I've been having a great time with it, but it does say 'you backstab at' instead of lunge, thrust, etc.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

It's working as intended if intended was slow and not anymore powerful than any other attack. I tested it out in head-splitters last night, 800 backstabbing so they don't teach me, but my test was more so for purposes of seeing how long it took to kill. It was quicker for me to kill using a katar or scimitar with 100 less ranks in small edge than it was to stalk into hiding and backstab them. With 2-3 second backstab roundtime using a telek, 3 second stalk into roundtime that's 5-6 seconds each strike and it was taking 3-6 strikes to kill, usually in the range of 4-5 seconds so that's 20-25 seconds to kill each head-splitter minimum and again they don't even teach me. The average kill using a katar or scimitar was in the 11-13 second range. So it's taking roughly twice as long per kill using our "supposed" special ability. I used to run through these in the 3-6 second range depending if it took 1 or 2 hits to kill. I understand that they wanted to slow combat down, but they slowed combat down and tanked the power of backstabbing altogether.

My friend was commenting on how he's only gotten a few boxes all night so I also went into splitters to check the box rate. What I noticed was the box rate is quite a bit less frequent than it previously was especially for how long it's taking per kill. I think there needs to be an uptweak in both the box rate and the power of backstabbing.

Overall combat is alright, but I'm really disappointed with backstabbing. Hopefully there will be some changes, there really needs to be.


- Reihn

I'm reserving judgement on the usefulness of backstab until I get a chance to use it in a pvp environment. It might be that I can get off 5 backstabs before a decent area spell is off. (Provided they decide to sit still for it)

I worry about hiding again after an initial hit but I guess we'll see. Backstab, on the whole, was useful when you completely outclassed someone. It was worthless when you wanted to fight at or above level (pvp). That niche was filled by bows.

That said, I was really looking forward to a BS field exp boost (because we don't one hit anymore) and I'm still training with 'feint left eye' or staying at 2/34. Feint left eye is training faster but despite my advocacy for training BS against 'harder, more precise' targets, everything else got some love, I'd love if this did too.

You guys have enough on your plate with magic users ready to storm the gates but if it comes up, maybe tweak the gain on it? Everything else is as it was for thieves.

Backstab for shock and awe

poach to actually win

---

Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."

>>It might be that I can get off 5 backstabs before a decent area spell is off. (Provided they decide to sit still for it)

I highly doubt it. The goal of 3.0 was to make PvP more dynamic. Backstab should still be a strong attack, but it is mandatory that a similarly-skilled enemy has a chance to retaliate. This also holds true for when a mage gets the jump on you...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

You know, a potentially very powerful outlet for backstab could be armor ignore, or some other forms of damage reduction ignore power. Would make sense for the skill, and give thieves a strong power vs. heavily armored targets, as a possible tradeoff for the complete lack of AoE abilities.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>Your lack of vitality regen is likely from a bug. We saw it occasionally in Testing and fixed instances of it we could find. Please ASSIST when it happens and we'll take a look.

off topic but I think it happens when you take a vitality hit right as you are also getting a pulse, I've had my vit jump from 97 to 100 then immediately back to 98/99 from a hit or lodged weapon (arrow) wiggle and then sit there for a really really long time, also I think once you get hit by this bug, you might need to relog to restart your vitality pulses

started seeing this in just the last couple days of test and maybe once so far in prime

In running my BS script earlier, I noticed I was oscilating between 'you thrust' and 'you backstab' now. Any changes made?

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

I did some more investigating, and it turns out that GMs can't duplicate the bug :( Hence why it has been hard to fix. I may need to call on some of you to help duplicate it for me so I can finally get it licked. Thanks for being patient!

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Adding examples to the messaging woes. Also we are hitting legs now?

You slip out of concealment and backstab a zombie mauler!
< Moving with powerful grace, you thrust a tyrium stiletto with a scorpion diamond set into the antique silver hilt at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler fails to dodge, avoiding only some of the blow.
The stiletto lands a powerful (11/23) strike that impales the mauler's spinal cord to spill smelly vitreous fluid upon the ground.
[You're nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]

R> hide

You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

HR> backstab

You slip out of concealment and thrust at a zombie mauler!
< Driving in like an unbeatable force, you Backstab at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler fails to evade, avoiding only some of the blow.
The stiletto lands a vicious (14/23) strike that rips the mauler's right leg from the hip.
The zombie mauler falls over on what remains of its face.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]


You slip out of concealment and backstab a zombie mauler!
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you thrust a tyrium stiletto with a scorpion diamond set into the antique silver hilt at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler attempts to evade, stepping partly into the blow.
The stiletto lands an extremely heavy (10/23) hit that rips away half of the mauler's neck to expose a rotting black tongue.
[You're bruised, adeptly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]


You slip out of concealment and thrust at a zombie mauler!
< Moving as one fluid extension of power, you Backstab at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler attempts to dodge, avoiding only some of the blow.
The stiletto lands a powerful (11/23) strike that drives the tyrium stiletto under the mauler's sternum to explode its heart.
A zombie mauler falls belly-up and grunts its last grunt.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

If the messaging says thrust at X then the you Backstab message shows up, if the message is and backstab X the you thrust messaging shows up.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BearTrap
Traps, coming soon to DR.

As near as I can tell, I've had both show up on what I would count as 'successful' hits.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BearTrap
Traps, coming soon to DR.

I was testing BS learning in assassins and it was pretty pathetic to say the least but i've no idea what happened but i just got this like 5 times in a row trying to stab out of nowhere. She had to leave combat for a few seconds and head back into a different room before it went back to normal messaging again.
Can you please look at BS learning rates, even ambushing isnt that good at teaching when weapons lock at 34/34 and BS is stuck at 5/34 its not good

You turn to face a Dragon Priest Assassin.
You slip out of concealment and thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin!
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
<You thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin dodges, just out of harm's way.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

You slip out of concealment and thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin!
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
<Moving with powerful grace, you thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin attempts to dodge, avoiding most of the blow.
The knife lands a heavy strike (7/22) that rips skin and exposes bloody cartilage under the left kneecap.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

You slip out of concealment and thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin!
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
<Moving with powerful grace, you thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin attempts to dodge, avoiding most of the blow.
The knife lands a heavy strike (7/22) to the assassin's right arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

You slip out of concealment and thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin!
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
T9 is thrust.
<Driving in like an unbeatable force, you thrust at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin fails to dodge.
The knife lands a hard hit (5/22) to the assassin's right arm.
[You're bruise, winded, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]



If advice was any good, they wouldn't give it out for free.

Not sure if this will be any help in the pursuit of what's weird with Backstab experience, but here is what's happening with me, so you have another example.

This was yesterday, on ground level Manor Orc raiders and reivers, for approximately 40 minutes (2 full khri durations of Focus, Darken, Prowess and Strike), only Backstabbing, taking anything from 1 to 4 backstabs to kill each one:
Backstab: 365 79% attentive (10/34) +0.17
Melee Mastery: 301 91% mind lock (34/34) +0.25
Small Edged: 328 49% nearly locked (33/34) +0.24
Stealth: 416 45% enthralled (32/34) +0.26

This was this afternoon, after I read your post about increasing the exp gain for Backstab by a large amount. Same amount of time, same khri, but on the second level of the Manor, with the slightly tougher Raiders. Once again primarily Backstabbing, with the very occasional jab in between stalk 'n stabs to increase balance.
Backstab: 366 19% deliberative (11/34) +0.24
Melee Mastery: 305 87% nearly locked (33/34) +0.43
Small Edged: 329 20% mind lock (34/34) +0.16
Stealth: 417 11% mind lock (34/34) +0.18

So yeah, I'm not seeing any increase either. They are still working my weapons and stealth really well, but not Backstab. I have only recently come back after several year's hiatus, so I wasn't sure if I needed to be bringing up my weapon skills and finding something harder to hunt, or if it was just wonky.
(Note:Pre-3.0 I may not have been actually mind locking Backstab in that time, but it would have been pretty close, especially if the spawns were constant.)

~T.S.

Thanks for looking into this Kodius. I noticed a small increase, but nothing major in terms of xp gain today.

Everyone appreciates everything you've done and are doing! Take all the time you want by all means!

Gah, so sorry to hear that Kodius. Get rested, fed, and most importantly, fully recovered.

~Teille.

This should be nearly fixed. Spoke with the exp GM and it was something silly going on...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Who turned backstabbing back off? For a few minutes there backstabbing exp was turned on a ridiculous amount, 4 kills over a total of 17 hits straight backstabbing to move 808 backstabbing from clear to mind locked against head-splitters and now I can barely maintain the learning level by attacking their right eye. There's got to be a middle ground there somewhere. Thanks

As at 7:45pm EST, it's still working like a dream for me. Really nice experience gain, in fact. For the first time ever, I have to keep killing middle level Orc Raiders after my Backstab (368) gets locked, to get Stealth (420) to the same state. Still managing to mind lock SE/MM/BS and Stealth in one khri rotation though. I am loving it.

Might be just because I'm working with a lot lower ranks than most of you guys, or did the Backstab hour of power start up again?

~T.S.

You need to hunt something challenging for your Backstab skill. The new Critter Appraise will tell you how well something will teach for your held weapon, so that might be a guide. The entire exp model for it was rewritten to act like a weapon, with a temporary small bonus applied to compensate folks for the lost time.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Kodius, I have a problem with that. If it was rewritten to act like a weapon, why is my barbarian with 650 small edge getting consistently harder hits, and killing a lot faster, than I am with 808 backstabbing ranks when hunting the same thing? The numbers don't add up. It's rare if I get above a powerful hit on a head-splitter with those ranks while the barbarian is constantly getting hits harder than that. All this back and forth about backstab experience when as a whole it's just not hitting as it should, PERIOD. I've offered my time to try to figure it out and no one's taken me up on it. So either your too busy with everything else 3.0, which includes just about everything not thief related, or you just don't care. Thieves get left out and then nerfed. Love it. Thanks a bunch.


- Reihn

>>Kodius, I have a problem with that. If it was rewritten to act like a weapon, why is my barbarian with 650 small edge getting consistently harder hits, and killing a lot faster, than I am with 808 backstabbing ranks when hunting the same thing? The numbers don't add up. It's rare if I get above a powerful hit on a head-splitter with those ranks while the barbarian is constantly getting hits harder than that. All this back and forth about backstab experience when as a whole it's just not hitting as it should, PERIOD. I've offered my time to try to figure it out and no one's taken me up on it. So either your too busy with everything else 3.0, which includes just about everything not thief related, or you just don't care. Thieves get left out and then nerfed. Love it. Thanks a bunch.

So, I'm clearly not Kodius, and I can't speak for him - but I do speak as someone who does a lot of free lance work all over the game and over many guilds. Posts like this one? They don't result in guild improvements. They result in me thinking "You know what? I'll work on one of the other 50 projects I've got on my plate and deal with backstab later". They result in "I know I've literally done 100s of script edits this week, logged an entire 40 hour work week working on DR or more outside of my normal job... I'm going to go watch some TV or do anything that's not DR development instead of work on backstab."

Please remember that you are dealing with people here, and while in an ideal world we'd have enough staff to do everything we want - we just don't. Don't mistake this for a threat, I'm stating a simple fact: Man-hours are by far the most precious commodity we have on the development team and there's always some other high priority project or other that could use our time when one project starts to become too bothersome for whatever reason.

Keep that in mind.

As for Kodius, I've seen the staggering amount of work he does across the entire game, the absurd hours he puts in, and I've seen, in specific, how much time he's been spending with Backstab getting it right lately. You need to cut him some slack and think about wording your posts in a constructive way or stop hitting the post button.

Is everything in 3.0 perfect? Of course not. Is it going to be in the near future? Not really, but we're working on it. Overall, a few stray examples like the above aside, the response of the community since we've launched this behemoth project has been spectacular and I'd like to thank all those people for it. It really does make it all worth it.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose