I'm still hoping that someday someone could be convinced that our ambushes need a little more... potency*.

TL;DR: Re-read the Subject line and then the entire post, or don't.

Here's the list of what each ambush is and its description, followed by what I think it does, and then my suggestions as to what I think it could do better.
Forgive me if any of my information is wrong; blame PAFO (and LMFAO) and inconsistencies between what happened in 3.0 and 3.1 test and 3.1 live (prime).

I was going to include Prowess and Guile, but honestly I'm just about as tired of writing this as you (generic you) probably already are of reading this.

Please feel free to respond with comments as to how wrong I am, how I fail to understand anything, and know nothing about the mechanics of any game ever made. Or, you** know, actual constructive comments, maybe. Just don't correct my grammar or spelling. Just kidding, because obviously I can't really stop you (still generic you). If any of that sounded not tongue in cheek, try reading it again or possibly leave to work on your (you guessed it still generic you, only your this time) miniature zen garden.

*I'm not actually saying potency, I'm doing the hand and arm gesture where you make a fist and flex while curling your bicep with a little bit of a grimace. That is what they need.
**I don't think that one is a generic you because it's not actually you (generic you) it's the idiom: "you know", you know.

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!!Serious business starts below here!!

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AMBUSH STUN: Done from hiding, will attempt to give the opponent a nasty crack on the head that has the potential to knock them completely unconscious. Requires special equipment or a blunt instrument.
Minor Success = 3-5 second stun, no knockdown.
Standard Success = 5-10 second stun + knockdown
Major Success = Sleep, Can auto-break, Can break on missed attacks, Can break on damage. Seems to be something like 90/95/100% chance to break from 1st/2nd/3rd attack.

Suggestions: Add a fixed minimum duration on sleep, knockdown on all stuns. Adjust all stun lengths to be more in line with other guilds' stun spells/abilities.

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AMBUSH SLASH: Done from hiding, will attempt to cut the back of the opponent's leg in order to keep them in place, and perhaps drop then to their knees. Requires a sharp instrument and possibly a great deal of strength.
Minor Success = ? Not sure there is one.
Standard Success = 5 seconds of no retreating.
Major Success = The above + knockdown

Suggestions: Move the debuff to minor, move the knockdown to standard, add tiered leg damage to each success with possible amputation/crippling to major. Increase no retreating debuff tiered to 5/10/20 seconds.

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AMBUSH CHOKE: Done from hiding, will attempt to throw dirt in at a target's nose and mouth, which can lessen their stamina if inhaled. If you're stealthy, you will vanish after the strike.
Minor Success = Not sure there is one.
Standard Success = Short stamina debuff
Major Success = Slightly longer stamina debuff.

Suggestions: Adjust so there's three success levels. Make debuff longer and much stronger across all successes something like 5/10/20 seconds and -stamina points.

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AMBUSH SCREEN: A technique to surround oneself with dirt, blinding and disorienting nearby foes, as well as revealing any who may be trying to lurk near you. If you're stealthy, you will vanish after the attack. Can be done in and out of hiding.
Pass/Fail. Pass = ~20 seconds of random 3-5 RT (CvC only) and moderate perception debuff.
Suggestions: Build out to three tiers of successes with increasingly longer durations and strength of debuff.

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AMBUSH CLOUT: An modified version of STUN, special training allows the skilled Thief to cause a loss of concentration without doing any physical damage to them. Requires an empty hand, and some skill at unarmed combat is advised.
Minor Success = Don't think there is one.
Standard Success = Don't think there is one.
Major Success = Upfront concentration drain plus debuff of concentration loss per drain.

Suggestions: Build out to three tiers of successes with increasingly longer durations and drain/pulse drain.
Side note: This ability seems to be only a fraction of as strong as it was in 3.1 test. Possible Bug?

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AMBUSH IGNITE: Done from hiding, will attempt to douse and ignite naphtha on a target. Requires a sharp instrument in your right hand, some naphtha in your left hand, and at least 1 coin on you to help with creating a spark.
Pass/Fail (with a chance to fail even on a pass). Pass = Random body part hit with naphtha and ignited.

Suggestions: Build out to three tiers of successes with increasingly more body parts ignited and/or bonus to burn damage and/or duration/persistence of fire (harder to put out).
Side note: This ability is horrible right now because the only naphtha available is potency level 1. Please adjust store bought naphtha to be more in the range of potency 30. Compared to what eventually will be made with alchemy being potency 70-100.

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>Is the rate for a major or minor success pretty consistent for those abilities that do have all three tiers? Does it vary from skill to skill?

Unfortunately for our ambushes which I honestly believe have more skill checks and RNG rolls than anything else in the game... they are all very random.

Against something even "somewhat poorly" if I ambush 100 times its like a perfect spread of Miss (no hit), Hit (no effect), Minor, Standard, Major. And really nothing matters, not my balance, not the targets balance, not my wounds, not the targets wounds, stunned or not stunned. Still just a crap shoot.

Also I wanted to mention something for people saying, "Oh just train more Deb ranks."
My response to them is: The skill doesn't work like that.

> Unless you are interested in getting better results from your ambushes. There's some other issues about the system I'm not completely happy with right now, but some of the issues you mention can be directly fixed by having more ranks, so please don't discount it entirely, or encourage others to do the same.

Fixing our problem by outranking our opponent is not a valid bandaid for ambushes being novelty toys at best. The ambushes have so much potential to make thief a versatile and fun class, but we just.. aren't there yet. So long as ambushes don't work well at level, they won't be used for anything other than a way to remedy boredom when fighting people we morbidly outclass.

ambush ignite could be a very cool tool if groomed right, other than naphtha being potency 1, i could see higher level ambush ignite success having larger benefits, like the naphtha splashing multiple places. (splashing up the arm and onto the chest) Or some of the naphtha could get into the armor, in the eyes, etc. There are always going to be areas of the body that aren't covered with armor, even if they are small, they aren't too small to get burned to a crisp.

In both test and live I've tested using exp switch to change my Deb to my first supernatural and back.

That's a difference of more than 300 ranks.

Every time it's made zero impact.

Why? Because the problem is the SvS contest.

Which PAFO has taught me does not use Deb ranks at all.

Sorry if that wasn't more clear.

<< most thief ambushes require a huge win in the SvS contest to provide any benefit that merits picking it over repeatedly backstabbing.

I don't know, regardless of success rate i don't see why anyone would bother to ambush instead of backstabbing straightaway. With backstab you get a huge damage potential, it will in most cases result in a decent duration stun and it does not rely on a tertiary skill set. It's a win/win/win.

<< AMBUSH SLASH: Move the debuff to minor, move the knockdown to standard, add tiered leg damage to each success with possible amputation/crippling to major. Increase no retreating debuff tiered to 5/10/20 seconds.

I agree it has to be more than a retreat penalty or i mean, it has to be anything but a retreat penalty. We already have a globally affected retreat penalty in place for PVP and it doesn't matter in PVE. Technically if you play your cards right, it might even be more beneficial to have your target retreating from you and thus making him an easier target.

<< Because ambushes are supposed to be thief style debuffs, ergo should apply more effective penalties than a stun and lots of damage.

I suppose the ranks aren't there yet to allow gathering any good empirical evidence but i still went out and tried ambush stun. The results were pretty random as LHALLFIN explained in the original post. I managed to miss, i got ~5 second stuns and i did see 10+ second long sleep. So there's that.

I'm pretty sure i can land a 5 second stun along with backstab and i don't even know what i'm supposed to do while my target is asleep. Run away like a little girl? Just go ahead and backstab anyway?

I'm not seeing how it can work on paper but maybe i'm just not creative enough to put that stuff to a good use. In my opinion the ambushes always were a guild gimmick and they still are. Only difference is that now we can use them for training, which is a big bonus in itself though.

When I put together all the Thief stuff, my attempts to incorporate as many of the old effects as possible may have ended up doing a disservice to you folks. The case of Ambush stun is a good example, since having it produce a sleep instead of a stun at the high end pretty much eliminates the possibility of a high end stun occurring.

Anyways, I've taken the unconscious possibility out of Stun for now, so we can see how that goes. It now only does stuns.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

I'd still really like a way to train debil that didn't require hiding or 400 ranks in debil. I hate having to depend entirely on stealth to train debil.

Would be really nice if choke/screen were refreshable with diminishing returns; the standard spell debil trainers don't have diminishing returns OR refresh issues. My noob thief simply couldn't train debil at all short of sitting in a class for it. 1 mindstate per critter requires a lot of micromanagement and effort for minimal/crap return.

In PVE, the biggest problem with ambushes for me is the lack of flexibility. Ambush clout was my favorite thing ever for just a general debilitator--I could always use it because it just requires one free hand. Clout is theoretically superb for PVP and that's lovely, but I really miss having a go-to for backtraining or just "hey ow stop hitting me so much." The effect of stun is good, but it only works with a few of my weapons. Just a little sad.

I think guile could be good except it's such a high concentration cost for so little return. I need more debil ranks to really use that, but that leaves me at 70-somethingth circle with no general-use debilitation.

Well i briefly ran into Wyverns and tried a few quick things.

The easiest wyverns, i couldnt get any ambushes off unbuffed, and could get the odd minor success with ambush screen, but nothing with any of the others.

I am hunting the Juvenile wyverns with no problem, and i obviously have no success with ambushed against them.

I capped resuctients a while ago, but i'll run up there and see how i go with them a little later.

So from quickly testing what ive tested, i havnt seen any improvments, and im seeing that the ambushes are still difficult to get success at LvL.

Rifkinn