inns <chuckle>. Also laying traps in rooms is a good way to hurt someone without them knowing who put it there. Imagine running up the NTR setting traps every 4 or 5 rooms...

Will there be options to set traps that are non lethal to PCs?
How about traps specifically for certain types of critter, e.g bear traps, leucro traps...
Mana traps for spellcasting critters.
Teleport traps that can be used to poof a critter if things get hairy in a swarm (could be activated on the arrival of xth critter).
Spring traps, used to launch anything stepping on it a room in some random direction.
A caltrop trap, when activated it detonates a small device that launches dozens of tiny spiked metal caltrops which will have an effect similar to flea boxes, causing rt if you are trying to fight while standing in the area.

Just a few off the top of my head.

The only thing that bothers me is the potential abuse of this sytem. Skill checks are all well and good, but seriously, murder chrarges? You wipe out a few newbs and get a few plat fine, so what? What if someone finds a trap you set.. do they get consent? What if you walk into a room and get killed by a trap... annoyed? I would be. A skilled trapper could effectively hold a reign of terror... walking from room to room, is it trapped? BOOM! yep. Just wondering what restrictions will be placed on traps and just how lethal they will be to PCs.

What about the NTR.. no passerby outside town... and if someone sets s trap and it goes off killing you, how are you going to know who set it? Also what if someone is setting a trap in a hunting area to say.. ensnare a critter and you walk in and activate it? Trapper is hidden and decides he doesn't want to stick around, and you never know who set it? I wouldn't imagine you can tell who made a trap just by looking at it. If a system is going to start causing lockouts for kill counts that can't be a good thing.

Perhaps traps could be by default non CvC, and you would have to specifically set one to trap a PC, with restrictions placed on it similar to SNIPE, i.e. you set a trap that harms a PC, without prior consent/agreement from that person, you lose the ability.

Well, you still would have to deal with lockouts and the such from killing PCs. Perhaps you would need to -stay- in the room you set the trap with some traps, so that you can't set a trap, run off, and there's no possible consequence? You get a message like "You see that <character> is about to set off your trap." And you have a few seconds to run, warn them, disable them, or laugh?

And, yes, I like the idea of setting a trap to be either CvC or not. Or having traps that players don't unconsciously set off -- such as the baiting of a trap with a big, raw, steak with a noose under it, or something of that sort. CvC traps shouldn't be unavailable -- just more difficult to obtain, create, and so on. Though, I do think that it'd be realistic to see some characters come in with legs mangled from bear traps or something of the sort occasionally.

I think that seeing traps being activated by creature intelligence would be interesting -- have a scale regarding instinct and intelligence, where certain traps appeal to the more instinctual ones (meat over a noose, or something), while some intelligent creatures would walk by that one.

But repeated unconsented trappings -- perhaps three or so -- would merit removal of the ability, unless you specifically target players?

---

"If cigarettes cause cancer, what causes capricorn? If Tim runs east with two apples, when does the train arrive with peaches? Can Peter Puppy have a bite of your ice cream sandwitch?"