Echoed. I'd like this to be a scholarship feat, maybe with other skills/stats mixed into the equation.

I don't care how long it takes, but it would make sense for my character to be able to speak S'kra Mur.


- Terra

/signed

That would be really cool



Drevid

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http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html

Cylons... why debugging matters.

There should be some limitation on how many languages you can learn and I think the way to do this would be to tie it into scholarship skill.

The higher your skill the more languages you can learn. Say... 150 for the first, 300 for a second, 600 for a third, etc.

There should also be some other kind of cost associated with it to make it a significant investment and not something everyone goes and does once they hit the right ranks.

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Rev. Reene

Reene: tie a scimitar to your fist.
Kystrk: that would just be unrealistic
Reene: because jump kicking someone from hiding and vaporizing their skull is super realistic
Kystrk: I was wearing footwraps

<<I think vocals should play a role in how well you can speak the language as well.>>

No.


Fimusalor rancidly says in Prydaenese, "Then I will eat her heart and deficate in her skull."

Fimusalor claws slowly clench and unclench, creating a scraping sound.

>>No.

It makes sense. I wasn't suggesting it be a primary factor in learning to speak a language. But, whatever.

>>SING the language as well.

Perception helps you in abilities that aid you in SEEing and HEARing different things. So why wouldn't the vocals skill help your vocal prowess? Obviously it can't help people who fail at grammar and punctuation, but it does make sense to help in speaking a language. Afterall, the skill is not called SINGING or HUMMING.

But, that's just my opinion. And the idea for vocals to play a part has been suggested in the past as well.


- Terra

I think vocals would be a good idea to include as a requirement.

Anyone who's ever tried IRL to learn a vastly different language from their own knows that it takes quite a bit of vocal training to make the different sounds and combinations correctly. And some people actually are unable to learn how to do it 100% correct.

As far as I'm aware, the only way to train vocals is with music verbs. Is this correct? I've never seen any use of the vocals skill that suggested it was anything BESIDES music. It came from the music lore skill.

I'm all for expanding the use of a skill, but I'm just wondering if I've completely missed something in-game (quite possible) that lends support for this?

I stated no, because it takes no true vocal training to pronounce words in my experiance with various languages. Yes some languages require pronuciation of various sounds but those sounds can be proncounced with no musical quality to them.

You aren't training your voice as you would if you were a singer, you don't need any sort of musical talent, infact i cannot sing worth a damn but i can speak spanish and french to a decent degree. While rolling R's is difficult for some, it still has nothing to do with voice training.

To counter that there are people who can sing, and have trained their voices since they were very young who cannot pronounce words or varoius sounds correctly in other languages.

Scholarship I can see.
Wisdom and Intellgence Good stats to probably include.
Charisma could even be considered in some outstandingly obtuse way in my mind. Because sometimes speaking in another language requires confidence in yourself to know what you are saying and just say it. Of course intellegence and wisdom also covers that. Also charisma is sort of a social skill stat in my mind.

Vocals In the DR sense falls into the Musical range. Maybe some mythical sonic manipluation abilities now. Common speech, or multiple language learning shouldn't be tied to that skill to be used. Scholarship if sufficent to cover learning and usage.

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Fimusalor rancidly says in Prydaenese, "Then I will eat her heart and deficate in her skull."

Fimusalor claws slowly clench and unclench, creating a scraping sound.

>>As far as I'm aware, the only way to train vocals is with music verbs.<<

This is correct. As of now, that is the only way to learn vocals and I am currently at a loss for any other ways to train the skill.

>>I'm all for expanding the use of a skill<<

As am I. Awhile back in some folder or another, I think Aveda suggested a new way to learn Perception, by listening to someone play music at the expense of their visual perception dropping. Using that as an example I would like to see some skills expanded to have more use, like the Vocals skill. Right now, the only thing it does for non-Bards is gain TDP's.

I think language learning would be a great way to expand it's use a little bit, even if it is only a minor factor.

Thank you for at least explaining your "No" DAE83, but I still respectfully disagree that it should not be used in learning languages. I see your point, I just don't necessarily agree with it.


- Terra

<<You aren't training your voice as you would if you were a singer, you don't need any sort of musical talent, infact i cannot sing worth a damn but i can speak spanish and french to a decent degree. While rolling R's is difficult for some, it still has nothing to do with voice training.

Diction classes across multiple languages were very much a required part of my degree in voice. So much so that the music department only offered to the voice and piano students (since most vocal coaches come from the ranks of pianists.) Singing is the whole package, not just opening your mouth and making noise. Vocals as part of a language system makes 100% sense.

-Evran

Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.

<<This is correct. As of now, that is the only way to learn vocals and I am currently at a loss for any other ways to train the skill.

Screams. Its of limited use in training, however, because of mojo restrictions on its use.

-Evran

Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.

I stated two langagues which i can speak with a wide command of the langauges. In my research I learned various lagnaguges to a small degree for translation and understanding audio tapes from past interviews and the ones i did. I see no point in going to in great depths about the lanaguages I know how to say basic things in.

While I do not argue that vocal mastery can make a persona sound more pleasent in a different language as well as our own language.

My argument is based on the fact vocal mastery relates to the concept of training your voice to sound a certain way. Speech is fundamentally vocal. Again that is not my argument. The only people who do not have voices are those who cannot speak at all. Then we have Sign Language. I defer to langauges not being based on a vocal skillset in DR because language is not constricted to only vocals In real life.

As far as I know, DR has no tonal languages, since well text cannot really have tones, only pronunciation variance. While you can Roleplay if they do or not, without some IG premisses for tonal languages (where tone changes the meaning) I would see vocal skill as an attempt to justify training of another lore skill.

Languages have a variance of musical quality to them, but the muscial quality is in most cases incidental and not essential to speaking the language.

If you go the Vocal Skill route. What will determine what lanaguages are harder to speak. Why would speaking Gorbesh be Harder vocally than speaking Iltihic.

Are you trying to say Vocal skill should be needed JUST to learn any language or speak any extra languages?

Why would Vocal be anywhere near as relevent than Scholarship/Intellegence/Wisdom? Unless you can place some sort of difficulty level on each languages vocal requirements.

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Fimusalor rancidly says in Prydaenese, "Then I will eat her heart and deficate in her skull."

Fimusalor claws slowly clench and unclench, creating a scraping sound.

Given how people choose to pretend they have various accents anyway, I don't see how Vocal skill could be relevant. Consider also that you do not need to be able to speak a language with an accent that native speakers would easily understand in order for you to understand what they say.

At any rate, I would say something like average of Int, Wis, and Dis must be at least 30 for one additional language, 60 for a second, 90 for third. Scholarship 250, 500, 750.

Lore primaries 30, 55, 75, 90 stat averages with 200, 400, 600, 800 scholarship. I say lore primaries, but I really mean Traders and Bards specifically. Just don't punish tertiaries.

I think part of the problem is people are being narrow minded about what vocals is currently and what it COULD be in the future.

I think we need to broaden our scopes and look at potential development because it makes sense in Dragonrealms, even if you don't particularly agree with it in your day to day.

Vocals is an under utilized skill. It's only current application is music. People have requested for years that we be able to learn other languages. Well why not use the under utilized skill that deals with your voice and speaking?

I think we need to take a step back from the die hard realism and logistics.


-Coralin

And have like spell slots youd have to earn, one for every 75 ranks of Scholarship, then exponential TDP cost.

I think the real hold up is the mechanics though, how would we handle 20% recognition? 40 % recognition? would 100% recognition mean being able to tell the difference between gor tog and s'kra mur or would it be the actual words? So on and so forth.

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If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

Language is an interesting dichotomy of not just what you say but also how you say it. So one might know the right combination of letters to say, but there could be an accent or rhythm you need to apply. Given this, I think scholarship and vocals would be the two best skills to be used in learning new languages in DR.

Scholarship would cover the ability to remember the vocabulary; do you have the right word to use when you want it? Vocal skill would cover one's ability to actually say the word; can you form your mouth in the correct orientation to say the word in the right time frame?

Think about Spanish versus Chinese. Spanish is easy to speak because it's extremely phonetic, every letter has one exact pronunciation, but can you speak it fast enough (they go really fast) to sound proficient? Whereas, the number of possible sounds in Chinese Mandarin is few but the accent you give it can change completely change it's meaning.

Nikpack
player of more than I should list

Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill

And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z

>I put in my objection to using vocal skills because I don't want to see this. X skill is under used, so because this might have some roundabout relation, lets make it used for THIS.

While I have no opinion on the current subject, this is pretty much what needs to be done for the underutilized / underappreciated skills.

They need expanded in at least relatively logical ways. The instrument and vocal skills are prime examples of things that need a use (for non-Bards, although it wouldn't hurt for Bards to have more use too). Stalking, Escaping, Lockpicking, Disarming, Climbing, Swimming, Power Perception are more good examples of skills that direly need more reasons to be utilized, even if they do their single thing fine right now.

If people don't train those skills and suddenly they become useful, it's going to suck to be them, but we can't let that hold back development that's beneficial to the game in the long run. Especially when the new benefit is hardly something game-busting.

Repeat: This does not mean I support (or do not support) Vocals for languages, just a brief comment about underutilized skills in general.

-Z

While we are talking about learning other Racial languages, can I throw in the suggestion of other, even harder to learn, languages - maybe Imperial? I, for one, would love the opportunity to speak some smattering of a dead language, and from references in other books, I get the feeling that ancient Imperial is no more dead than Latin.

At the very least, just consider this a request for more information on ancient Imperial.

- Erelieva

for my s'kra murs -

i'd love to be able to read the "ancient s'kra sigils" that are in such places as that crypt on aesry for example.


And when a bard sings that part about the "velakan mine" part of dema,as a S'kra, i'd like to be able to understand it, not get the message that "she's singing in another language".


Same goes for my dwarves, i'd like to be able to read ancient haakish stuff.


It's a number, it gets bigger. That's the whole DR experience right there

>I think the real hold up is the mechanics though, how would we handle 20% recognition? 40 % recognition? would 100% recognition mean being able to tell the difference between gor tog and s'kra mur or would it be the actual words? So on and so forth.

That's easy, treat it like thoughtcast. If you are not yet 100% fluent, messages too long will not be recognized.

"You tried to say that in Rakash, but you spoke too fast and end up mangling up your words."

"Rieum speaks in Gamgweth, but he spoke too fast and you got lost in his words."


>can I throw in the suggestion of other, even harder to learn, languages - maybe Imperial? I, for one, would love the opportunity to speak some smattering of a dead language, and from references in other books, I get the feeling that ancient Imperial is no more dead than Latin.

I would LOVE to see this, too, and this opens up lots of doors for the Events team to write up books that must be excavated and readible only by those proficient in the languages! Archaelogist title here i come!

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"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer