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-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
MOOK1
DEVAN
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:25 PM CST
A: "It's not a fair punishment."
B: "It's not a punishment."
A: "It wasn't intended as a punishment, but it's totally a punishment."
B: "It's... still not a punishment."
A: "But I'm being punished. So it's a punishment."
B: "And now it's all about you."
B: "It's not a punishment."
A: "It wasn't intended as a punishment, but it's totally a punishment."
B: "It's... still not a punishment."
A: "But I'm being punished. So it's a punishment."
B: "And now it's all about you."
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:34 PM CST
<<I'd love to know of these situations where you have no option BUT to type STEAL PLAYER.
The point is conflict resolution. The conflict is created with the player I steal with, and if caught, he can bring to bear anyone and everyone to take me down or retrieve his coin. If not caught, the conflict may exist, but only one side has knowledge of both parties. If you get your wallet lifted in a starbucks in LA, unless you saw who did it, that person could be standing next to you still. You don't have a clue who did it, and he got away scot free. THIS policy puts a freaking neon sign on his forehead that says "I hate <insert minority>".
The unpleasant fact about theft is that it is a conflict that sometimes just isn't resolved. This policy was designed to prevent that, by forcing players to face SOME type of consequence for successful theft.
The fact is, you don't HAVE to do a thing, you can sit on your rear on some stump in the forest somewhere. If you walk into town, and carry money, you are running the risk of it getting stolen. If you choose not to take precautions with your money, the risk goes up. If I steal from you, I have fulfilled the downside of that risk, at my own risk. If you make it through without losing your money, your risk is complete. If I steal from you without being caught, my risk should also be complete.
We are both running a risk, with full knowledge of the potential consequences. However, as it stands, it is no longer a risk for a thief, it is a guaranteed punitive result. This is prejudicial, contributes nothing whatsoever to conflict resolution, and is barely useful as a practical deterrent to theft.
I can choose to not play a thief, as... a thief. This, to me, doesn't seem to be a reasonable option.
The point is conflict resolution. The conflict is created with the player I steal with, and if caught, he can bring to bear anyone and everyone to take me down or retrieve his coin. If not caught, the conflict may exist, but only one side has knowledge of both parties. If you get your wallet lifted in a starbucks in LA, unless you saw who did it, that person could be standing next to you still. You don't have a clue who did it, and he got away scot free. THIS policy puts a freaking neon sign on his forehead that says "I hate <insert minority>".
The unpleasant fact about theft is that it is a conflict that sometimes just isn't resolved. This policy was designed to prevent that, by forcing players to face SOME type of consequence for successful theft.
The fact is, you don't HAVE to do a thing, you can sit on your rear on some stump in the forest somewhere. If you walk into town, and carry money, you are running the risk of it getting stolen. If you choose not to take precautions with your money, the risk goes up. If I steal from you, I have fulfilled the downside of that risk, at my own risk. If you make it through without losing your money, your risk is complete. If I steal from you without being caught, my risk should also be complete.
We are both running a risk, with full knowledge of the potential consequences. However, as it stands, it is no longer a risk for a thief, it is a guaranteed punitive result. This is prejudicial, contributes nothing whatsoever to conflict resolution, and is barely useful as a practical deterrent to theft.
I can choose to not play a thief, as... a thief. This, to me, doesn't seem to be a reasonable option.
MOOK1
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:34 PM CST
And end cue.
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:37 PM CST
The argument over if it's a punishment or not is pointless, anyway, because it being a punishment or not is entirely relative and not directly connected to the idea of it's an appropriate response or not.
If player character X punches GMNPC Lordy McTherengiaOwner in the face and gets deported to Hara, it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment to the player or not rests entirely on if the player likes it or dislikes it as a response.
Same with this situation. If player X decides to engage in hostile actions with other players and gets set to "I am comfortable with hostile actions," it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment or not rests entirely on if the player likes or dislikes situations where they're the target of hostile actions.
For people who are always set to Open, ti's clear they're absolutely comfortable with situations where they're the target of hostile actions. For people who aren't set to Open, it may be viewed as punitive because they don't want to be the target of hostile actions.
Of course, the best way to avoid being the target of hostile actions [from players] as of right now is to stop doing things that are hostile actions to other players.
This is the most basic simple thing in the universe and it boggles me that someone is absolutely convinced that stealing isn't hostile and thus a statement that they're okay with engaging in hostile actions with other players.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
If player character X punches GMNPC Lordy McTherengiaOwner in the face and gets deported to Hara, it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment to the player or not rests entirely on if the player likes it or dislikes it as a response.
Same with this situation. If player X decides to engage in hostile actions with other players and gets set to "I am comfortable with hostile actions," it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment or not rests entirely on if the player likes or dislikes situations where they're the target of hostile actions.
For people who are always set to Open, ti's clear they're absolutely comfortable with situations where they're the target of hostile actions. For people who aren't set to Open, it may be viewed as punitive because they don't want to be the target of hostile actions.
Of course, the best way to avoid being the target of hostile actions [from players] as of right now is to stop doing things that are hostile actions to other players.
This is the most basic simple thing in the universe and it boggles me that someone is absolutely convinced that stealing isn't hostile and thus a statement that they're okay with engaging in hostile actions with other players.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:41 PM CST
>>The point is conflict resolution.
We get it: You want to define when conflicts start and when they end.
Sadly, it's not about just you. If you don't want others to determine when a conflict starts, stop starting conflicts with other people. It's that damn simple. It can't be any simpler.
>> If you get your wallet lifted in a starbucks in LA, unless you saw who did it, that person could be standing next to you still. You don't have a clue who did it, and he got away scot free. THIS policy puts a freaking neon sign on his forehead that says "I hate <insert minority>".
You're adorable: never change.
But really, change.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
We get it: You want to define when conflicts start and when they end.
Sadly, it's not about just you. If you don't want others to determine when a conflict starts, stop starting conflicts with other people. It's that damn simple. It can't be any simpler.
>> If you get your wallet lifted in a starbucks in LA, unless you saw who did it, that person could be standing next to you still. You don't have a clue who did it, and he got away scot free. THIS policy puts a freaking neon sign on his forehead that says "I hate <insert minority>".
You're adorable: never change.
But really, change.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:44 PM CST
<<The argument over if it's a punishment or not is pointless, anyway, because it being a punishment or not is entirely relative and not directly connected to the idea of it's an appropriate response or not.
Thank you.
<<If player character X punches GMNPC Lordy McTherengiaOwner in the face and gets deported to Hara, it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment to the player or not rests entirely on if the player likes it or dislikes it as a response.
Player X got caught. Stupidity is not mandatory.
<<Same with this situation. If player X decides to engage in hostile actions with other players and gets set to "I am comfortable with hostile actions," it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment or not rests entirely on if the player likes or dislikes situations where they're the target of hostile actions.
In this case, it is not assumed that player X got caught. If he did, he should of course be open to such hostile repercussions. If not, he should not be subject to any such thing. This is punishment for the ACT, irrespective of success (not getting caught) or failure (getting caught).
<<For people who are always set to Open, ti's clear they're absolutely comfortable with situations where they're the target of hostile actions. For people who aren't set to Open, it may be viewed as punitive because they don't want to be the target of hostile actions.
They don't want to be the target of RANDOM hostile actions, but in which stealing REMAINS a risk.
<<Of course, the best way to avoid being the target of hostile actions [from players] as of right now is to stop doing things that are hostile actions to other players.
OR, don't get caught doing them. Why is this possibility ignored?
<<This is the most basic simple thing in the universe and it boggles me that someone is absolutely convinced that stealing isn't hostile and thus a statement that they're okay with engaging in hostile actions with other players.
I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT. I reject the idea of punishing regardless of whether the person is caught or not.
Thank you.
<<If player character X punches GMNPC Lordy McTherengiaOwner in the face and gets deported to Hara, it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment to the player or not rests entirely on if the player likes it or dislikes it as a response.
Player X got caught. Stupidity is not mandatory.
<<Same with this situation. If player X decides to engage in hostile actions with other players and gets set to "I am comfortable with hostile actions," it's an appropriate response. The determination of it being a punishment or not rests entirely on if the player likes or dislikes situations where they're the target of hostile actions.
In this case, it is not assumed that player X got caught. If he did, he should of course be open to such hostile repercussions. If not, he should not be subject to any such thing. This is punishment for the ACT, irrespective of success (not getting caught) or failure (getting caught).
<<For people who are always set to Open, ti's clear they're absolutely comfortable with situations where they're the target of hostile actions. For people who aren't set to Open, it may be viewed as punitive because they don't want to be the target of hostile actions.
They don't want to be the target of RANDOM hostile actions, but in which stealing REMAINS a risk.
<<Of course, the best way to avoid being the target of hostile actions [from players] as of right now is to stop doing things that are hostile actions to other players.
OR, don't get caught doing them. Why is this possibility ignored?
<<This is the most basic simple thing in the universe and it boggles me that someone is absolutely convinced that stealing isn't hostile and thus a statement that they're okay with engaging in hostile actions with other players.
I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT. I reject the idea of punishing regardless of whether the person is caught or not.
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:47 PM CST
<<We get it: You want to define when conflicts start and when they end.
Everyone does this, some are simply stupid enough to put an identity to their crime. Prison is full of people in this category, wall street is full of people in my category.
<<Sadly, it's not about just you. If you don't want others to determine when a conflict starts, stop starting conflicts with other people. It's that damn simple. It can't be any simpler.
Punitive. Plain and simple. I get that this is how it IS, I reject that this is how it SHOULD be, given the circumstances. You and Devan should really get on the same page on this.
Everyone does this, some are simply stupid enough to put an identity to their crime. Prison is full of people in this category, wall street is full of people in my category.
<<Sadly, it's not about just you. If you don't want others to determine when a conflict starts, stop starting conflicts with other people. It's that damn simple. It can't be any simpler.
Punitive. Plain and simple. I get that this is how it IS, I reject that this is how it SHOULD be, given the circumstances. You and Devan should really get on the same page on this.
MOOK1
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:49 PM CST
http://www.break.com/index/another-merry-go-round-moron.html
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 01:56 PM CST
>>In this case, it is not assumed that player X got caught. If he did, he should of course be open to such hostile repercussions. If not, he should not be subject to any such thing. This is punishment for the ACT, irrespective of success (not getting caught) or failure (getting caught).
You're right: it's not assumed that you got caught stealing. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. What does matter is that you're choosing to engage in hostile actions with other players. You're also absolutely right that you're set to being OPEN as a result of the action itself. Know why? Because it means you're choosing to engage in hostile actions with other players.
>>They don't want to be the target of RANDOM hostile actions, but in which stealing REMAINS a risk.
You're absolutely right: Stealing gets special privileges that other hostile actions don't get. You're very fortunate that you don't have to navigate around consent policies and argue with GMs when someone gets super upset that you engaged in a hostile action against them without consent. You're just able to do it, just like that!
>>OR, don't get caught doing them. Why is this possibility ignored?
Because it's irrelevant.
>>I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT.
So you agree that you want to be able to act in a hostile manner with other players, without their consent, but you require consent for anyone to engage in their version of hostile actions with you?
>>Everyone does this, some are simply stupid enough to put an identity to their crime. Prison is full of people in this category, wall street is full of people in my category.
You've entered even deeper into crazed hyperbole land.
>>I get that this is how it IS, I reject that this is how it SHOULD be, given the circumstances.
Yes, we understand that you believe you are special enough to be able to choose when to engage with other players in a hostile way without any rhyme or logic other than "I REALLY WANNA STEAL!" but they can't choose when to engage with you.
>>You and Devan should really get on the same page on this.
We're both on the same page with the parts that count:
1) Being set to OPEN is a reasonable response to engaging in hostile actions with other players.
2) Stealing is a hostile action against other players.
3) BOBTHESNOB5515 flails hilariously.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
You're right: it's not assumed that you got caught stealing. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. What does matter is that you're choosing to engage in hostile actions with other players. You're also absolutely right that you're set to being OPEN as a result of the action itself. Know why? Because it means you're choosing to engage in hostile actions with other players.
>>They don't want to be the target of RANDOM hostile actions, but in which stealing REMAINS a risk.
You're absolutely right: Stealing gets special privileges that other hostile actions don't get. You're very fortunate that you don't have to navigate around consent policies and argue with GMs when someone gets super upset that you engaged in a hostile action against them without consent. You're just able to do it, just like that!
>>OR, don't get caught doing them. Why is this possibility ignored?
Because it's irrelevant.
>>I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT.
So you agree that you want to be able to act in a hostile manner with other players, without their consent, but you require consent for anyone to engage in their version of hostile actions with you?
>>Everyone does this, some are simply stupid enough to put an identity to their crime. Prison is full of people in this category, wall street is full of people in my category.
You've entered even deeper into crazed hyperbole land.
>>I get that this is how it IS, I reject that this is how it SHOULD be, given the circumstances.
Yes, we understand that you believe you are special enough to be able to choose when to engage with other players in a hostile way without any rhyme or logic other than "I REALLY WANNA STEAL!" but they can't choose when to engage with you.
>>You and Devan should really get on the same page on this.
We're both on the same page with the parts that count:
1) Being set to OPEN is a reasonable response to engaging in hostile actions with other players.
2) Stealing is a hostile action against other players.
3) BOBTHESNOB5515 flails hilariously.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DRUHANL3
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:05 PM CST
>I can choose to not play a thief, as... a thief. This, to me, doesn't seem to be a reasonable option.
You can steal from players all you want. You just then, have to deal with the outcome of your play decision. If you want to be a part of the game that deals with PvP - to include stealing from players - then learn to live with it.
You want to be a gang banger, mobster, professional criminal, etc... Great, go for it, play your character like that. But don't belly ache when you get killed - it was your choice.
Don't want to steal from other characters, fine too. Be a locksmith, be a shop lifter, be a ninja, plenty of thief RP availiable without stealing from other characters.
>...it is no longer a risk for a thief, it is a guaranteed punitive result.
It is not a guaranteed punitive result. It is a guaranteed potential punitive result.
You can steal from players all you want. You just then, have to deal with the outcome of your play decision. If you want to be a part of the game that deals with PvP - to include stealing from players - then learn to live with it.
You want to be a gang banger, mobster, professional criminal, etc... Great, go for it, play your character like that. But don't belly ache when you get killed - it was your choice.
Don't want to steal from other characters, fine too. Be a locksmith, be a shop lifter, be a ninja, plenty of thief RP availiable without stealing from other characters.
>...it is no longer a risk for a thief, it is a guaranteed punitive result.
It is not a guaranteed punitive result. It is a guaranteed potential punitive result.
WOODHAMR3
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:11 PM CST
just leave britney alone, guys
-Mr. Glemm
-Mr. Glemm
BEVERAGEK
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:13 PM CST
>>Don't want to steal from other characters, fine too. Be a locksmith, be a shop lifter, be a ninja, plenty of thief RP availiable without stealing from other characters.
I'd just like to point out that all of these are perfectly valid Thief archetypes which do not cross the lines of Character vs Character stealing.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
I'd just like to point out that all of these are perfectly valid Thief archetypes which do not cross the lines of Character vs Character stealing.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:17 PM CST
Ok Bob the Snob, since it's all about not being caught... is it perfectly fine for me to start a conflict at any time I want with you by taking a 150th ranger and sniping you in the face? I'll never get caught because you'll never see him sniping.
Cool?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Cool?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:17 PM CST
<<You're right: it's not assumed that you got caught stealing. You know why? Because it doesn't matter.
This is a statement of current policy. I am contesting current policy. Can we move on to the actual why?
<<Because it's irrelevant.
Apparently we can't move on. It is irrelevant under current policy. I am aware of this. I am contesting this policy, not reality.
<<So you agree that you want to be able to act in a hostile manner with other players, without their consent, but you require consent for anyone to engage in their version of hostile actions with you?
Absolutely not, anyone and everyone can steal from me without my consent. That hasn't changed, and isn't likely to. There is a very good reason for that. You are calling it a hostile action, and using this to justify the resulting stance change. I am saying that it IS a hostile action, it IS a conflict, but if my mark didn't train his perception, or guard his coin, thats his fault. The conflict can be engaged as soon as he catches me at it, otherwise, he's SOL.
<<You've entered even deeper into crazed hyperbole land.
This is reality. You may not like my opinions on the matter, but that also is irrelevant.
<<"I REALLY WANNA STEAL!" but they can't choose when to engage with you.
They absolutely can. I don't have a locked moneybelt, I'm at risk just the same as they are. When they walk around with money, thats a risk. When I try to lift it, thats a risk. If he fails, and I succeed, only one of us loses. If I fail, and he catches me, only one of us loses. As it stands, if he fails, and I succeed, we both lose. Thats BS.
<<1) Being set to OPEN is a reasonable response to engaging in hostile actions with other players.
If caught. I would also argue that CONSENT would be a reasonable response, but I"m less worried about the little details as I am about the distinction between success and failure.
<<2) Stealing is a hostile action against other players.
Agreed.
<<3) BOBTHESNOB5515 flails hilariously.
or...
<<3) Stealing, and being caught, results in you being set to open(or consent).
I would argue that guarded is probably a more reasonable response, but if we can agree to add the "if caught" (a result I highly doubt will occur), we can hammer those details out later.
This is a statement of current policy. I am contesting current policy. Can we move on to the actual why?
<<Because it's irrelevant.
Apparently we can't move on. It is irrelevant under current policy. I am aware of this. I am contesting this policy, not reality.
<<So you agree that you want to be able to act in a hostile manner with other players, without their consent, but you require consent for anyone to engage in their version of hostile actions with you?
Absolutely not, anyone and everyone can steal from me without my consent. That hasn't changed, and isn't likely to. There is a very good reason for that. You are calling it a hostile action, and using this to justify the resulting stance change. I am saying that it IS a hostile action, it IS a conflict, but if my mark didn't train his perception, or guard his coin, thats his fault. The conflict can be engaged as soon as he catches me at it, otherwise, he's SOL.
<<You've entered even deeper into crazed hyperbole land.
This is reality. You may not like my opinions on the matter, but that also is irrelevant.
<<"I REALLY WANNA STEAL!" but they can't choose when to engage with you.
They absolutely can. I don't have a locked moneybelt, I'm at risk just the same as they are. When they walk around with money, thats a risk. When I try to lift it, thats a risk. If he fails, and I succeed, only one of us loses. If I fail, and he catches me, only one of us loses. As it stands, if he fails, and I succeed, we both lose. Thats BS.
<<1) Being set to OPEN is a reasonable response to engaging in hostile actions with other players.
If caught. I would also argue that CONSENT would be a reasonable response, but I"m less worried about the little details as I am about the distinction between success and failure.
<<2) Stealing is a hostile action against other players.
Agreed.
<<3) BOBTHESNOB5515 flails hilariously.
or...
<<3) Stealing, and being caught, results in you being set to open(or consent).
I would argue that guarded is probably a more reasonable response, but if we can agree to add the "if caught" (a result I highly doubt will occur), we can hammer those details out later.
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:19 PM CST
<<I'll never get caught because you'll never see him sniping.
Correct. I can't know who did it, I can't engage in the conflict. That is why I wouldn't be "open to any and all conflict". If that ranger stole from me, it wouldn't be any different.
I would also like to point out that this is exactly how the current system is set up...
Correct. I can't know who did it, I can't engage in the conflict. That is why I wouldn't be "open to any and all conflict". If that ranger stole from me, it wouldn't be any different.
I would also like to point out that this is exactly how the current system is set up...
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:20 PM CST
<<I'd just like to point out that all of these are perfectly valid Thief archetypes which do not cross the lines of Character vs Character stealing.
This is a valid point, but it is a side issue in regards to stealing. There are other options, yes, but that doesn't mean this one option is not broken.
This is a valid point, but it is a side issue in regards to stealing. There are other options, yes, but that doesn't mean this one option is not broken.
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:22 PM CST
If the Ranger snipes you in the face without being caught, is that initiating conflict?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:26 PM CST
I don't get how this is so difficult.
Looking past the OPEN, the punishment, the caught or not, everything.
If one wants to play in a bubble and only let certain people into it, or play with yourself for that matter...
don't go putting your hand in another person's pants (or poking them with a sharp stick)
If you want to go around touching, poking, stealing or killing, you're going to get your profile set to open because you are willing to play outside the bubble.
Looking past the OPEN, the punishment, the caught or not, everything.
If one wants to play in a bubble and only let certain people into it, or play with yourself for that matter...
don't go putting your hand in another person's pants (or poking them with a sharp stick)
If you want to go around touching, poking, stealing or killing, you're going to get your profile set to open because you are willing to play outside the bubble.
ASHBAUGHJ2
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:27 PM CST
I like to look at it as a meta-school of hard knocks that is very committed to lifetime education. It's the lesson that keeps on making sure you really work out appropriate hidey holes to lay low after the crime, because you never know if "someone" oversaw it all. Or even detected you though magical or non-perceptive means (re: Melete). The world is indeed out to get you, you should be paranoid.
Or you could just complain about what isn't gonna change anyways, I dunno.
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
Or you could just complain about what isn't gonna change anyways, I dunno.
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:27 PM CST
Just so we're all clear: we're all aware that the policy is never going to change, and in fact will include even MORE things that set you to PvP Open, correct?
What's that? Everyone but Bob?
Oh.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
What's that? Everyone but Bob?
Oh.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DRUHANL3
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:28 PM CST
> <<I'd just like to point out that all of these are perfectly valid Thief archetypes which do not cross the lines of Character vs Character stealing.
>This is a valid point, but it is a side issue in regards to stealing. There are other options, yes, but that doesn't mean this one option is not broken.
What you're missing is that choosing to steal from other characters setting you to OPEN is not broken.
It is just making stealing from other characters inherently more risky. Such is the life of a criminal.
>This is a valid point, but it is a side issue in regards to stealing. There are other options, yes, but that doesn't mean this one option is not broken.
What you're missing is that choosing to steal from other characters setting you to OPEN is not broken.
It is just making stealing from other characters inherently more risky. Such is the life of a criminal.
DEVAN
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 02:53 PM CST
>>Just so we're all clear: we're all aware that the policy is never going to change, and in fact will include even MORE things that set you to PvP Open, correct?
No, Bob knows it, too. That's not the issue.
The problem is that people are being nice and trying to help him enjoy the game. It's not like this is the first time he's complained about this.
No, Bob knows it, too. That's not the issue.
The problem is that people are being nice and trying to help him enjoy the game. It's not like this is the first time he's complained about this.
CHRISSY-QUE
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 03:13 PM CST
So, Bobthesnob...your general complaint is the stealing policy is unfair to smaller thieves because "might makes right," and you find yourself lacking in the might department at 57th? Also, that all thieves steal, it's why we became thieves. Aaand..oh, right - Open is a death sentence and any and all player theft requires hiding out until a person can return to guarded, or else Person Z will brutalize them for no reason. Did I pick up on all your points?
Hate to break it to you, but my 49th thief has been stealing from everyone she can manage to since she got a few ranks under her belt. She's not a thief to steal in general, but to be an assassin. She doesn't hide out after theft. The stealing policy doesn't feel unfair to me. Oh, and she's also been Open since I rolled her and has randomly been ganked maybe all of twice. Other than showing you're wrong in your generalizations and should stop speaking for every thief player, what else does my experience versus yours say about you?
Hate to break it to you, but my 49th thief has been stealing from everyone she can manage to since she got a few ranks under her belt. She's not a thief to steal in general, but to be an assassin. She doesn't hide out after theft. The stealing policy doesn't feel unfair to me. Oh, and she's also been Open since I rolled her and has randomly been ganked maybe all of twice. Other than showing you're wrong in your generalizations and should stop speaking for every thief player, what else does my experience versus yours say about you?
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 03:45 PM CST
<<So, Bobthesnob...your general complaint is the stealing policy is unfair to smaller thieves because "might makes right," and you find yourself lacking in the might department at 57th? Also, that all thieves steal, it's why we became thieves. Aaand..oh, right - Open is a death sentence and any and all player theft requires hiding out until a person can return to guarded, or else Person Z will brutalize them for no reason. Did I pick up on all your points?
Hi, welcome to the conversation! I didn't bring up might makes right, that was a point offered as anecdote in response to my saying that open gets you killed. VEE-REX said he is big enough that thieves don't steal from him, and he doesn't have to worry about being killed. You'll find this exchange on the complaints forum. It's not about my "might", it's about whether I should have to fight everyone and anyone because I entered conflict with one person.
The rest is pretty accurate, yes.
<<Hate to break it to you, but my 49th thief has been stealing from everyone she can manage to since she got a few ranks under her belt. She's not a thief to steal in general, but to be an assassin. She doesn't hide out after theft. The stealing policy doesn't feel unfair to me. Oh, and she's also been Open since I rolled her and has randomly been ganked maybe all of twice. Other than showing you're wrong in your generalizations and should stop speaking for every thief player, what else does my experience versus yours say about you?
Thank you for the anecdote. I'm guessing you wish to establish yourself as more credible than me?
Just a guess....
Hi, welcome to the conversation! I didn't bring up might makes right, that was a point offered as anecdote in response to my saying that open gets you killed. VEE-REX said he is big enough that thieves don't steal from him, and he doesn't have to worry about being killed. You'll find this exchange on the complaints forum. It's not about my "might", it's about whether I should have to fight everyone and anyone because I entered conflict with one person.
The rest is pretty accurate, yes.
<<Hate to break it to you, but my 49th thief has been stealing from everyone she can manage to since she got a few ranks under her belt. She's not a thief to steal in general, but to be an assassin. She doesn't hide out after theft. The stealing policy doesn't feel unfair to me. Oh, and she's also been Open since I rolled her and has randomly been ganked maybe all of twice. Other than showing you're wrong in your generalizations and should stop speaking for every thief player, what else does my experience versus yours say about you?
Thank you for the anecdote. I'm guessing you wish to establish yourself as more credible than me?
Just a guess....
OSUS
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 03:46 PM CST
I like pie.
Pie doesnt set my character open.
Open =/= pie.
I like pie.
Pie doesnt set my character open.
Open =/= pie.
I like pie.
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:29 PM CST
>>VEE-REX said he is big enough that thieves don't steal from him, and he doesn't have to worry about being killed.
I said that I wouldn't have any difficulties in smashing most 150th thieves, not that I have no concerns of being killed. Please get your quotes right.
Also, bringing a 150th Ranger to snipe your face off without being caught is not initiating conflict, right? You preached about how not being caught stealing is not initiating conflict, so answer this please.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I said that I wouldn't have any difficulties in smashing most 150th thieves, not that I have no concerns of being killed. Please get your quotes right.
Also, bringing a 150th Ranger to snipe your face off without being caught is not initiating conflict, right? You preached about how not being caught stealing is not initiating conflict, so answer this please.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:37 PM CST
<<I said that I wouldn't have any difficulties in smashing most 150th thieves, not that I have no concerns of being killed. Please get your quotes right.
Close enough, by my lights.
<<Also, bringing a 150th Ranger to snipe your face off without being caught is not initiating conflict, right? You preached about how not being caught stealing is not initiating conflict, so answer this please.
I said that both were conflict, repeatedly, incessantly. Please get your quotes right.
<< I am saying that it IS a hostile action, it IS a conflict,
<<I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT.
<<The unpleasant fact about theft is that it is a conflict that sometimes just isn't resolved.
I have more, thats just on this page.
Close enough, by my lights.
<<Also, bringing a 150th Ranger to snipe your face off without being caught is not initiating conflict, right? You preached about how not being caught stealing is not initiating conflict, so answer this please.
I said that both were conflict, repeatedly, incessantly. Please get your quotes right.
<< I am saying that it IS a hostile action, it IS a conflict,
<<I conceded that it is hostile, I conceded that punishment is due IF CAUGHT.
<<The unpleasant fact about theft is that it is a conflict that sometimes just isn't resolved.
I have more, thats just on this page.
ASHBAUGHJ2
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:38 PM CST
So, if we say you're right, but it's still not gonna change will you stop posting insanely long repetitions of the same thing?
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:48 PM CST
<<Thank you for the anecdote. I'm guessing you wish to establish yourself as more credible than me?
This wasn't precisely what I was attempting to say, and I can see how this statement could be quite easily misconstrued. I want to be clear that I am not speaking for every thief, I have couched my generalities in statements like, "those I have spoken with" or "many thieves" etc.
You don't hide after theft, you've been open since you started, and you're training to be an assassin. Who have you assassinated? Who have you stolen from? Where do you hang out while being open to any and all conflict? Could your character being female have anything do with with other characters reactions to you?
Have you met anyone who has been cut down for being open? Met anyone who has since chosen to simply go closed to avoid the entire hassle? Has anyone suggested that you go closed to avoid being murdered indiscriminately?
More information is always better :)
This wasn't precisely what I was attempting to say, and I can see how this statement could be quite easily misconstrued. I want to be clear that I am not speaking for every thief, I have couched my generalities in statements like, "those I have spoken with" or "many thieves" etc.
You don't hide after theft, you've been open since you started, and you're training to be an assassin. Who have you assassinated? Who have you stolen from? Where do you hang out while being open to any and all conflict? Could your character being female have anything do with with other characters reactions to you?
Have you met anyone who has been cut down for being open? Met anyone who has since chosen to simply go closed to avoid the entire hassle? Has anyone suggested that you go closed to avoid being murdered indiscriminately?
More information is always better :)
MOOK1
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:48 PM CST
<<So, if we say you're right, but it's still not gonna change will you stop posting insanely long repetitions of the same thing?
I'm sure he gets joy out of repetition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiRUM_7T1I
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
I'm sure he gets joy out of repetition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiRUM_7T1I
-Evran
Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 04:57 PM CST
<<So, if we say you're right, but it's still not gonna change will you stop posting insanely long repetitions of the same thing?
This entire discussion would have been 2 pages tops if my opponents had dropped the personal attacks and actually addressed my core argument. Instead, it has gone something like this:
A: Your wrong
B: Why?
A: Because your stupid and selfish
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: It's not going to change anyway
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: Your stupid and whiny
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: Your wrong because <argument>
B: I conceded that, my argument is <argument>.
A: You're wrong
B: Why?
and on, and on. I don't know for certain that I'm right, it's very possible that I'm wrong. I have yet to see the argument to sway my opinion, though. I will continue restating my position if my opponents continue deliberately misunderstanding it. I don't want a cookie, I have an opinion and I'm here to defend it.
Keep your cookies, but thanks for the offer :)
This entire discussion would have been 2 pages tops if my opponents had dropped the personal attacks and actually addressed my core argument. Instead, it has gone something like this:
A: Your wrong
B: Why?
A: Because your stupid and selfish
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: It's not going to change anyway
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: Your stupid and whiny
B: What does that have to do with <argument>?
A: Your wrong because <argument>
B: I conceded that, my argument is <argument>.
A: You're wrong
B: Why?
and on, and on. I don't know for certain that I'm right, it's very possible that I'm wrong. I have yet to see the argument to sway my opinion, though. I will continue restating my position if my opponents continue deliberately misunderstanding it. I don't want a cookie, I have an opinion and I'm here to defend it.
Keep your cookies, but thanks for the offer :)
ASHBAUGHJ2
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 05:15 PM CST
Point to Evran, I think you nailed it.
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
SUBAI
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 05:34 PM CST
Ok, Bobthesnob (thief name I already forgot) I don't disagree with the whole didn't catch me so shouldn't be forced open for ANYONE to attack, but I honestly don't disagree with what anyone else has said either. As a mid-level thief myself (81st) I feel being called a thief is very narrowminded in the scope of our abilities. I won't say I never steal from anyone, but I don't think I can count five times in the past year that I have. I'd say I considered myself more interested in the assassination side of things. As someone else has pointed out already. Have I? Yes, many. Most probably before you started playing though. And most of them could probably destroy me now without even trying, but that's another story. There is nothing making you steal. Stealing DOES NOT DEFINE THE GUILD NO MATTER THE NAME. Stealing is an option, you are forcing your game-play on someone else. I don't like it, but it does seem fair that others should be allowed to force their's on you for a short period of time.
PS-Not hiding who I am, character and account name are the same.
<chant> "The monkey has the football..."
PS-Not hiding who I am, character and account name are the same.
<chant> "The monkey has the football..."
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 05:57 PM CST
>>I said that both were conflict, repeatedly, incessantly. Please get your quotes right.
Thanks, you've been arguing for nothing then if you did say this. Now let's get to the point of the matter.
If they're both conflict (you just stated it, regardless if caught or not), then what gives you the right to force conflict at any point you wish (by stealing) without letting others do the same? This is why you are shifted Open. Instead of rambling incoherently and coming up with half-baked-iam-victimized responses to logical questions and statements, please answer and address this paragraph.
At this point I'm starting to believe you're just being intellectually dishonest and unable to concede the point even if a divine being came and slapped you across the face.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Thanks, you've been arguing for nothing then if you did say this. Now let's get to the point of the matter.
If they're both conflict (you just stated it, regardless if caught or not), then what gives you the right to force conflict at any point you wish (by stealing) without letting others do the same? This is why you are shifted Open. Instead of rambling incoherently and coming up with half-baked-iam-victimized responses to logical questions and statements, please answer and address this paragraph.
At this point I'm starting to believe you're just being intellectually dishonest and unable to concede the point even if a divine being came and slapped you across the face.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 05:57 PM CST
Scrounger, here.
<<I don't like it, but it does seem fair that others should be allowed to force their's on you for a short period of time.
Anyone? At any time in the next four hours? Or the person you actually stole from, and whoever he/she lends consent to as champion? I am arguing for a return to actual conflict resolution, between the parties who actually have a conflict. This policy is an appeal to the greater good, moral to the core, and adds nothing to conflict resolution. In my opinion.
I know it's not the only thing that thieves can do, as I have discovered since I ceased entirely. My issue is with the blase attitude towards the unnecessary compounding of risk on top of an already existing framework for conflict resolution. You could be talking about any freedom, which has now been taken away, or made excessively expensive, and which you consider to be 'not much of a loss'. George Orwell expressed this progression by baby steps in his book Animal Farm, which I'm certain you all had to read in high school. I'm not saying DR is heading towards communism, but it does seem to be heading to a place synonymous with TF.
As more and more actions get folded into the "go open" category, with such bad arguments as "It is just making stealing from other characters inherently more risky. Such is the life of a criminal." (DRUHANL3), the thief class changes. It moves steadily away from image of a slick member of the underground who mingles freely with the crowd whilst liberating what he can get away with. You eventually become forced into assassination, while you merely think it's a choice you're making.
Once the change rolls in, the rhetoric turns to "its not gonna change anyway, so just live with it". I disagree with the change, I have expressed my reasons, and I have addressed the remainder of your points previously.
Thanks you for voicing your opinion!
>All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. ~ George Orwell
<<I don't like it, but it does seem fair that others should be allowed to force their's on you for a short period of time.
Anyone? At any time in the next four hours? Or the person you actually stole from, and whoever he/she lends consent to as champion? I am arguing for a return to actual conflict resolution, between the parties who actually have a conflict. This policy is an appeal to the greater good, moral to the core, and adds nothing to conflict resolution. In my opinion.
I know it's not the only thing that thieves can do, as I have discovered since I ceased entirely. My issue is with the blase attitude towards the unnecessary compounding of risk on top of an already existing framework for conflict resolution. You could be talking about any freedom, which has now been taken away, or made excessively expensive, and which you consider to be 'not much of a loss'. George Orwell expressed this progression by baby steps in his book Animal Farm, which I'm certain you all had to read in high school. I'm not saying DR is heading towards communism, but it does seem to be heading to a place synonymous with TF.
As more and more actions get folded into the "go open" category, with such bad arguments as "It is just making stealing from other characters inherently more risky. Such is the life of a criminal." (DRUHANL3), the thief class changes. It moves steadily away from image of a slick member of the underground who mingles freely with the crowd whilst liberating what he can get away with. You eventually become forced into assassination, while you merely think it's a choice you're making.
Once the change rolls in, the rhetoric turns to "its not gonna change anyway, so just live with it". I disagree with the change, I have expressed my reasons, and I have addressed the remainder of your points previously.
Thanks you for voicing your opinion!
>All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. ~ George Orwell
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 05:59 PM CST
<<without letting others do the same?
When did I say I wanted to be immune from theft?
<<you're just being intellectually dishonest
Thanks for that, I was wondering if the first half of your post was a serious departure from your normal character. Glad to see you slipped the ol' VEE in there at the end.
When did I say I wanted to be immune from theft?
<<you're just being intellectually dishonest
Thanks for that, I was wondering if the first half of your post was a serious departure from your normal character. Glad to see you slipped the ol' VEE in there at the end.
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 06:00 PM CST
>>Anyone?
Does the person you stole from get to choose who robs them? Or does anyone get to rob them?
Dude, you lost this one and are wrong. Face it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Does the person you stole from get to choose who robs them? Or does anyone get to rob them?
Dude, you lost this one and are wrong. Face it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
VEE-REX
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 06:05 PM CST
>>When did I say I wanted to be immune from theft?
Conflict? Weren't we talking about conflict? Here's your own words:
>>I said that both were conflict, repeatedly, incessantly. Please get your quotes right.
Both are conflict. You are forcing conflict on someone, so someone should be able to force conflict on you. This is not 1st grade.
>>Thanks for that, I was wondering if the first half of your post was a serious departure from your normal character. Glad to see you slipped the ol' VEE in there at the end.
Nah. I just like exposing how stupid arguments like yours are. And how you like twisting around to avoid answering my points. Will you answer that one paragraph? lol. Also, I play Vinjince. ;)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Conflict? Weren't we talking about conflict? Here's your own words:
>>I said that both were conflict, repeatedly, incessantly. Please get your quotes right.
Both are conflict. You are forcing conflict on someone, so someone should be able to force conflict on you. This is not 1st grade.
>>Thanks for that, I was wondering if the first half of your post was a serious departure from your normal character. Glad to see you slipped the ol' VEE in there at the end.
Nah. I just like exposing how stupid arguments like yours are. And how you like twisting around to avoid answering my points. Will you answer that one paragraph? lol. Also, I play Vinjince. ;)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SUBAI
Re: BOBTHESNOB5515 - Stop making the rest of us look bad
01/25/2011 06:06 PM CST
>>Does the person you stole from get to choose who robs them? Or does anyone get to rob them?
Exactly my point as well. Like I said, I don't like it, but I don't completely disagree with it either.
<chant> "The monkey has the football..."
Exactly my point as well. Like I said, I don't like it, but I don't completely disagree with it either.
<chant> "The monkey has the football..."
