Would be nice if PC Elves could be (significantly) older in general, including those characters that already exist.

That said, off the top of my head, it is hard to think of race-specific titles. May be easier after I see what they're planning for some of the other races.

To start, though, it would be nice to have Celestial/City Elf, Snow Elf, Sand Elf, Wind Elf, Bone Elf, Mountain Elf, Forest Elf, River Elf.

Would also be nice if those affiliations were like moon mage sects, such that you need to "register" with a representative to designate yourself as one and then cannot change. That way, when someone goes to make their character a part of a Clan, they're forced to listen to that representative give a brief history of the clan and its culture as well as the typical behavior and appearance of its members.

- Xelten of the Mountain

clan or region of origin...

in that order of thinking, I would think Dark Elf, Grey Elf, Moon Elf...

age based.. I was thinking: Iant Edhel (old/elder elf), or Telella (young elf)..Tura (Master),


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

clans/region of origin...


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/text/ilithic.txt

Mirror of the Ilithic dictionary if anyone wants to take a stab at making some titles.

Believe drtomes.com has a copy of the Ilithic grammar book somewhere as well.

---

Rev. Reene

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo."
-- Enoch in Neal Stephenson's The Confusion

>> after all this is a role-playing game.

Just because it's a roleplaying game doesn't mean anything goes. DragonRealms' Elanthia is has a distinct genre and setting in which Moon Elves et al. are not present.

---

Rev. Reene

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo."
-- Enoch in Neal Stephenson's The Confusion

well, Moon Elves was just an idea... and in general, just says an elf that worships the moons.. shrugs


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

Actually, let me clarify. There are offshoots, such as Horse Clan being a small group of Wind Elves, but the main clans do not include moon elves, nor do any offshoots.

<<Drow elf should definately be a clan title. Lord knows there are enough people role-playing them.>>

but we don't like to acknowledge them... plus i think Drow is copywrited by TSR/Wizards of the coast


Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

Ooooh, now I want to make a drow that dual wields scimitars!

Shaunn

just because something is not written in history, does not mean it doesn't exist. Very secretive sects and such can easily avoid being in history.


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

This is an interesting one.

First and foremost, I agree with what most everyone else is saying. Making claims about your character that do not fit within the established lore, geography, and biology of the game world is almost sure to put your story on the train tracks with something GM-official somewhere down the road.

So trying to play things like vampirism, having a working set of wings, being a member of a race from another world, etc. seem to run into trouble eventually.

That said, just for discussion's sake, there is vaguely a precedent for both pushing a new race into acceptance and the potential existence of some of these reoccurring 'fake' races people try to play sometimes.

My last recollection of the official stance is that the Elanthia of DragonRealms is the far distant future of the Elanthia of Gemstone IV. There are even vague links between the games, even if the names are changed.

For instance, there are hints that Gemstone's Erithians are the ancestors of the Elotheans. The Elpalzi ape-men of Sorrow's War could easily be evolved from the Half-Krolvin ape-men of the Gemstone era. The Kaldar/Gorbesh are similar in size and shape and temperament to Gemstone's tribal Giantmen. Then there are the gnomes and halflings and dwarves and humans that match up as well.

So if it is true that the era of DragonRealms is just untold millennia removed from that of Gemstone, then black skinned elves (the Dhe'Nar) and winged people (the Aelotoi) DID once exist somewhere on the same world (it has been suggested in the past by staff that while DragonRealms' Elanthia may be in the distant future of Gemstone's Elanthia, they didn't necessarily share similar geography on the planet - so we could be talking DR as North America and GS as Africa on Earth).

About the precedent again and mentioning the Dhe'Nar: Originally, Gemstone was based on lore of another game setting and had to be scrapped/renamed in a rush when Simu's relationship with I.C.E. ended. So Kulthea became Elanthia, Shaalk became Vultite, Kelfour's Landing became Wehnimer's Landing, etc.

The pertinent part is that racial lore was changed drastically too, and vast amounts of background on the world and game setting was replaced in a hurry by a new and much less extensive set of information. Some races were changed greatly, such as the noble and charismatic High Men becoming the brutish and tribal Giantmen.

A group of players that had played for years under the old setting refused to simply drop all of their roleplay as Dyari (a type of elf in the old setting). They adapted slightly, rewriting here and there and reshaping things to fit legally into the new world of Elanthia, but they refused to abandon what they'd known entirely.

The result was the Dhe'Nar. Technically, they were all racially Dark Elves if you looked at them ingame, but they claimed to be Dhe'Nar (their rename for Dyari) and had an extensive background history and culture to back their roleplay up. It went on for years like this.

Eventually, the GMs finally officially recognized them for their years of consistent group roleplay (the Dhe'Nar included numerous players) and Dhe'Nar was added as a possible culture to choose for an elf when cultures were added.

Got to rambling there as I'm posting a word or sentence at a time from work, but I'm just sort of acknowledging the very outside possibility that a large enough group of people coloring slightly outside the lines, consistently over four or five years, could maybe eventually get recognized.

Of course, the Dhe'Nar group had a pretty valid stance to be working from and we're talking about a very committed and consistent group that played together for years and years. Still, winged Aelotoi or black skinned Dhe'Nar descendants in DragonRealms someday along the same lines?

I see what you're saying about the relationship between DR and GS, and while I wouldn't as a player be opposed to a group "Dark Elves" coming out of the woodwork but there's going to have to have a pretty large and extremely well developed back story to explain where they've been for thousands of years. And as a player and a character I'd need to see consistency in history and lore throughout all of the Dark Elves I meet before I can accept them both in game and out. Just having one walk up to either of my characters and say "I'm from a race of Dark Elves that were thought to be extinct 5,000 years ago" would be strange at best.

As you said the group of Elves in GS who played themselves as Dyari under an old system had precedence for it through lore, history and events and they also adapted to fit the changes. I think the big key word is that there was precedence and there were alot of characters playing this way together. I'd need to see something like this before actual validation.

You argue a good point, but I think to see even a collected group of players start a "dark elf clan" so to speak would be treading some thin ice. I'm not opposed to them trying, I just don't think it would fit in without some serious awkwardness.



-Player of "One of the Caels" and a Bard

Bromus asks Kobmand, "Hey, so I got a few plats on me now, you think ya can set me up with some samatak-addicted sheep like ya said last time?"

Keep in mind I was just bringing it up for discussion's sake. I think it is an interesting topic given all the history involved but, in general, am not an advocate of coloring so far outside the lines that you're constantly in a position of conflict with the GM-written standard of the day (sincerely no dig intended there at anyone, but parts of Elanthian history HAVE gotten smudged slightly and re-written here and there every five years or so).

IDONS-BUDDY
<<Distant and tenuous correlations are not a valid reason to import aspects of another game's setting into DR's Elanthia.

This is the part I think is especially interesting. A player claiming to be an Aelotoi in DragonRealms wouldn't be the same thing as a player claiming to be a drow ranger from the Zhentil Keep. A better example is a player creating an ebon skinned elf and claiming to be Dhe'Nar because they wouldn't have to wear fake wings and use ACT to support what Gemstone players can do with verbs.

The difference, in my estimation, is that if it is still true that DragonRealms is the distant future of Gemstone IV, then it is plausible within the framework of known DragonRealms/Gemstone lore (from an out-of-character standpoint, of course) that, however incredibly unlikely, races descended from the Aelotoi and Dhe'nari Elves (and whatever others perhaps) have survived the untold millennia just as the Elothean descendants of the Erithians did.

SCHWARTZH6
<<As you said the group of Elves in GS who played themselves as Dyari under an old system had precedence for it through lore, history and events and they also adapted to fit the changes. I think the big key word is that there was precedence and there were alot of characters playing this way together. I'd need to see something like this before actual validation.

I couldn't agree more. The scenario with the Dhe'Nar was literally a once-in-a-Simu-company-history kind of thing as far as I can recall off the top of my head.

The number of players involved, their history as longtime customers (from a time when GEnie prime time rates were murder), and the extensive amount of consistent lore they had adapted and created to support their roleplay made for an extraordinary and probably unlikely-to-be-repeated situation.

>>there's going to have to have a pretty large and extremely well developed back story to explain where they've been for thousands of years.

"Well, we got lost, and somebody wouldn't ask for directions."

~Kashik

I can't remember.. no wait.

Shaerek. They're in the Albarian Timeline.

Ex. The Luethras and the Shaerek form a trade relationship

Anyway. I really do love what they've done with elven type clans with Gemstone. They've done similar to humans, too IIRC. If you look at the GS page, Dark Elves are their own "race" but under Elves, they list what we would probably call Clans as "cultures"

For giggles, this is what they have:

The Elven Empire was centered on the Seven Cities, each built by and named for one of the seven noble houses. Each of these lines had risen to leadership of the Elven peoples. Even today, most Elves swear varying degrees of allegiance to one or the other.

Only five houses remain of true elves. House of Ashrim was lost at sea. House of Faendryl, once leaders among the elves, was cast out and its members eventually became dark elves.

The remaining Elven Houses are:

House of Vaalor

(The Elves of Ta'Vaalor)

Ta'Vaalor, the work of the great Aradhul Vaalor, is more a fortress than a city. The Vaalor have always produced the finest warriors of the Elven race. All Vaalor, male and female, enter the military at a young age, serving for some hundred years. Perhaps because of this, they are the haughtiest of the Elves. They had little tolerance for the lesser peoples of the lands, especially mixed-breeds. They have never suffered the Elven culture or bloodlines to be tainted by others. During the height of the Elven Empire, they chafed under the leadership of the Faendryl, believing the high seat should be theirs.

House of Nalfein

(The Elves of Ta'Nalfein)

The line of Zishra Nalfein founded Ta'Nalfein, which has always been a center of Elven politics. The Nalfein are fairly adept at everything, but they have always been the masters of stealth, whether in the field or the council chambers. Their politics are particularly ruthless, as they let little stand between themselves and their desires. The Nalfein are also apt to take up the life of a wandering merchant, traveling the world to trade in both goods and information.

House of Ardenai

(The Elves of Ta'Ardenai)

Sharyth Ardenai was the matriarch of Ta'Ardenai, and her line remained closest of the houses to their roots in the deep forests. Though they dwell in towns and cities, they retain a love for the land exceeded only by the Sylvankind. They tend to be less haughty than members of the other houses, and have less of an imperial bent. They are typically appointed as emissaries to other races. They are, however, capable warriors at need. All Ardenai grow up to revere the hunt, and few can match their bow-masters.

House of Loenthra

(The Elves of Ta'Loenthra)

Callisto Loenthra's house is one of craftsman, artists, poets and bards. Ta'Loenthra is generally acknowledged as the center of Elven culture. Though some do leave the Elven lands to ply their trades as merchants or wandering bards, most Loenthra consider the lesser races too barbaric for their company. An old Loenthra saying describes performing to an unappreciative audience as "casting pearls before Dwarves."

House of Illistim

(The Elves of Ta'Illistim)

Linsandrych Illistim, the greatest scholar in Elven history, founded Ta'Illistim. Her house has continued that tradition, and none can match the knowledge of the Illistim Masters of Lore. They are also extremely adept at the working of magical rituals, and the greatest artifacts produced by the Elves came from the House of Illistim's laboratories. Though many Illistim choose a life of seclusion and study, some others travel the world in search of knowledge, both old and new.

And this is the listing for Dark Elves Cultures

Closely related to the Elves, both of the Dark Elven cultures were permanently affected by long periods of exile in the terrible lands of Rhoska-Tor.

House of Faendryl

(The Elves of New Ta'Faendryl)

Once the leaders of the Elves, the Faendryl were cast out of the Elven Empire at the end of the Undead War, for crimes the Elves were unwilling to forgive. Ever the leaders in terms of their mastery over magic, the Faendryl had dabbled in demon summoning. All the Elven houses were appalled at the spells the Faendryl had unleashed. They expressed their outrage by exiling the Faendryl to Rhoska-Tor.

Slowly, the Faendryl began to change. Their features became even finer and sharper. Those living in the deepest caverns, those closest to the ruins of Maelshyve, found their skin darkening to a brown or black.

It was some time later that the Faendryl Elves returned from their exile and founded New Ta'Faendryl. However, they would never again be a part of the great Elven Empire.

(For more information on the Faendryl Elves, read "The Faendryl Empire".)

Dhe'nar

(The Elves of Sharath)

First splitting off from the rest of the elves before the formal creation of the Elven Empire and Elven Houses, the Dhe'nar spent generations exiled in Rhoska-Tor. Much like the Faendryl who came to Rhoska-Tor after them, their features and physical stature were forever changed.

The Dhe'nar are a race committed to perfection in all its forms; be it of the mind, the body, or the Family. The honing of a keen mind and intellect is the first goal of all Dhe'nari training, and perfection of the physical is just as important. Above all, however, is the overarching need to bring the Family to new heights, to demand the most from its members, and to insure that strength and rigor is rewarded, rather than punished.

Be advised, the Dhe'nar as a whole have taken conceit to a new level. They are viewed as self-centered egotists who have little compassion for the thoughts, rights or feelings of other cultures and races. Even the Khanshael, with whom they have developed a close relationship, are little more than slaves in their society. These views are likely to make a Dhe'nar unpopular wherever he travels in the company of persons outside of his own culture.

Dhe'nar also have very high expectations for those of their own kind. Members of their Family who fail to meet these expectations may be treated in a very harsh manner, expelled from the Family or murdered.

I know that now, when you roll up a character race that has a culture attached to it, you get to pick. It's pretty neat. But beyond that, I'm not too sure how their system works out. I'd just love to see more clan development here, and since clans are different (for example, Celestial Elves are sometimes elves who have left their orignal clan and become more "citified" it might be a big harder, I don't know.

___________________________
What happens in Elanthia, stays in Elanthia*
*...unless you accidentally gweth something really naughty, in which case it will be posted and archived on unofficial websites forever and ever.

>> Was it the Shardik or something like that? Maybe THOSE are the descendants of the Aelotoi.

The Shaerek are bird-like creatures with feathered wings, while the Aelotoi are more like insects with the sort of wings you'd expect to see on an insect. Both winged, but that's where the similarities end.

---

Rev. Reene

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo."
-- Enoch in Neal Stephenson's The Confusion

>I've never been able to quite put my finger on why or what, but there is such a genuine difference between how I recall the atmosphere of Gemstone and DragonRealms. It's such an odd thing, and I'm sure it must be a multitude of little things coming together to add up to that general feeling I have.

No, I get the same feeling. I'm not a GS player, but I love reading the bad alteration thread on one of the player sites. Looking at that, and other merchants is really what gives me my sense of "alter-reality" with Gemstone V. Dragonrealms in terms of groundedness.

I seem to recall that you played in the past or do play now. Do you have any light to shed on how cultures are played there for Elves, esp. things that may do us Elves here good, like tips or things that people have done that are particularly interesting. I mean, I know the games aren't the same but you can always take something from one game and turn it, spin it and flip it to make it fit your needs in the other.

___________________________
What happens in Elanthia, stays in Elanthia*
*...unless you accidentally gweth something really naughty, in which case it will be posted and archived on unofficial websites forever and ever.

That was a really awesome post, even if it didn't totally answer what I asked; it was insightful and interesting.

I think the parts you touched on about the Elven Clans is pretty true, too.

Thanks for the post.
___________________________
What happens in Elanthia, stays in Elanthia*
*...unless you accidentally gweth something really naughty, in which case it will be posted and archived on unofficial websites forever and ever.

hmm.. just did a little reading.. and I don't see the problem with Dark Elf... especially since the connotation of dark goes along with the clan of Bone Elf... shrugs... I'd rather be "dark" than "bone"...


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

>Slowly, the Faendryl began to change. Their features became even finer and sharper. Those living in the deepest caverns, those closest to the ruins of Maelshyve, found their skin darkening to a brown or black.

Am I the only one who caught/was surprised at this? A cross-reference to Maelshyve?

Having watched the whole debate about the Gemstone to Dragonrealms relationship several times over the years, I was left with the impression that the official stance on it was that there was no official stance it, and any similarities were purely coincidental. e.g. The fact that both worlds are "Elanthia" is owed more to a lack of imagination on David Whatley's part than a dilberate historical connection; too many unexplained inconsistencies among the similarities; etc.

That Maelshyve reference is probably the strongest piece of evidence I've seen so far that there might be a connection, which I had previously dismissed completely.

~ Celestian Kougen Aensworth, Advisor of Ilithi

"Live every day as though you will die tomorrow. Learn every day as though you will live forever." - Mahatma Ghandi