From the website (https://www.play.net/dr/info/spells/magic.asp#realms):
>Life mana is the energy produced from the continuing struggle between order and chaos. Everything around you is in a state on the spectrum between total chaos, and total order. As each of these opposing forces act on an object, life mana is produced. In an area where these two forces are equal, there is relatively little mana. Conversely, in an area where one of these two forces prevails over the other, there is an abundance of life mana.
If you ask Paglar for the history of balance, he tells you this:
>Paglar nods at you and thinks for a moment, his deep brow furrowed. "There are many lessons you may learn about Rangers in books and from other guildleaders. But the most important lessons you can learn about Rangers are learned by walking with Nature and understanding the beauty of its Balance. Rangers are not like those of other guilds. It is not an easy path, but one that can bring you to more understanding and peace than any other."
>Extending one thick hand containing an acorn in his palm, Paglar says, "On one hand, Rangers are protectors of the wild places of Elanthia and keepers of all the life within them." Paglar extends his other hand, slowly uncurling his fingers to reveal a small stone in his palm. He says, "On the other hand, Rangers know that though their place is not in the towns and cities of these lands, these places are needed, just like nighttime is needed for each day. This is part of the Balance, which is what we ultimately seek."
>Paglar smiles and lowers his gravely voice, "You must seek Balance in yourself before you can preserve it in the world. Explore your freedom to lay your paths where your heart desires, but take seriously the discipline needed to return always to your guild. Find adventures of the mind as well as the body. Train hard, but do not neglect your rest. Use the shadows as well as the sunlight. Do these things well, and you will grow as a Ranger and go far in the guild."
>Paglar nods slowly and says in his deep voice, "Yes, Nature must be in Balance. This is an old, old truth. There is nothing, really, that is all good or all bad. In fact, there is Balance when there are equal parts of both."
>Paglar produces a peregan twig from his vest pocket and balances it on the back of his thick index finger. He says, "You see, most of the time, Nature balances itself. Sometimes, something happens to unbalance Nature and it needs our help." He punctuates his last statement with a quick wink and a slow smile.
If, as our guildleaders tell us, we as a guild are striving for Balance in nature, wouldn't that necessitate us seeking to bring things to a state where there is little to no life mana and therefore be unable to cast our spells?
Hmmm...
~Thilan
TELGER
NKRISS
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 12:25 PM CST
>>If, as our guildleaders tell us, we as a guild are striving for Balance in nature, wouldn't that necessitate us seeking to bring things to a state where there is little to no life mana and therefore be unable to cast our spells?
Yes.
I don't know that it should be that way. I always thought, personally, that since life mana is "the energy produced from the continuing struggle between order and chaos" that when things were balanced, when there was an equal amount of both, that there would be much more "struggle" and therefore more life mana.
That's just now how it is, however. At least, not yet. Hopefully some of that theory is revised.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
Yes.
I don't know that it should be that way. I always thought, personally, that since life mana is "the energy produced from the continuing struggle between order and chaos" that when things were balanced, when there was an equal amount of both, that there would be much more "struggle" and therefore more life mana.
That's just now how it is, however. At least, not yet. Hopefully some of that theory is revised.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
JLYNN1
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 12:36 PM CST
There is no balance only the struggle to achieve the balance. If we achieve that balance our magic will be unnecessary as the universe will be perfect.
Calissa
Calissa
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 01:13 PM CST
>>There is no balance only the struggle to achieve the balance. If we achieve that balance our magic will be unnecessary as the universe will be perfect.
Sounds like Michael Moorcock, if anyone's ever read him.
Elric: "There must be balance, Goat Man."
von Bek: "There must always be balance, police officer."
Hawkmoon: "There must always be balance, Count Brass."
His characters are all so different.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
Sounds like Michael Moorcock, if anyone's ever read him.
Elric: "There must be balance, Goat Man."
von Bek: "There must always be balance, police officer."
Hawkmoon: "There must always be balance, Count Brass."
His characters are all so different.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
SORTIK
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 01:37 PM CST
>>There is no balance only the struggle to achieve the balance. If we achieve that balance our magic will be unnecessary as the universe will be perfect.
Exactly. The theory behind life energy is perfect the way it is.
Think of it like a ball hanging on a string. When it is perfectly centered, it sits there without any force (well, in physics terms there is force pulling it down which keeps it centered, but you know what I mean by force). If you raise it to either side, it wants to get back to centered, thus it pulls. That's the energy that can be felt, the pull back to center.
Thus in a perfectly serene place with butterflies flying around and a waterfall slowing washing over the rocks, there is so much order that there is plenty of life energy. In a place where everything has burned down and is dead, there would be a lot of life energy (a strange idea, yes, but makes sense if you think of the life energy as being always present regardless of whether something is alive or not, and becomes active when it's trying to balance). I'm not sure of an example of balance, really.
Not sure how else to explain that concept, but hopefully it came out clear enough.
- Xelten
Exactly. The theory behind life energy is perfect the way it is.
Think of it like a ball hanging on a string. When it is perfectly centered, it sits there without any force (well, in physics terms there is force pulling it down which keeps it centered, but you know what I mean by force). If you raise it to either side, it wants to get back to centered, thus it pulls. That's the energy that can be felt, the pull back to center.
Thus in a perfectly serene place with butterflies flying around and a waterfall slowing washing over the rocks, there is so much order that there is plenty of life energy. In a place where everything has burned down and is dead, there would be a lot of life energy (a strange idea, yes, but makes sense if you think of the life energy as being always present regardless of whether something is alive or not, and becomes active when it's trying to balance). I'm not sure of an example of balance, really.
Not sure how else to explain that concept, but hopefully it came out clear enough.
- Xelten
NKRISS
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 01:53 PM CST
>>Think of it like a ball hanging on a string. When it is perfectly centered, it sits there without any force (well, in physics terms there is force pulling it down which keeps it centered, but you know what I mean by force).
See that's where I think the life energy should come from. The two forces are in perfect balance, yes, but they're also exerting force to keep that balance.
I see it like two people pushing against each other as hard as they can. Neither person is moving, and yet there is a lot of force being exerted to keep that balance.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
See that's where I think the life energy should come from. The two forces are in perfect balance, yes, but they're also exerting force to keep that balance.
I see it like two people pushing against each other as hard as they can. Neither person is moving, and yet there is a lot of force being exerted to keep that balance.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
JLYNN1
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 01:55 PM CST
Well think about it this way; the butterflies gotta eat and they eat flora. The flora respond by growing new leaves and plants with seeds. More organisms that struggle to live are thus brought in to unbalance the system. In a balanced system there would be no new life because in order for that life to grow something has to feed it and thus perish. So until all are undying, non-eating organisms then there will be struggles and thus abundant life energy.
Calissa's player
Calissa's player
JLYNN1
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 01:58 PM CST
<<The two forces are in perfect balance, yes, but they're also exerting force to keep that balance.>>
The illusion of an imposed balance. If a person slides down a hill and stops before hitting the bottom has he reached a balance? No, the forces of gravity and friction are just exerting equal forces on the person. The strain is there even if a third party can't see it.
Calissa's player
The illusion of an imposed balance. If a person slides down a hill and stops before hitting the bottom has he reached a balance? No, the forces of gravity and friction are just exerting equal forces on the person. The strain is there even if a third party can't see it.
Calissa's player
DAE83
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 03:31 PM CST
I'm confused.
but... from what Palgar says, it seems a ranger duty ultimately is to keep nature from becoming to destructive force, and to also keep cities in check from destroying nature all together in their taking from nature.
For the magic part, I like the theory but wouldn't that mean ranger's mana would shift like Moon mages due to the amount of order or chaos in the area?
The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>
but... from what Palgar says, it seems a ranger duty ultimately is to keep nature from becoming to destructive force, and to also keep cities in check from destroying nature all together in their taking from nature.
For the magic part, I like the theory but wouldn't that mean ranger's mana would shift like Moon mages due to the amount of order or chaos in the area?
The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>
SORTIK
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 03:56 PM CST
>>For the magic part, I like the theory but wouldn't that mean ranger's mana would shift like Moon mages due to the amount of order or chaos in the area?
In theory, but then, all types of mana would probably shift slightly if the system were THAT detailed. As it is, I think they just assume that any given area remains in its state of order/balance/chaos.
>>but... from what Palgar says, it seems a ranger duty ultimately is to keep nature from becoming to destructive force, and to also keep cities in check from destroying nature all together in their taking from nature
Basically.
And that leaves it open for Rangers who reject the teachings of the Guild, publically or otherwise, to cause chaos and disrupt nature for the purpose of gaining power. And Rangers who have an alternative view of "the balance" that results in seeking something other than true balance, be it ultimate order or utter chaos for another reason. And of course there are always those Rangers who are all about keeping The Balance.
Ranger RP can be fun (though it rarely has GM involvement). If only we had magic instead of armor as a secondary skillset....
Evil Rangers who delve into Necromancy would be an interesting way of pulling a dark side out of a relatively neutral Guild. On the other end, there are probably some very Paladin-like Rangers as well.
- Xelten
In theory, but then, all types of mana would probably shift slightly if the system were THAT detailed. As it is, I think they just assume that any given area remains in its state of order/balance/chaos.
>>but... from what Palgar says, it seems a ranger duty ultimately is to keep nature from becoming to destructive force, and to also keep cities in check from destroying nature all together in their taking from nature
Basically.
And that leaves it open for Rangers who reject the teachings of the Guild, publically or otherwise, to cause chaos and disrupt nature for the purpose of gaining power. And Rangers who have an alternative view of "the balance" that results in seeking something other than true balance, be it ultimate order or utter chaos for another reason. And of course there are always those Rangers who are all about keeping The Balance.
Ranger RP can be fun (though it rarely has GM involvement). If only we had magic instead of armor as a secondary skillset....
Evil Rangers who delve into Necromancy would be an interesting way of pulling a dark side out of a relatively neutral Guild. On the other end, there are probably some very Paladin-like Rangers as well.
- Xelten
SERC
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 04:28 PM CST
"Evil Rangers who delve into Necromancy would be an interesting way of pulling a dark side out of a relatively neutral Guild. On the other end, there are probably some very Paladin-like Rangers as well."
"Dark paladin" Rangers of DOOOOOM.
Sorry. I'll leave now.
-Serc
"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer
"Dark paladin" Rangers of DOOOOOM.
Sorry. I'll leave now.
-Serc
"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer
LINKRJH
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 04:33 PM CST
How about this: start a life mana booster for how many player kills we've got. Also, make it so consent no longer applies to us.
Thx
Thx
ENDOJ5
Re: Magic Musings
12/12/2006 09:08 PM CST
>If only we had magic instead of armor as a secondary skillset....
Ewwwwwwww no thx.
-Vision et al
Also, I can shoot bees.
Ewwwwwwww no thx.
-Vision et al
Also, I can shoot bees.
NKRISS
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 02:49 AM CST
>>Ewwwwwwww no thx.
Harder to keep locked, but it would justify so many more spells for us and also I'd have like 600 PM/Harness.
I think it's worth it with how little use armor ranks have and how simple it is for armor terts to move those ranks.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
Harder to keep locked, but it would justify so many more spells for us and also I'd have like 600 PM/Harness.
I think it's worth it with how little use armor ranks have and how simple it is for armor terts to move those ranks.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 03:34 AM CST
Who cares about 200 more magic ranks?
As magic secondary Rangers still wouldn't get any target spells, maybe an AoE or two of dubious use.
And really, you wouldn't just be giving up armor but shield too. In other words, most Rangers would be in trouble if a thrown or bow-user could spot them hiding.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
As magic secondary Rangers still wouldn't get any target spells, maybe an AoE or two of dubious use.
And really, you wouldn't just be giving up armor but shield too. In other words, most Rangers would be in trouble if a thrown or bow-user could spot them hiding.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
SORTIK
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 04:25 AM CST
>>In other words, most Rangers would be in trouble if a thrown or bow-user could spot them hiding.
If anyone can spot a Ranger in hiding, the Ranger needs to train harder (no I'm not saying no one can spot Xelten).
>>Who cares about 200 more magic ranks?
Me. Plus, at magic secondary I would already have reached my 200 Targeted Magic goal. Getting closer though.
>>Harder to keep locked, but it would justify so many more spells for us
Indeed.
>>I think it's worth it with how little use armor ranks have and how simple it is for armor terts to move those ranks.
Indeed.
- Xelten
If anyone can spot a Ranger in hiding, the Ranger needs to train harder (no I'm not saying no one can spot Xelten).
>>Who cares about 200 more magic ranks?
Me. Plus, at magic secondary I would already have reached my 200 Targeted Magic goal. Getting closer though.
>>Harder to keep locked, but it would justify so many more spells for us
Indeed.
>>I think it's worth it with how little use armor ranks have and how simple it is for armor terts to move those ranks.
Indeed.
- Xelten
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 04:55 AM CST
>>If anyone can spot a Ranger in hiding, the Ranger needs to train harder (no I'm not saying no one can spot Xelten).
Sadly, there are a great variety of deliciously fun ways to get around hiding that a Ranger or a Thief with stats trained for maximum hiding would be ill-equipped to handle. Some of them require abilities, some are found on critters in Throne City. Any house built on sand (one skill, hiding or target magic or whatever) will crumble easily under the right circumstances.
I think the best way to strengthen the Ranger guild would be to keep the current skillset and augment the current abilities with a couple more spells and beseeches that are, you know, actually a powerful system.
Just because not every Ranger chooses to use the gifts they're given (the ability to prosper at melee rank for rank) doesn't mean the option should be removed. Thieves are supposed to be the super-stealth guild that crumbles when they can't hide. Rangers are supposed to be the stealth guild that is almost as dangerous hidden, and still dangerous unhidden.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
Sadly, there are a great variety of deliciously fun ways to get around hiding that a Ranger or a Thief with stats trained for maximum hiding would be ill-equipped to handle. Some of them require abilities, some are found on critters in Throne City. Any house built on sand (one skill, hiding or target magic or whatever) will crumble easily under the right circumstances.
I think the best way to strengthen the Ranger guild would be to keep the current skillset and augment the current abilities with a couple more spells and beseeches that are, you know, actually a powerful system.
Just because not every Ranger chooses to use the gifts they're given (the ability to prosper at melee rank for rank) doesn't mean the option should be removed. Thieves are supposed to be the super-stealth guild that crumbles when they can't hide. Rangers are supposed to be the stealth guild that is almost as dangerous hidden, and still dangerous unhidden.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
NKRISS
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 10:20 AM CST
>>Who cares about 200 more magic ranks?
Me? It would allow me to cap WOTP, it would reduce the time I needed to prep all my spells by probably 5 seconds, it would increase the amount of mana I could see, harness, and hold by a huge amount. It would make a monster difference.
>>As magic secondary Rangers still wouldn't get any target spells, maybe an AoE or two of dubious use.
Wouldn't want or need target spells, but we would have the justification for much stronger spells than we have now being magic secondary. Plus some very decent magic requirements to circle too. Mmmm...
>>And really, you wouldn't just be giving up armor but shield too. In other words, most Rangers would be in trouble if a thrown or bow-user could spot them hiding.
Why?
If I'm hiding it's because I have my bow out, and if I have my bow out it's loaded, and if I have a loaded bow then I'm not using shield. It would make zero difference.
>>Sadly, there are a great variety of deliciously fun ways to get around hiding that a Ranger or a Thief with stats trained for maximum hiding would be ill-equipped to handle. Some of them require abilities, some are found on critters in Throne City. Any house built on sand (one skill, hiding or target magic or whatever) will crumble easily under the right circumstances.
You would be surprised just how powerful that house of sand really is. Or how powerful it becomes when you throw in just a single other factor (evasion).
>>I think the best way to strengthen the Ranger guild would be to keep the current skillset and augment the current abilities with a couple more spells and beseeches that are, you know, actually a powerful system.
Absolutely. It's all just speculation about how things would change being magic secondary. In the realm of reality that will absolutely never happen so that's definately the best way to go about making our guild better.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
Me? It would allow me to cap WOTP, it would reduce the time I needed to prep all my spells by probably 5 seconds, it would increase the amount of mana I could see, harness, and hold by a huge amount. It would make a monster difference.
>>As magic secondary Rangers still wouldn't get any target spells, maybe an AoE or two of dubious use.
Wouldn't want or need target spells, but we would have the justification for much stronger spells than we have now being magic secondary. Plus some very decent magic requirements to circle too. Mmmm...
>>And really, you wouldn't just be giving up armor but shield too. In other words, most Rangers would be in trouble if a thrown or bow-user could spot them hiding.
Why?
If I'm hiding it's because I have my bow out, and if I have my bow out it's loaded, and if I have a loaded bow then I'm not using shield. It would make zero difference.
>>Sadly, there are a great variety of deliciously fun ways to get around hiding that a Ranger or a Thief with stats trained for maximum hiding would be ill-equipped to handle. Some of them require abilities, some are found on critters in Throne City. Any house built on sand (one skill, hiding or target magic or whatever) will crumble easily under the right circumstances.
You would be surprised just how powerful that house of sand really is. Or how powerful it becomes when you throw in just a single other factor (evasion).
>>I think the best way to strengthen the Ranger guild would be to keep the current skillset and augment the current abilities with a couple more spells and beseeches that are, you know, actually a powerful system.
Absolutely. It's all just speculation about how things would change being magic secondary. In the realm of reality that will absolutely never happen so that's definately the best way to go about making our guild better.
-Teeklin
"Gown Removed Carelessly. Head, less so." - Joss Whedon
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Magic Musings
12/13/2006 10:25 AM CST
>>You would be surprised just how powerful that house of sand really is. Or how powerful it becomes when you throw in just a single other factor (evasion).
You can train ranks in any skill to overcome any deficiency. That's the wonderful thing about DR. If you've got, say, 700 hiding and 700 evasion then it doesn't really matter anyways, nothing save flex critters are a direct threat and even then the perception check is dubious. If you've got something a little more realistic, though, say like 200 ranks of hiding, even if you have only half or 1.5 times the shield ranks it will still be the difference between life and death a dozen times over.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
You can train ranks in any skill to overcome any deficiency. That's the wonderful thing about DR. If you've got, say, 700 hiding and 700 evasion then it doesn't really matter anyways, nothing save flex critters are a direct threat and even then the perception check is dubious. If you've got something a little more realistic, though, say like 200 ranks of hiding, even if you have only half or 1.5 times the shield ranks it will still be the difference between life and death a dozen times over.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
