So right now I feel like Backstab RTs between ME and LE are in a really weird space.

With ME its 3 seconds, with LE its about 75% 3 and 25% 2.

Simple enough I'd just really like to see LE dropped to 2 seconds 100% of the time.

Also as far as weapons being "use-able" for backstab; after the mid-game there is just not enough difference between LE and ME.

ME is a lot more damage.

LE is probably more accurate on paper, but when you're rolling with capped khri, 5+ confidence and 100 in agility there's not going to be an accuracy issue, so there's no reason to use LE.

I keep thinking back to something like having LE's do 20% armor piercing against metal armors or something like that.

To be fair it is nice that with hasten you can potentially get a 1 second BS with an LE but you need to proc both the 25% and hasten's 15% at the same time for this to happen. I'm no math-wizard but... them odds is low.

Also I know everyone is busy and changes have been talked about in a high-level someday way, but I just wanted to post anyway.

Dropping the RT would help quite a bit, and that would take hardly any coding at all (or maybe it would I really don't know).

TLDR: As it sits right now I take out my LE weapons and use them a few times and then shake my head and immediately go back to using my MEs. Really wish there was more incentive.

Thanks.

Thanks for the reply!

Guess you aren't ready to clue us in on details for the proposals, and that's just fine, I'd just like to suggest that the plan be more than just "LE is more accurate and/or slightly faster".

The more I think about it, the more I think it has to be some kind of a situational thing that involves more damage (or armor/barrier bypassing). Like VS heavy armor. Or VS a stunned opponent. Or VS barrier (MPP, MAF, Saga, etcetera).

>"And lastly, there has been some discussion on making armor less effective across the board to provide some legroom for barriers and higher Tier armor. Cloth is currently a 50% damage reduction in most cases, which does seem a bit high. Perhaps some kind of +15% hit points, -10% armor tradeoff. In that case it would make LE a bit better in comparison across the board..."

I'd actually be 100% for this if all armors became a lot less hindering to both defenses and stealth, also the mixing penalty has to go away. But I guess in your plan that would just make everyone move up to better armor and that would mitigate any damage reduction nerf, but in my head that's even more perfect incentive to make lighter weapons better against armor.

Thanks again.

>>What critters are you hunting that you would gain an advantage hunting using armor/barrier pierce on LE?

Assassins, intercessors, cabalists... dunno if archons and wyverns really have "armor" or just thick-hides.

But mostly I was thinking of hunting people, lots of which have lots of barriers and armor (which yes I realize is up for re-writting, so this might just be moot).

Like I said, it would be situaltional. Here comes Bob the ranger in his leathers I'll stab him with my ME. Here comes Jon the Paladin, I'll use my LE to stick into the joints of his armor until his limbs come off. Oh look theres a Boar boss critter, I'll use my ME... Oh look there's a champion intercessor in plate, I'll use my LE.

I dunno, I'm not saying balance is my strong suit, and hey I've never made a game (well ok I have, but it doesn't have any combat).

I'm just not sure what else LE could do that would make it more inciting, I'm really just kinda spit-balling here.

Maybe instead of an armor/barrier pierce functioning as +damage it could be a armor debuff or... extra internal wounds, something!

p.s...I really need an edit button.

> And lastly, there has been some discussion on making armor less effective across the board to provide some legroom for barriers and higher Tier armor. Cloth is currently a 50% damage reduction in most cases, which does seem a bit high. Perhaps some kind of +15% hit points, -10% armor tradeoff. In that case it would make LE a bit better in comparison across the board...

trading armor and HP would be a start, but the total invested RT of hiding/backstabbing would still make heavier ME weapons an obvious choice. I think backstab should have a damage bonus that gains some kind of benefit from using smaller, lighter, and or more balanced weapons. Enough of a bonus to balance it with the damage standard ME weapons do.

> I'm not at your level of ranks, but my follow up backstabs hit much harder than my haralun scimitar, using a glaes thrusting blade to BS. I wouldn't mind a reduction in RT when using ME to backstab, but I don't see the gap in backstab damage vs ME damage in ME's favor.

The conversation is about backstab with a LE vs backstab with a ME..

I have no idea why thieves are specifically a 'melee only' class while every other guild isn't? Thieves have the same number of ranged weapon perks as any other guild, as far as I know, and aside from backstab and clout/stun, don't have to be at melee or any other specific range?

Mind explaining that for me?

>Nope, you can go do the research yourself.

So you have no reasons.

The GMs aren't super-sleuths and devote their care and attention to multiple guilds/systems. Posting some idiotic oblique rant isn't going to get help.

Know what gets help?

Details. Extremely detailed details. Facts. Stuff the GMs can use to say 'woah, that is broken!', not some half drunken rant that doesn't even pass a quick review (thieves as melee only but no one else..? Hi snipe and extra throwing blades and ambush screen and sight).

>You misunderstand the purpose of my post

No. I questioned the entire purpose of it as to why you state thieves are a melee only guild for some reason, while every other guild is not.

>anything beyond that just goes to feeding the trolls.

I'm sorry, but disagreeing with you doesn't qualify someone as trolling. Especially when they've been asking you to explain what you posted with some actual answer and your only response has been, to paraphrase, 'nuhuh, you'.

>Don't you have some knowledgeable DR friend you can go annoy for that answer?

I'm asking the person who brought it up.

>Answering that question is not going to increase the chance of this exploit being fixed, so ive little interest in helping you.

And not answering it simply makes you look like someone off on a drunken ramble with no actual problem except the one he imagined. I'll ask for the fourth time, why is this a thief problem.

Ambush slash and sight can be used at range?

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

No doubt we're at the short end of the stick here but it would still probably be better addressed as a general combat complaint. There's a chance that GMs responsible for these systems never even visit our boards. Of course given the frequency and magnitude of this abuse i wouldn't expect a quick fix since there are other/better ways to avoid confrontation than hiding in combat - no-violence areas etc. Unless you just plain want to gank someone who is hunting.

But to continue on the topic in relation to thieves, i guess non of our strengths work in favor of a firefight these days? Other than snipe, but that's more of a defensive measure. I remember in the glory days when we had khri snipe which was probably the most powerful ranged boost ever to exist in DR but since it was taken away we never really had anything to fill that void.

To list some advantages in ranged combat for each guild:

+ Ranger - dual load/snipe/probably some kind of a boost?
+ Barbarian - dual load/weapon primary/weapon boosters
+ War Mage - super powerful tm based spells
+ Moon Mage - super powerful tm based spells
+ Cleric - super powerful tm based spells
+ Bard - super powerful tm based spells?
> thieves - snipe, khri steady
- Paladin - no idea? a sitting duck
- Trader - better hire a hitman
- Empath - stick to healing

Correct me if i'm wrong but we fall in along with the bottom feeders in this category.

>I don't feel weak at ranged in the least. I wish that ambushes had a bit more ranged options but the debilitation khri help a bit.

I think the real problem is that we don't have access to a primary-offensive tool we can spam infinitely and instantly at any range, like a TM spell. Our debilitators require melee, or hiding, or both. Our 'power' attacks require hiding. Both require you to spend at least a moment in the room. And we can't spam a debilitation and an offensive move at the same time from ranged (cast stun, throw weapons).

So now that someone has explained what le idiot meant, I get it.

I don't disagree with what is being asked. The engagement system needs work all around, but it is not Thieves only problem.

I'll agree that Thieves are geared towards melee, but the argument that we're melee only is false.

Using hyperbole to get something changed isn't very useful.

>Also, a truly skilled thief does fall at the top of the PvP pile.

Just wait until I have more TM.

> I feel what you are getting at, and you aren't wrong, but I also remember that aim;snipe chest was the Thief goto in 2.0 and that you got more than your fair use out of it.

Sorry i don't remember you.. but i think i understand where yer coming from.
Cliff notes: I murdered you at some point, now yer super butthurt.