I've started a new thief and with the starter 4 ranks in backstabbing it seems almost impossible to actual move backstabbing. Ambushing only seems to get me to dabbling and whenever I try to actually backstab I get this message:
You leap from hiding to attack a sleazy lout, but you mistime your attack badly and wind up swinging at empty air.
Roundtime: 5 seconds
Am I doing something wrong? If it matters, I've tried with both the storebought short sword and dagger and have 13 Agility
Any help is appreciated.
JACOBSJ27
TEVESHSZAT
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/09/2013 08:39 PM CST
>>Am I doing something wrong?
Starting off in louts instead of ship rats might be causing you some trouble.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
Starting off in louts instead of ship rats might be causing you some trouble.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
MAGE-WARRIOR
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/09/2013 08:48 PM CST
I found it easier to backstab with my newbie thief if I took off all my armor. Having no hindrance at all made the difference in hitting louts and really helped me learn.
JACOBSJ27
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/09/2013 08:49 PM CST
Is it a weapon issue? I have no trouble hitting or killing louts, I have 11 ranks in Small Edged currently - the only time any issue arises is when I actually try to backstab, I have no trouble hitting with the ambush command either but it doesn't teach on every hit or ever more than dabbling.
JACOBSJ27
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/09/2013 08:51 PM CST
>> I found it easier to backstab with my newbie thief if I took off all my armor. Having no hindrance at all made the difference in hitting louts and really helped me learn.
Right after I posted initially I thought I should try that as well, I even tried dropping it to make sure I had no encumbrance but it made no difference; I received the same exact message.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/09/2013 09:40 PM CST
>Is it a weapon issue? I have no trouble hitting or killing louts, I have 11 ranks in Small Edged currently - the only time any issue arises is when I actually try to backstab, I have no trouble hitting with the ambush command either but it doesn't teach on every hit or ever more than dabbling.
BS works like/as a weapon skill.
Try going to rats, and ambushing body parts to get ranks. Once it's near combat level, you'll do better.
Pants.
BS works like/as a weapon skill.
Try going to rats, and ambushing body parts to get ranks. Once it's near combat level, you'll do better.
Pants.
PEICHAR
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/11/2013 03:59 PM CST
As far as I know, the "ambush <body part>" wasn't adjusted to fix the issues people were having with learning backstab rates. Only "backstab" learning was fixed. That said, you should be able to learn some in rats if you hide, attack <neck>, repeat. Try to select the bodypart that gives you messaging about "masterfully" ambushing your prey or something like that.
If you want to continue with louts, try checking your hindrances. A shield really makes it harder to hide, so while backstabbing you might want to stow it. Check encumbrances and balance also.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
If you want to continue with louts, try checking your hindrances. A shield really makes it harder to hide, so while backstabbing you might want to stow it. Check encumbrances and balance also.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
LHALLFIN
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/11/2013 08:35 PM CST
>As far as I know, the "ambush <body part>" wasn't adjusted to fix the issues people were having with learning backstab rates. Only "backstab" learning was fixed.
As far as I can tell, that is still correct, Soch and Kod didn't even seem aware that most thieves have been using attack <body part> from hiding to train backstab, but did increase the exp gained from using the BACKSTAB verb.
I think there is still a problem however, and it possibly manifests a lot more at lower ranks when one rank (or 10 or 20) means a lot more (compared to 1000 vs 1100), compounded by low confidence (since the system requires about 40-50 to hold the top confidence level for more than a few seconds) and again compounded by not having powerful khris (which take medium-high levels of discipline to cap):
With 3.0 a BACKSTAB is a lot harder to pull off successfully, especially at level, if you get a failed backstab (combat messaging reads as you THRUST, not you BACKSTAB) you'll be learning at the old "attack <body part> from hiding" exp rate and not the updated BACKSTAB rate.
It works out still very well if your near 50/50 or better with your success rate, but if its like 1 in 10, your training isn't going to feel much faster at all.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/11/2013 08:43 PM CST
I sincerely didn't have a problem training BS up on rats with ambush, till I got it high enough to BS louts.
While a typical player is going to have lower stealth (which cripples BS more than low BS, since you have to stay hidden to BS), you also have to remember that there are some significant learning bonuses in place for low-level learning, and that as long as you can get some bits in it, you'll do OK even if you don't lock.
Pants.
While a typical player is going to have lower stealth (which cripples BS more than low BS, since you have to stay hidden to BS), you also have to remember that there are some significant learning bonuses in place for low-level learning, and that as long as you can get some bits in it, you'll do OK even if you don't lock.
Pants.
DINERGRRL
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/12/2013 06:37 AM CST
>As far as I can tell, that is still correct, Soch and Kod didn't even seem aware that most thieves have been using attack <body part> from hiding to train backstab, but did increase the exp gained from using the BACKSTAB verb.
That's disturbing...
PEICHAR
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/12/2013 12:13 PM CST
>I sincerely didn't have a problem training BS up on rats with ambush, till I got it high enough to BS louts.
This is a 3.0 issue. The learning rates didn't get screwed up until 3.0 hit. Did you start a new thief after 3.0, training "attack <body part>" in rats? I'm curious how the learning rates are for new thieves. If indeed learning rates are a problem for new thieves, maybe we can nudge Kod and Soch to actually bump those learning rates even if they do think it's a "hack."
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
This is a 3.0 issue. The learning rates didn't get screwed up until 3.0 hit. Did you start a new thief after 3.0, training "attack <body part>" in rats? I'm curious how the learning rates are for new thieves. If indeed learning rates are a problem for new thieves, maybe we can nudge Kod and Soch to actually bump those learning rates even if they do think it's a "hack."
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/12/2013 12:35 PM CST
>This is a 3.0 issue. The learning rates didn't get screwed up until 3.0 hit. Did you start a new thief after 3.0, training "attack <body part>" in rats?
Yes. Last week. In plat no less, which doesn't have full sync with prime, so tends to be missing some 'updates'.
Pants.
Yes. Last week. In plat no less, which doesn't have full sync with prime, so tends to be missing some 'updates'.
Pants.
RMOORE
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/12/2013 03:15 PM CST
The learning rate is fine for actual backstabbing. The ambush command teaches minimally. That time is better working your normal combat skills.
Once I passed reavers, I resigned myself to the tier system with a biped for boxes and backstabbing, a quadraped for defenses and skinning, and something dangerous to work bow and stealth.
GUICHARDA
Re: New Thief Backstabbing Difficulty
02/18/2013 01:01 PM CST
I returned to the realms post 3.0 and started a new thief. Initially I had some problems with backstabbing probably due to the fact that I was ambushing specific parts on rats. Once I started using the backstab verb successfully in louts, I haven't had any problems. So I would suggest getting some to teach it or grinding through it until you can hit louts. After that it will be smooth sailing through the lower ranks. Haven't had any other problems with it through circle 20.
