I got an alteration the other night and was hoping to use the word War-torn and was told that it was not something that could be used. I asked if Battle-worn would be acceptable and was told no as well. But I have seen battle-worn on several pieces and was curious if it something that requires an item sacrifice or what not in order to get?
FATBOY30269
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Alteration Question
11/06/2016 08:56 PM CST
>>I got an alteration the other night and was hoping to use the word War-torn and was told that it was not something that could be used. I asked if Battle-worn would be acceptable and was told no as well. But I have seen battle-worn on several pieces and was curious if it something that requires an item sacrifice or what not in order to get?
There's a rule saying that you can't typically explain where an item was damaged, mainly because it implies someone seeing it would understand the origin of the damage itself. In other words, you can have battered armor, but not war-battered armor or horse-run-over-battered armor. You can have a shredded tunic, but not cougar-shredded tunic. Etc.
"Things that discuss the source/cause of damage to an item, etc., are often not permitted in a tap or look. The damage itself is usually acceptable."
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Alteration#Items
That said, even if something often within the alteration rules themselves, some alterers might not do certain types of alterations for IC reasons. If you're going to a high end/fancy alterer, they might not want to make something beat up. Similarly, if you go to an alterer who specializes in combat-themed looks, a formal suit might get turned down despite being OOCly allowed.
Similarly, there might be times where something isn't typically allowed (like war-torn) but a specific alterer might allow it. Or a specific alterer might allow some "profession" verbs that are normally not allowed in alterations (assassin, hitman, sniper, etc).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
There's a rule saying that you can't typically explain where an item was damaged, mainly because it implies someone seeing it would understand the origin of the damage itself. In other words, you can have battered armor, but not war-battered armor or horse-run-over-battered armor. You can have a shredded tunic, but not cougar-shredded tunic. Etc.
"Things that discuss the source/cause of damage to an item, etc., are often not permitted in a tap or look. The damage itself is usually acceptable."
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Alteration#Items
That said, even if something often within the alteration rules themselves, some alterers might not do certain types of alterations for IC reasons. If you're going to a high end/fancy alterer, they might not want to make something beat up. Similarly, if you go to an alterer who specializes in combat-themed looks, a formal suit might get turned down despite being OOCly allowed.
Similarly, there might be times where something isn't typically allowed (like war-torn) but a specific alterer might allow it. Or a specific alterer might allow some "profession" verbs that are normally not allowed in alterations (assassin, hitman, sniper, etc).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IAMTHEWALRUS
Re: Alteration Question
11/06/2016 10:12 PM CST
>>But I have seen battle-worn on several pieces and was curious if it something that requires an item sacrifice or what not in order to get?
While everything Teveshsatz mentioned is is accurate, there is also a broad discrepancy between our present day GM's and the GM's of old.
Pardon me for waxing nostalgic a moment, however, once upon a time 'demonic' and 'angelic' themes were considered 'OK' by the GM's. Mind you this was Ice Fest, (circa 96ish if memory serves) 20 years and several rounds of new GM's later the game has changed considerably. In this day and age you can't elude to anything being remotely demonic, and anything 'heavenly' must pertain to a Moon Mage.
I tried my best to fight this precedent to no avail years ago with a custom title that wasn't English, despite the myriad of titles in the game that aren't English. As was said by Persida year ago: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Estate%20Holders%20of%20Elanthia/Benefits!/view?beginning_post_id=1&ending_post_id=1482&page=49#
The most important thing to extrapolate from that is: I can't speak that much to past design choices, but I can say that just like with other alteration rules, room description writing rules, and ways we do our coding, standards have changed over time, so some stuff that was put in years and years ago would never fly now if it weren't already in game.
- Anuind Silverspruce
Any drunken idiot can fall off a bar stool, a real man rides it to the ground.
While everything Teveshsatz mentioned is is accurate, there is also a broad discrepancy between our present day GM's and the GM's of old.
Pardon me for waxing nostalgic a moment, however, once upon a time 'demonic' and 'angelic' themes were considered 'OK' by the GM's. Mind you this was Ice Fest, (circa 96ish if memory serves) 20 years and several rounds of new GM's later the game has changed considerably. In this day and age you can't elude to anything being remotely demonic, and anything 'heavenly' must pertain to a Moon Mage.
I tried my best to fight this precedent to no avail years ago with a custom title that wasn't English, despite the myriad of titles in the game that aren't English. As was said by Persida year ago: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Estate%20Holders%20of%20Elanthia/Benefits!/view?beginning_post_id=1&ending_post_id=1482&page=49#
The most important thing to extrapolate from that is: I can't speak that much to past design choices, but I can say that just like with other alteration rules, room description writing rules, and ways we do our coding, standards have changed over time, so some stuff that was put in years and years ago would never fly now if it weren't already in game.
- Anuind Silverspruce
Any drunken idiot can fall off a bar stool, a real man rides it to the ground.
BADGOPHER
Re: Alteration Question
11/06/2016 10:34 PM CST
>Pardon me for waxing nostalgic a moment, however, once upon a time 'demonic' and 'angelic' themes were considered 'OK' by the GM's.
If I remember correctly, that was a block design choice that was handed down from Solomon as official policy, not a changing of the guard type slow policy change. And no, I'm not going to try to find it on the forums, I'm sorry.
Sort of how DR decided that 'grey' was the proper way to spell 'gray' and was supposed to remove it for standardization. Which has since been abandoned, if the wiki is accurate. Heh.
If I remember correctly, that was a block design choice that was handed down from Solomon as official policy, not a changing of the guard type slow policy change. And no, I'm not going to try to find it on the forums, I'm sorry.
Sort of how DR decided that 'grey' was the proper way to spell 'gray' and was supposed to remove it for standardization. Which has since been abandoned, if the wiki is accurate. Heh.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Alteration Question
11/06/2016 11:43 PM CST
>>Pardon me for waxing nostalgic a moment, however, once upon a time 'demonic' and 'angelic' themes were considered 'OK' by the GM's.
Angels don't exist in DR, so that's why they flat out don't get added to things anymore. The fact that they were added before IC "standards" were set isn't something you could use to get your new thing accepted. For all intents and purposes, it's like asking why baseball can't be altered into things even though some really old area built in 1996 mentioned Humans swinging a stick at a ball ina field.
Demons exist in DR, but more in esoteric terms so your mileage may vary, especially when you just want to say "demon".
For example, I have two items which clearly depict demonic entities. They don't say "demon" but they're clearly demonic.
a thin bladed skinning knife with an elaborate glaes-wrapped hilt
Deeply etched into the finely honed blade is an elaborate design blackened with acid, offsetting the utilitarian nature of the blade. A lone woman stands defiantly before a macabre multi-limbed beast, which has three slitted eyes shaped from cambrinth spheres and an open mouth revealing rows of razor-sharp teeth. Fine leather wrist straps wrap around the handguard and pommel to leave the hilt free, its surface covered with glaes that spiderwebs in random directions to cover the polished black handle.
an orichalcum bar necklace inlaid with an ornamental cambrinth and animite relief
The highly polished animite securely set within the thin sheet of orichalcum depicts a Gnomish woman staring upward in an open field, while the darkened cambrinth displays a series of lidless eyes staring at her from above and multi-limbed chthonic beasts clambering toward her from below.
>>I tried my best to fight this precedent to no avail years ago with a custom title that wasn't English, despite the myriad of titles in the game that aren't English.
I don't know what title you were aiming for, but arguing that you want the title X because title Y has non-English origins would always be a tough claim to make.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Angels don't exist in DR, so that's why they flat out don't get added to things anymore. The fact that they were added before IC "standards" were set isn't something you could use to get your new thing accepted. For all intents and purposes, it's like asking why baseball can't be altered into things even though some really old area built in 1996 mentioned Humans swinging a stick at a ball ina field.
Demons exist in DR, but more in esoteric terms so your mileage may vary, especially when you just want to say "demon".
For example, I have two items which clearly depict demonic entities. They don't say "demon" but they're clearly demonic.
a thin bladed skinning knife with an elaborate glaes-wrapped hilt
Deeply etched into the finely honed blade is an elaborate design blackened with acid, offsetting the utilitarian nature of the blade. A lone woman stands defiantly before a macabre multi-limbed beast, which has three slitted eyes shaped from cambrinth spheres and an open mouth revealing rows of razor-sharp teeth. Fine leather wrist straps wrap around the handguard and pommel to leave the hilt free, its surface covered with glaes that spiderwebs in random directions to cover the polished black handle.
an orichalcum bar necklace inlaid with an ornamental cambrinth and animite relief
The highly polished animite securely set within the thin sheet of orichalcum depicts a Gnomish woman staring upward in an open field, while the darkened cambrinth displays a series of lidless eyes staring at her from above and multi-limbed chthonic beasts clambering toward her from below.
>>I tried my best to fight this precedent to no avail years ago with a custom title that wasn't English, despite the myriad of titles in the game that aren't English.
I don't know what title you were aiming for, but arguing that you want the title X because title Y has non-English origins would always be a tough claim to make.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FATBOY30269
Re: Alteration Question
11/07/2016 05:39 PM CST
I appreciate everyone's input on this as it was something that seemed odd to me, would have loved to have the battle-worn rather than battered, but the alterer was working quickly to see as many people as possible so it happens. I did however find this the other day which lead me to wonder why it was originally denied.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Weapon:Battle-worn_skirmisher%27s_bow_with_an_etched_iron_grip
Once again, thanks for all the info everyone.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Weapon:Battle-worn_skirmisher%27s_bow_with_an_etched_iron_grip
Once again, thanks for all the info everyone.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Alteration Question
11/07/2016 05:59 PM CST
>>I did however find this the other day which lead me to wonder why it was originally denied.
I might chalk that particular item up to being a quest end-prize, but yeah you might find exceptions to the rules at times in the long run. Some items get to go around the rules based on their origins. Like how you can't get "assassin" added to an alteration's description but there are a bunch of potential "assassin" drops on this quest: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Quest_for_Kanton%27s_Dagger#Assassin.27s_Drops
It's totally understandable to feel disappointed at times, but it never hurts to have some backup ideas just in case. I tend to go into each session with a list of things I'd want and if the first doesn't work and I can't work around why it won't work, I'd jump to the second, third, etc.
On the flip side of the coin, there might sometimes be situations where you can get an alteration that normally doesn't meet standard alteration rules. For example, you can't typically have items described as "glowing" to any particular scale, because they're normally not doing that. But I nonce had an alteration done to an item that actually did glow, script-wise, I was able to get it added. So while every rule is worth acknowledging for an alteration, it never hurts to try and see if some things work – just don't get disappointed!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I might chalk that particular item up to being a quest end-prize, but yeah you might find exceptions to the rules at times in the long run. Some items get to go around the rules based on their origins. Like how you can't get "assassin" added to an alteration's description but there are a bunch of potential "assassin" drops on this quest: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Quest_for_Kanton%27s_Dagger#Assassin.27s_Drops
It's totally understandable to feel disappointed at times, but it never hurts to have some backup ideas just in case. I tend to go into each session with a list of things I'd want and if the first doesn't work and I can't work around why it won't work, I'd jump to the second, third, etc.
On the flip side of the coin, there might sometimes be situations where you can get an alteration that normally doesn't meet standard alteration rules. For example, you can't typically have items described as "glowing" to any particular scale, because they're normally not doing that. But I nonce had an alteration done to an item that actually did glow, script-wise, I was able to get it added. So while every rule is worth acknowledging for an alteration, it never hurts to try and see if some things work – just don't get disappointed!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Alteration Question
11/08/2016 12:46 AM CST
To piggy back off of Tech, you could technically get assassin whatever as long as you can put up the assassin title, unless there's a specific rule about that specific word.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Alteration Question
11/08/2016 12:58 AM CST
>>To piggy back off of Tech, you could technically get assassin whatever as long as you can put up the assassin title, unless there's a specific rule about that specific word.
This is true in many cases for some titled items, but some terms (like assassin) have stricter rules.
Of course, there could be occasional exceptions, like a Thief-only alterer or something else along those lines.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This is true in many cases for some titled items, but some terms (like assassin) have stricter rules.
Of course, there could be occasional exceptions, like a Thief-only alterer or something else along those lines.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
MKIBBE1
Re: Alteration Question
11/08/2016 08:43 AM CST
I wrote up an alteration that included "pattern welded" in it. The GM that was doing it said they didn't think that was allowed. I showed them links to items with that phrase in it and they accepted it (also it was for a forged pattern welded tekkan though which has it in the original item). Never hurts to try that way in a session though.
No idea if this actually helps you.
NIKPACK
Re: Alteration Question
11/09/2016 09:01 AM CST
<<I wrote up an alteration that included "pattern welded" in it. The GM that was doing it said they didn't think that was allowed. I showed them links to items with that phrase in it and they accepted it (also it was for a forged pattern welded tekkan though which has it in the original item). Never hurts to try that way in a session though.
That's a good point to make. GM's are human too. They read and follow the same rules given to players. So sometimes you can make a case for XXX happening. Other times, you just have to accept that it won't.
Nikpack
That's a good point to make. GM's are human too. They read and follow the same rules given to players. So sometimes you can make a case for XXX happening. Other times, you just have to accept that it won't.
Nikpack
