You're pretty accurate. Personally, I find Thievery to serve no purpose other than a Circling restraint. A skill I must go out of my way to train in order to circle. Every item I am capable of stealing I can easily acquire through normal hunting, which is something I have to do to advance in the Guild anyways. Stealing from PCs is rather useless as only bot Traders carry a ton of coin on them, and most people have Perception that highly outranks the Thievery of most thieves and always will.

I do like the fact that you can choose the role of an Assassin over a pure Thief, and in fact that option is why I chose the guild originally for my character, and most certainly have portrayed more of a killer than a thief.

However, Thievery is meant to be the crux of the guild and it needs to be utilized more. Your idea for a Breaking and Entering system is probably exactly what the guild needs. The only problem I see is it's somewhat immersion breaking if it exists like the Museum where the same place is looted day in and day out.

A more ideal system would have Thieves scouring neighborhoods for Homes, each neighborhood with a certain difficulty, and using skills like Perception they would find randomized (locked)entryways that would act as portals to a listing of leveled houses with randomly generated loot to steal. To keep Thieves from burgalizing all of Crossing/Shard/Theren/Etc they could institute timers and a "Heat" system that could cause the guards to scour the city and catch them or bring negative reactions from the Guild if they ruin it for everyone. This type of limitation would also allow for rare random drops in homes such as rare scrolls, ores, etc.

But, like you said, not sure who would program such a thing as it would be a large undertaking.

>>...having stealing from players automatically flag you for pvp is a complete and total deterrant for wanting to even train this skill anymore for me...

Working as Intended. Your idea of fun is victimizing people with little to no recourse for you. You don't like the reverse. I can't imagine why.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

Hint: Understanding you != agreeing with you. Every poster thus far has understood what you mean. Most just also think you're fairly transparent in hiding what you really want.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>I'm not expecting, nor do i want stealing to be so rediculously easy that i can rob anyone i want with little to no repercussions. I'm looking for a happy medium. Like krooner said, people worked hard for their coin, it would be wrong to be able to take that away from them without proper penalties. We are a guild of THIEVES after all. Why gimp our most defining ability?

And how is opening you for retaliation not a proper penalty? What "proper" penalty would you propose in its place?

>Also considering how easy it is (and has been for years) to train perception now, I can't understand how you would call it "not balanced."

Because the only defense a player gets is...perception.

Theives control every single possible other variable. Location, armor, buffs, victim, and mark even gives them a targetting guide. It's not balanced because the entire risk factor is on the victim. If you steal from someone you get A) stealing B) stealth (both are so small as to be pointless), C) their wealth/items. If you fail, you get...nothing.

If the victim 'wins' the stealing contest, they get..nothing. If they fail, they lose things. That's not a balanced risk situation, especially given how a thief can stack the deck and then choose the target.

If failing a stealing attempt means losing copper/bronze/silver/gold/gem just the same as winning it would have meant, then it would still be a jacked up contest because the theif still gets to choose who to steal from, how to stack his deck, and so on.

>I happen to enjoy Player Stealing more than any other system in the game.

So...controlled griefing is your thing?

---

Pants.

Being locked Open means from stealing from other players means the entire player-base for the game can "control every single possible other variable" of every other interaction you have. Seems reasonable to me.

>>Because the only defense a player gets is...perception.

This statement is just blatantly wrong. This entire list can be done without training a single skill even. You can:

1. Carry small denominations of coins
2. Use banks
3. Hang out in one of the hundreds of No Stealing rooms
4. Tie gem pouches
5. Put open gem pouches inside of other containers to protect "special gems"
6. Moneybelt

If you're losing significant amounts of coin from stealing, it's your own fault. If you want to carry tons of platinum around as platinum, then you can train perception.

>>So...controlled griefing is your thing?

Yes. I like CvC, I like taking risks against other players, but I also play Open so "controlled" isn't exactly accurate.

If you do the crime, you do the time. People don't like to get stolen from. You don't like to potentially get attacked out of nowhere. It balances out :)

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

Oh, also: between your stealth buffs, invisibility, tools like Khri Vanish or Khri Sensing, and MARK, you have very powerful tools at your disposal to selectively pick your targets and locations to minimize risk, and then to remove yourself from the area if things go awry.

>>No? Then yes, you are engaging in selective, controlled, CvC, engaged at your will and whim. Being open or not doesn't really have much to do with it.

Except being Open means you're OK with uncontrolled unprovoked CvC all the time, which has everything to do with it.

I'm not saying the OP is right that thievery should be easier or have less consequences. I think the current consequences of stealing (being locked open) are fitting and appropriate. When someone makes a broad statement that a system is so broken it should be removed I feel that it's necessary to point out that just because you feel this way doesn't make it true. Other people have other opinions on it.

>Shop stealing, breaking and entering systems, Museum-style 'mini quest' stealing experiences, and things like that are great. They should be expanded on, because they're fun.

This. Not really a complaint, more of a request. I'd love for stuff like that.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>>You may be a chivalrous and dutiful Thief with a code of honor, but not all players are. Many Thieves would deliberately and target and harass players like unbonded low-level Empaths who have no possible choice of retaliation, and then hide behind policy when someone tried to intervene.

That is probably the most sensible thing i've gotten out of this thread. I can totally understand that, and will acknowledge my own narrow mindedness. I remember when i was starting out, one in particular, Celesi, was constantly plaguing the crate in Riverhaven...I do try to find a good balance between being a thief and being a decent citizen (if that's possible). I try not to steal from the same person twice, try not to haunt the same areas constantly, but i know not everyone can restrain themselves. My fault was remembering how stealing was, but not remembering how consent laws used to be. Those 2 systems definitely did not mesh well. With that in mind, i cannot think of a way to improve upon this without resulting in policy manipulators using the system to their benefit. I appologize for being defensive, i just wish good systems wouldnt be ruined by bad people. Happens in real life all the time, so it stands to reason it can happen in Elanthia.

>>.I do try to find a good balance between being a thief and being a decent citizen (if that's possible). I try not to steal from the same person twice, try not to haunt the same areas constantly, but i know not everyone can restrain themselves.

If you follow these rules, have good stealth skills, and don't blatantly announce your presence my talking from hiding and such, you will find that you can often steal from PCs with little consequence if you are selective in your targets and get out of the area quietly once the deed is done.

>>My fault was remembering how stealing was, but not remembering how consent laws used to be. Those 2 systems definitely did not mesh well. With that in mind, i cannot think of a way to improve upon this without resulting in policy manipulators using the system to their benefit.

It's sad that the system has come to this, I agree, but it's not a failing of yours that you cannot come up with a reasonable alternative, because one doesn't exist. The only way to make sure that people don't policy-play with theft is simply to set them open and completely remove any protection provided by the very intricate rules of consent.

At first,I thought having to be locked open PVP was the end of my cvc stealing days... and Like you said, "ruined" stealing. (insert moans and groans here) I've come to accept being locked open now as it adds to the excitement of being a thief, and taking risks. Bigger risks than before. It's really not that big of a deal unless you are a policy player and someone who reports to the GM's every time you're shot at. if you're not that, then being locked open changes very little when it comes to player stealing. Yes, if you steal from someone too low to relatiate themselves, they can get a higher circle person to do the job for them, but I have found that RARELY does someone walk up to me and just slay me for absolutely no reason. They are either working on someone's behalf, or I've had some kind of conflict with them. Not much different than it use to be actually.

If you cause a conflict, you have to be prepared to face the consequences of it. Is it "realistic" that when you steal from someone, only they can relatiate against you?? No not really. And even before the "locked open" status, I found that people would get their higher circle friends to chase me down and kill me, or attempt to do so. So what has changed? Only the fact that you can't whine to the GM's about it which you really should not be doing anyway if you are engaging in PvP stealing.

When I do a player stealing run in the Crossings, I typically make 20-30 plats in under 5 minutes. It's by far the most lucrative activity per time spent, though there's a long cooldown on it. I'd make a killing doing it, except for I'm almost never in the Crossings. And this is with a modest 500ish in Thievery.

It's a system I greatly enjoy, though I do wish for more applications similar to the museum. I also wish they would make more things stealable. It's annoying to go into a shop and not be able to steal the items being sold.

Always amusing when you change the name of the person every time except once.

>Always amusing when you change the name of the person every time except once.

ha ha, well lets try this again shall we?

I'm set to OPEN Pvp and I do cvc steal. It doesn't always end in my death, sometimes you get a tip! (character name changed to protect the innocent)

---

Ascender EasyMark's group just arrived.

!>hi
You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
!HR>steal jadice pollen
Your armor is hindering your abilities.
Moving stealthily, you manage to grab some jadice pollen right from underneath Empath

Yorgi's very nose.
You don't feel you learned anything useful from this trivial theft.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
!HR>

!HR>stow poll
You come out of hiding.
You put your pollen in your highwayman's pack.

EasyMark throws back his head and roars with laughter!
!>
EasyMark says, "Thats what ye get fer rippin me off Yorgi."
!>
EasyMark says, "Ye bastage."

!>'something funny?
You ask, "Something funny?"
!>
EasyMark says, "Aye."

!>grin
You grin.
!>
You feel an itching sensation in your chest.
You feel a lot better.

>'You got ripped off too eh?
You ask, "You got ripped off too eh?"

>sear
You search around for a moment.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
You don't find anything of interest here.

(Insert thiefly sizing up ability here, blind as a bat.)
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
EasyMark says, "I think my pockets er ok."

>steal EasyMark
There's no crowd here. You had best hide at least.

>hi
You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

HR>steal EasyMark
You silently work your way toward EasyMark.
H>
Your armor is hindering your abilities.
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into EasyMark's pockets and carefully grab a few plat, a gold, a few silvers, and a few bronze.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
HR>
EasyMark says, "I dun ave any enemies I know of."
H>weal

Debt:
You owe 2 silver, 8 bronze, and 8 copper Kronars to the Principality of Zoluren. (288

copper Kronars)
You owe 9 gold Dokoras to the Domain of Ilithi. (9000 copper Dokoras)
You owe 1 platinum Lirums to the Collection of Qi. (10000 copper Lirums)

Wealth:
7 silver, 2 bronze, and 6 copper Kronars (726 copper Kronars).
5 platinum, 3 gold, 17 silver, 8 bronze, and 10 copper Lirums (54790 copper Lirums).
8 silver, and 2 copper Dokoras (802 copper Dokoras).

(I did have some coin on me but still a nice grab)
H>
EasyMark says, "Or maybe not."
H>
EasyMark chuckles.

H>Steal Easy
You silently work your way toward EasyMark.
H>

H>
Your armor is hindering your abilities.
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into EasyMark's pockets and carefully grab some lantholite stones.
Roundtime: 1 sec.

HR>
EasyMark says, "Ye good at what ye do."

H>unhi
You come out of hiding.
>'he sure is.
You say, "He sure is."
>
EasyMark winks at you.

>'he got all my coins.
You say, "He got all my coins."

>grumble
You grumble.
>
EasyMark says, "Be well Shay."

>slip stones in my pack
You silently slip some lantholite stones into your highwayman's pack.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

R>'you too
You say, "You too."
R>
EasyMark applauds enthusiastically and flips a gold Lirum in your direction. You snatch it nimbly from the air!

>'Oh nice
You say, "Oh nice."

>'a tip just for being savvy eh?
You ask, "A tip just for being savvy eh?"
>weal

Debt:
You owe 2 silver, 8 bronze, and 8 copper Kronars to the Principality of Zoluren. (288

copper Kronars)
You owe 9 gold Dokoras to the Domain of Ilithi. (9000 copper Dokoras)
You owe 1 platinum Lirums to the Collection of Qi. (10000 copper Lirums)

Wealth:
7 silver, 2 bronze, and 6 copper Kronars (726 copper Kronars).
5 platinum, 4 gold, 17 silver, 8 bronze, and 10 copper Lirums (55790 copper Lirums).
8 silver, and 2 copper Dokoras (802 copper Dokoras).

(and another gold coin to add to the collection)
>
EasyMark says, "Fer tha entertainment, an teachin me ta train me eyes better."
>
>
EasyMark nods to you.

>laugh
You laugh!
>
EasyMark waves.

>'well I'm awfully good at those lessons
>
You say, "Well I'm awfully good at those lessons."
>
Ascender EasyMark goes out, leading his group.

>But don't fear IG death. Doesn't mean a thing.

It is honestly annoying to lose my field exp, and have to stand around like a putz waiting for vit/etc. to refill, but you're right. IG death is an inconvenience at most.

---

Pants.

Sorry to half rez an old thread and probably repeat something suggested before, but I think a real cool robbery angle could work like mining, only in the cities. Some sort of scout street by street and hit certain places with certain messaging for burglary and random "digs."

Yep, nice suggestion. Thievery needs more applications.