Thieves need ambush <bodypart> back for backstab training, period. Without it, combat training and hunting selection are totally hamstrung. Easily less than half the monsters in the game are backstabbable, and most of those aren't great for hunting. It's well known that 4-legged monsters are the best trainers. Being limited to only upright monsters creates massive holes in the training ladder and promotes having to use different areas to train different combat skills, something no other guild is really limited by.
Please add this back in, it's absolutely necessary.
DERPTRON
BLUEFROG99
Re: Training Backstab
04/19/2015 05:10 AM CDT
Ambush stun trains backstab. Doesn't matter how many legs the thing has. It's not the only ambush that trains backstab, but it's my favorite.
"jab <bodypart>" (from hiding) and ambush choke both teach backstabbing, too, just not very well. There are, however, alternate options from the start, and 25th circle is not that distant a goal, without large gaps in the bipedal ladder.
"jab <bodypart>" (from hiding) and ambush choke both teach backstabbing, too, just not very well. There are, however, alternate options from the start, and 25th circle is not that distant a goal, without large gaps in the bipedal ladder.
NINEVAH1
Re: Training Backstab
04/19/2015 07:30 AM CDT
As BLUEFROG99 said, you can still attack <bodypart> from hiding and train backstabbing. It's how I train the skill. You have to make sure the bodypart is a challenge for you though, so go for eyes on critters that are at level while going for bigger parts when you first start a hunting ground.
DERPTRON
Re: Training Backstab
04/19/2015 09:56 AM CDT
>>As BLUEFROG99 said, you can still attack <bodypart> from hiding and train backstabbing. It's how I train the skill. You have to make sure the bodypart is a challenge for you though, so go for eyes on critters that are at level while going for bigger parts when you first start a hunting ground.
Yeah I get get to about 4/34 doing this, but I'm afraid the exp gain is just bottom of the barrel. Not to mention even if I "masterfully position" to attack a blood wolf's head, the attack will completely whiff the majority of the time anyway.
Ambush <bodypart> used to be a valid option to get to mind lock, not so much anymore. I just don't see "wait for ambush stun at lvl 25" as a great solution to the problem. My backstab suffers and it should really have better training methods as a primary attack skill analogous to TM for Warrior Mage.
Yeah I get get to about 4/34 doing this, but I'm afraid the exp gain is just bottom of the barrel. Not to mention even if I "masterfully position" to attack a blood wolf's head, the attack will completely whiff the majority of the time anyway.
Ambush <bodypart> used to be a valid option to get to mind lock, not so much anymore. I just don't see "wait for ambush stun at lvl 25" as a great solution to the problem. My backstab suffers and it should really have better training methods as a primary attack skill analogous to TM for Warrior Mage.
NINEVAH1
DERPTRON
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 07:09 AM CDT
72 in backstab and high 70s in all other combats
NINEVAH1
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 07:19 AM CDT
>>72 in backstab and high 70s in all other combats
There is your problem then. Blood wolves hard cap ~74-75 so you have learned about all you can from them, it's time to move to something harder. I stopped training TM there around the same ranks on my WM recently.
I recommend you head to Lang blood wolves as they are a fairly easy transition from Crossing blood wolves.
There is your problem then. Blood wolves hard cap ~74-75 so you have learned about all you can from them, it's time to move to something harder. I stopped training TM there around the same ranks on my WM recently.
I recommend you head to Lang blood wolves as they are a fairly easy transition from Crossing blood wolves.
DERPTRON
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 08:31 AM CDT
Sorry, I should have mentioned that I am in Lang blood wolves. Definitely locking evasion at 80 still and even beating me up a bit.
NINEVAH1
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 08:39 AM CDT
Thought that might be the case after I posted. In that case then my only advice is to play around till you find a body part that teaches the best, or to find a bi-ped to train it on. Wood trolls in Marauders might be ok to train on.
Ambush exp sucks pre 100 ranks or so, but it remains a viable way to train BS through the majority of your career.
Ambush exp sucks pre 100 ranks or so, but it remains a viable way to train BS through the majority of your career.
BADGOPHER
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 08:47 AM CDT
I've never found ambush to be a great way to train BS, but I can't remember having the problems you are. I think that critters stop teaching primary skills well before they stop teaching secondary/tert skills, just by the nature of pool size and drain rates (that is, primary has such a large pool and drains so quickly that it's difficult to fill the bucket, while tert has such a small drain and size that you can fill it).
I mean, I think backstab vs. ambush needs to be looked at, but that's kind of true for almost all of the thief-specific systems at this point. Grejuva, Ricinus, Armifer, and Raesh do an amazing job of producing content, but at the end of the day, there's only a handful of them.
I mean, I think backstab vs. ambush needs to be looked at, but that's kind of true for almost all of the thief-specific systems at this point. Grejuva, Ricinus, Armifer, and Raesh do an amazing job of producing content, but at the end of the day, there's only a handful of them.
DERPTRON
Re: Training Backstab
04/20/2015 09:17 AM CDT
Thanks for the replies. I will mess around with some different bodyparts and stick it out until ambush stun. Hopefully a GM wanders by and decides to take a peek at ambushing exp though.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Training Backstab
04/21/2015 10:48 AM CDT
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I use ambushing to train BS almost exclusively. I can't remember the last time I actually used BS to train the skill. It was forever ago. If you aren't learning, you aren't doing something right because it's doable. It may be difficult, but it's doable. There is sometimes a very fine line between what body part will teach, and what wont. Anymore I clout for bs/debil. I also perform most attacks from hiding when just starting on a new creature. Then I'll move up the chain of difficulty if I notice BS learning is slowing. It's not failed me yet. If you don't like difficult, Thieves aren't the way to go.
Yes it's tougher when low circle, but it's not impossible. I'll be happy to help in any way I can. Also for reference...
The difficulty to hit certain body parts - this goes for aiming ranged weapons as well as melee and ambushing - goes like this (easiest to hardest):
Leg (left/right)
Back
Abdomen
Chest
Arms (left/right)
Hands (left/right)
Neck
Head
Eye (left/right)
Beast Elec Drister
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
―Jayne Cobb
MM1 (EXW) -USN 1999-present
Yes it's tougher when low circle, but it's not impossible. I'll be happy to help in any way I can. Also for reference...
The difficulty to hit certain body parts - this goes for aiming ranged weapons as well as melee and ambushing - goes like this (easiest to hardest):
Leg (left/right)
Back
Abdomen
Chest
Arms (left/right)
Hands (left/right)
Neck
Head
Eye (left/right)
Beast Elec Drister
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
―Jayne Cobb
MM1 (EXW) -USN 1999-present
SLINGTOWN707
Re: Training Backstab
04/21/2015 11:31 AM CDT
I think its you just reaching caps. Make sure to be attacking body parts, using your ambush stun, slash etc. If you are doing all this and not learning its likely cause of the critter cap. At the lower circles you reach them often and the bigger you get the ranges on critters are wider. If you are in Langen, the vines are right there to hunt which is a good next step and deer, trolls down the trail aren't too far off. infact the lower tier deer you may even be able to handle. the mid i did around 125ish.
Just keep moving and know the bigger you get the more you will be able to hunt and select. i still love using the actualy backstab to train.
BADGOPHER
Re: Training Backstab
04/21/2015 11:55 AM CDT
In thinking more (I know, there's a first for everything) I think I found it easiest to lock BS by just using ambushes, after 3.1. Locked BS/debi and I just ran my normal combat script to deal with regular hunting exp. Worked a lot better than integrating the backstabbing or ambushes, for me.
NINEVAH1
Re: Training Backstab
04/21/2015 11:08 PM CDT
>>In thinking more (I know, there's a first for everything) I think I found it easiest to lock BS by just using ambushes, after 3.1. Locked BS/debi and I just ran my normal combat script to deal with regular hunting exp. Worked a lot better than integrating the backstabbing or ambushes, for me.
The only issue I have with this method is ambushes competing with khri for concentration. I personally run enough khri to keep me on the bleeding edge of keeping my concentration from tanking so using ambushes would just crash it. I'm high enough to run enough khri at once to train all magic skills at the same time though, so take it FWIW.
Training a Thief pre-50th circle is completely different than training past that point, it's hard to give training advice anymore.
The only issue I have with this method is ambushes competing with khri for concentration. I personally run enough khri to keep me on the bleeding edge of keeping my concentration from tanking so using ambushes would just crash it. I'm high enough to run enough khri at once to train all magic skills at the same time though, so take it FWIW.
Training a Thief pre-50th circle is completely different than training past that point, it's hard to give training advice anymore.
BADGOPHER
Re: Training Backstab
04/22/2015 06:39 AM CDT
>Training a Thief pre-50th circle is completely different than training past that point, it's hard to give training advice anymore.
I've probably made 10 thieves which I got to somewhere between 10th and 30th under 3.1, I mess around with a lot of low level characters.
Training a thief pre 30th (I'd say the breakpoint isn't even 50, it's 25-30) is honestly dreadfully simple. Train your combat like a trader. Lock backstab by either backstabbing or ambushing things. Train stealing, and use mark. Go off every hour and lock your magic by using focus and hasten combined with meditate. Don't waste your time with choke or debilitation.
Once you hit 50 ranks in aug/uti you can start training khri without sitting or needing to abuse meditate, so you can skip the specific training regimen. For me, that's around 15th (usually 13 or 14). Once you hit 25th circle, you can pick up ambush stun, and start training debilitation, which will also lock backstab; since debilitation should train well at-level, disregarding skill, it's easy to train.
Low level khri:
1: Focus
5: Hasten
10: Darken
15: Dealers choice, most of your options are tier 3; possible save this for 20.
20: Prowess, and if you saved your 15 slot plunder.
I've probably made 10 thieves which I got to somewhere between 10th and 30th under 3.1, I mess around with a lot of low level characters.
Training a thief pre 30th (I'd say the breakpoint isn't even 50, it's 25-30) is honestly dreadfully simple. Train your combat like a trader. Lock backstab by either backstabbing or ambushing things. Train stealing, and use mark. Go off every hour and lock your magic by using focus and hasten combined with meditate. Don't waste your time with choke or debilitation.
Once you hit 50 ranks in aug/uti you can start training khri without sitting or needing to abuse meditate, so you can skip the specific training regimen. For me, that's around 15th (usually 13 or 14). Once you hit 25th circle, you can pick up ambush stun, and start training debilitation, which will also lock backstab; since debilitation should train well at-level, disregarding skill, it's easy to train.
Low level khri:
1: Focus
5: Hasten
10: Darken
15: Dealers choice, most of your options are tier 3; possible save this for 20.
20: Prowess, and if you saved your 15 slot plunder.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Training Backstab
04/22/2015 10:29 AM CDT
I train all magics at once when hunting. When melee hunting I use hasten, focus, avoidance, strike, then use clout for debil.
When using ranged I use hasten, focus, avoidance, steady, and clout.
If training thrown I use the spar combo and clout.
This is what's effective and what works for me. I have a well balanced skill/stat set. I would STRONGLY urge you to get your disc up to a decent level before just pushing to run the big khri. You don't NEED them. And with how concentration regen works now, you'll be hamstringing yourself by not just being more conservative in your choices. Once you hit 300 concentration, you can run all those ones I mentioned before from start to finish without running out of juice. Until that point, I still just put them up over and over and over. Even though I'm well beyond the NEED for those basic khri, they work. So why change it? YMMV.
Beast Elec Drister
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
―Jayne Cobb
MM1 (EXW) -USN 1999-present
When using ranged I use hasten, focus, avoidance, steady, and clout.
If training thrown I use the spar combo and clout.
This is what's effective and what works for me. I have a well balanced skill/stat set. I would STRONGLY urge you to get your disc up to a decent level before just pushing to run the big khri. You don't NEED them. And with how concentration regen works now, you'll be hamstringing yourself by not just being more conservative in your choices. Once you hit 300 concentration, you can run all those ones I mentioned before from start to finish without running out of juice. Until that point, I still just put them up over and over and over. Even though I'm well beyond the NEED for those basic khri, they work. So why change it? YMMV.
Beast Elec Drister
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
―Jayne Cobb
MM1 (EXW) -USN 1999-present
DERPTRON
Re: Training Backstab
04/23/2015 08:02 PM CDT
Thought I'd share the method that worked for me, in case any other thieves have the same problem.
For me, at about 73 bs ranks on Lang blood wolves, I have to Ambush their eyes, regardless of success or not. Fails on eye give me more exp than "masterful position" on their chests. Doing this, I can mind lock backstab. I have to stop targeting the eye if I want to start learning weapon though.
For me, at about 73 bs ranks on Lang blood wolves, I have to Ambush their eyes, regardless of success or not. Fails on eye give me more exp than "masterful position" on their chests. Doing this, I can mind lock backstab. I have to stop targeting the eye if I want to start learning weapon though.
NINEVAH1
Re: Training Backstab
04/23/2015 10:30 PM CDT
>>I have to stop targeting the eye if I want to start learning weapon though.
That's going to be status quo when using ambush to train BS.
That's going to be status quo when using ambush to train BS.
