We have some pretty game breaking issues that need address but I don't think I've seen a red post since pre 3.0... I'm betting that the guilds that have advocates are getting SOME kind of attention to the issues affecting them... Would the GM's be more willing to look at our issues if one of use listed out the problems that we thing should be fairly quick to address? It starting to be quite frustrating to see excellent posts trying to share info with the GMs and seeing 0 feedback.

Can you please look at scouting? I'm not receiving bonus exp to scouting and the hunt command does not award scouting exp properly. I've posted in other folders, spoke to a GH, and reported it as a bug.

So on scouting - here's the deal:

I don't know squat about rangers when you get down to it. But I'm willing to make some tweaks/bug fixes when I get a moment if no one else gets to it first since, so far as I know, 3.0 shouldn't have changed scouting learning at all (Though I know the reports of hunt changing, that's likely a stealth issue which I think Kodius is going to beat himself in the head with until he understands the system).

So - give me a starting place.

What should be teach scouting?

What use to but doesn't seem to anymore?

As many details as possible please.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

I think the main problem with scouting comes down to yes, best way to learn is HUNT in hunting areas. Second problem critters have been changed so that they aren't exactly where they used to be vs hunting level. Doesn't seem like a big deal just need to move up or down in a hunting area. Yet with the new combat moving up is deadly, or moving up is just impossible to train a non combat skill that we use mainly for non combat purposes aka running trails. The exp reward from running trails is sickenly low for long trails. Pretty much i get 1/34 at 1090 ranks and i run trails that take me 3 or 4 minutes to run. Thus the only way to train is Via the Hunt command which meansthe only place i can really train it is .... on a critter with aruond 1000 combats, and even that.. its going to take me a bout 30 minutes to a hour to get to 14/34.

Compared to other guild skills, which are doing what they were primarily intended to do teaches the best. Hunt verb wasn't primary designed for rangers to learn scouting, but its really the only viable way to learn. Which is why i request the exp bet tweaked via running trails until the system can be looked at.

The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>

>>My perception as a non ranger is that Scouting really just not do anything really great

Yeah, part of me feels that Scouting would be as "not yet" as Endurance and Expertise if it was announced as a 3.0 skill.

---

The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

Also, just for some data points.

I have 370 in scouting.

I just tried out what I assume is one of the harder trails in P1 which is the Segoltha to the Gondola.

It takes me 48 seconds from the start of the trail to the end of the trail. I get to 1/34 mind state.

If I run them back to back, I'm still at 1/34. If I run the round trip twice, I'm still at 1/34. If I do it 3 times, I'm still at 1/34.

My pulses between messages while on the trail are ~6 seconds.

To cap off how crappy this is, It take me 56 seconds to run from the dock to the platform using the trails. I can do it with a script in 33 seconds. So not only am I not learning, I'm slower than travelling by script. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion.

---

Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

>>Yeah, part of me feels that Scouting would be as "not yet" as Endurance and Expertise if it was announced as a 3.0 skill.

I agree. I think Scouting (and Backstabbing) should follow a model similar to the other guild-only skills and be the driving force behind our guild-only systems like BESEECH, companions and other small, quality-of-life type abilities. Currently Scouting is just another Survival skill that only Rangers have access to. It should be much more than that.

This would require renaming both skills to make them more robust in application.

GENT

Sayomi doesn't have the ranks being posted here (only 166, I believe), but I will say I believe the slowdown of combat is exacerbating (not causing) hunt's inefficiency. If trails suddenly become the bee's knees I'd switch, but I liked the fact HUNTing in combat was a logical way of training.

Before:
Backtraining in bloodwolves used to move scouting quickly (maybe too fast) as I'd hunt, find an open wolf, hunt to it, kill it, and hunt again. I should mention the majority of my scouting experience came from hunting to a target, not the initial survey.

Now:
Still backtraining TM, but given how combat is slower I hunt to open mobs less frequently.

The amount of experience I received from hunt and hunting to a particular mob are less. If I focus on hunting, IE kill a mob, retreat from the others, arbitrarily leave and hunt back, I barely move up to 4 or 5 learning states over 20 minutes. If I focused on hunt in the past, I'd be mindlocked in the time. If I hunt when "logical" (when there isn't an open mob in the room), I'd hit learning state 16/17 before and now barely get to 2 or 3 if it moves at all. Now that combat is slower, I hunt to a creature less frequently (least I arbitrarily retreat from combat and chance losing any ranged/thrown weapons lodged in a mob).

As mentioned by others, I'd love it if SCOUT powered Ranger abilities, but I think most folks are looking a way to keep it buoyant until then (now it feels like an anchor).

Just the fact that you are taking the time to look at scouting has made me, and I'm sure many others, very happy. Thank you. Many of the suggestions listed are great and I would be pleased with any, especially the increase to trail running. Running trails just to train scouting never bothered me as long as the skill was moving at a decent pace. I could careless that I couldn't do anything else due to the fact that I was being uber Rangerly while training that one skill. I would imagine my character running through the wilderness for extended periods of time and it made me smile. It would be nice if it taught perception or outdoorsmanship as well, but those train easily with other methods.

Thanks,
player of Pathyn

So Scouting:

The Hunt verb is one method to train hunt. How the system seemed to work in 2.0, was the more things within your hunt range the more Scouting one would get.

The other method was trails, you use trails and you got experince. In 2.0 it seemed that in general you got experience for using a trail, there didn't seem to be any type of timer for like you stepped into a 'long' trail you get two times experience. I'd suggest it was some type of constant that you just got awarded, such a constant that as your ranks improved, the constant reward made it seem to diminish.

I'm trying to stay away from what I'd like to see, and just stay with things that allow you to hopefully have a feel for how the system may work as far as code. I will say I'm not a HUGE ranger.

Thank you for looking into it, if you need anymore pointers or what not, I'm sure just dropping yourself into the Crossing Rangers guild, you can find a volunteer you can have do some of the activities and watch the code or whatever may be helpful.

Again thanks for looking.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

Raesh, thank you for even reading our suggestions. It's been so long since anyone seemed to want to deal with us.

First of all, I love trails. I always have. Like Pathyn, I would imagine myself running through all the different kinds of landscapes (the descriptive messages are great, some of which change by season and/or time of day). I feel I should best learn scouting from the use of trails.

As for HUNT, a major problem I have is, I either hunt in an out of the way place so no one is there to HUNT, or I'm in a place with others around, but the HUNT rooms are too restricted. I'm thinking of Rossman's gryphons--if you climb the chimney, and climb handholds, you find yourself on a ledge sort of. When I HUNT there, I can see only 2 rooms, the area east of me and the area down. Hardly anyone or anything are in those 2 rooms. Can I go elsewhere? Sure, but higher up I go, I still run into problems with nothing being around to HUNT. I'm sure there must be other places like this, but that's the only one I can think of right now. Oh and I was thinking, could we get a little experience from HUNTING but not finding anything? If I were out in a forest looking for critters, whether I found some or not, I would be using the same skills even if I didn't find any.

As for the trails, I remember the GM who made them (Zeyurn?) posting that the trails we have now were just the first phase. From what I remember of the posts, the trail system was to get more complex (and I swear, someone promised a trail from Langen to Forfedhdar (perhaps at like godlike ranks?).

I never used trail markers much but if that was the way to train scouting, I would obviously do that. I need 5 ranks of scouting to circle. : (

<<<As someone else said, a huge bump to trails, a moderate bump to tracking, and a small bump to hunt would probably go a long long way.>>>

Sorry for chiming in here a little late, but IMO, the first thing that should be done is this skill name should be changed back to what it originally was, tracking. When I think of scouting (recon), I picture myself hiding and sneaking around behind enemies, silently, to avoid detection. This is was hiding and stalking were and what I believe stealth has become.

Secondly, we learn our exp by tracking down critters, pcs, npcs, companions, or running a trail, which is essentially a marked path. Hence, the request to change the name back to tracking.

Third, although I agree that exp learned does need to be increased, I do not agree with the above break down. I would rather see a large bump to tracking things down, by using the hunt <critter> or track <person/companion> verb. We used to be able to learn exp by tracking PCs. Turn that back on too.

Next, a moderate bump to using the hunt verb to find the critters we are tracking down to by using the initial hunt. I mean we are looking for tracks in the dirt/grass/bushes/thorns/etc.

A small bump to running trails. A GM said that when hunt was released, that it should be the primary way to learn the skill and I agree. But I would like to exp skewed so that longer trails teach more then shorter trails. I dont want to have to learn this skill by having to run trails all day long which would then prevent opportunities for roleplay/interaction with others. I mean after all, trails are essentially marked roads for use through the wild. We are following a "mapped out path" that only our eyes can see. Otherwise, we will have to start giving traders exp for runing up and the NTR and STR <LOL>


Asterid

Sorry for the multiple posts. I have been up since Saturday morning, and I am dead tired, plus having computer issues. Right after my last post, I hunted down one critter and got this:

Scouting: X74 36.82% learning (3/34)

So this was from clear and was the first hunt and then scout aware when I found the critter put 3 bits in my pool. When I scouted again a second time about 2 minutes later, I got

Scouting: X74 38.51% learning (3/34)

So I pulsed about 1.70% and still have the same bits in my pool. IIRC, this is about how I used to learn bits wise (two bits for the hunt down the critter and one for scout aware) The pulses seem odd though. My previous post seems more in line with my DR2 pulse and this pulse in this post seems like maybe a boost happened sometime today? Again, sorry for the multiple posts, I am done now and gonna try to get some sleep.

Asterid

Until we can get a more robust system in place I've doubled the exp from trails. And by that I mean "I think I did, I don't really know the system and no one has touched it in a really long time so it's possible that what I might not be universal and I'll have to take another whack at it."

Let me know how that feels.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Yeah, the exp is set to pulse in. I dunno WHY it is, but it is. I didn't tinker with that.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

I ran the two longest trails I know of -- Haven Ferry to Fens, Fens to Mistwood, Mistwood to Fens, Fens to Haven Ferry. These trails are over 3 minutes long, one way. (That's minutes).

Only hit 6/34 at the peak. 580 Scouting.

GENT

For any of the older rangers with much higher scouting, I am including the script I use so that maybe a time comparison can be made. Its starts outside the NE gate and ends back there.


#************************************
rmtrack1:
put exp survival 46
match scouttracking overall state of
match rmtrack0 Scouting:

matchwait

scouttracking:

move north
move north
move north
move northeast
move northeast
move north
move northwest
move northwest
move north
move north
move northeast
move northwest
move north
move north
move east
move down
move down

trackLook:
put e
put look
match trackscare a scarecrow
match not down.
match atgate up.
match atgate2 north.
match check east.
match check east,
match check west.
matchwait


check:
put look
match trackscare a scarecrow
match not down.
match check1 east.
match check1 east,
match check2 west.
matchwait

check1:
put east
pause
put look
match trackscare a scarecrow
match check1 east.
match check1 east,
match check2 west.
match check2 You can't go there.
matchwait

check2:
put west
pause
put look
match trackscare a scarecrow
match check1 east.
match check2 east,
match check2 west.
match check1 You can't go there.
matchwait

track1:
nextroom

trackscare:
put track scarecrow
match trackcheck You refocus on
match trackcheck You determine to track
match check what were you
matchwait

trackcheck:
put look
match trackcheck3 east.
match trackcheck2 east,
match trackcheck1 west.
matchwait

trackcheck1:
move west

trackcheck2:
move west

trackcheck3:
move go path
move west
move south
move south
move go gate
move up
move up
goto tracking

again:


Tracking:
put track
match not But you are not tracking anything
match again You are unable
match again lose
match tracked You pick up
match tracking ...wait
matchwait

tracked:

match again Unable to find
match track1 As your journey ends
goto trackexpcheck

not:
pause
move down
move down

atgate:
move go gate

atgate2:

move north
move north
move east
move go path
goto check

trackExpcheck:
NEXTROOM
put skill scouting
match trackdone bewildering
match trackdone bewildered
match trackdone mind lock
match trackdone dazed
match tracklook deaths
matchwait

trackDone:
put look
match trackdone1 A modwyn vine arbor
match trackdone2 A large section of the garden
match trackdone2 A section of the plot has
match trackdone3 Row upon row of cabbages,
matchwait


trackdone1:
move west
goto trackdone

trackdone2:
move west
goto trackdone

trackdone3:
move go path
move south
move west
move south
move go gate
move up
move up
move west
move south
move south
move southeast
move southwest
move south
move south
move southeast
move southeast
move south
move southwest
move southwest
move south
move south
move south
goto rmnegtobank

rmTRACK0:
move n
rmTRACK:
put scout trail
waitfor roundtime
pause
match rmNEGATE Obvious paths: northeast, south.
match rmTROLL Obvious paths: southwest.
match rmLAVA Obvious paths: northeast, west.
match rmGRASS Obvious paths: north, south.
put go trail
matchwait


rmNEGATE:
move s
move s
match rmnegtobank % daze
match rmnegtobank % bewild
match rmnegtobank % mind lock
match rmTRACK EXP HELP
put skill scouting
matchwait


rmTROLL:
move go gate
move n
move ne
move go gate
goto rmtrack

rmLAVA:
move ne
move w
move nw
move sw
move w
goto rmtrack

rmGRASS:
move n
move n
goto rmtrack


rmnegtobank:

move s

#**********************************

Stupid question but I assume by 6 second pulses you mean the various messages like stepping on a tomato and seeing cows, right? When my scouting clears I'll run it again and time the messages. Just curious but how high is your scouting and how long does it take you to lock running that script?



I got 12 messages between "You set off..." and "As your journey ends..." going from Crossing to Haven Ferry

I got 20 messages between "You set off..." and "As your journey ends..." going from Haven Ferry to Lang

Didn't time either one sorry.

Looks like I'm getting the messages somewhere between 9-10 seconds on the Lang/Haven ferry trail.

Total time to run the Haven to Crossing trail was 49 seconds.

I seem to be getting the messages between 3-5 seconds on the small trails from the script.

<<<I ran the script above or 15 minutes and got to 12/34. >>>

Don't really know why so many people are having an issue with learning scouting honestly. Although I don't have any scripts, I did run the trails around Crossing today for about 15 minutes just to get comparison. This is what I got:

Perception: X78 47% perusing (2/34) Scouting: X74 64% captivated (26/34)

Started from clear. I am not over 1000, but closer to a 1000 then to 0. Although I dont really pretend to understand alot about the technical side of this game, such as how stats affect it, and I dont consider my character as having high mentals, but perhaps it is a stat issue? I still say though hunting is and should be a better way to learn scouting. I can lock it by hunting in the same amount of time as I spent running trails today.

Asterid