So, I figured I'd ask what you think, since I don't know your guild leaders that well. What would each of your guild leaders put on the renown scroll in their guild hall?

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

I still don't like the idea of renown scrolls, but if they are being forced upon us:

Crossing: Circle

Riverhaven: Total Armor ranks

Theren: Jousting skills (shield+polearm)

Shard: Total Magic ranks (including sorcery)

Hib: Total Lore ranks (including crafting)

Ratha: Total Weapon ranks

Kresh: Total Survival ranks (including stealth and thievery)

If we are going to have renown scrolls, I don't like the idea of adding restrictions, i.e., Magic minus sorcery, Lore minus crafting. I don't understand the reason for that. It's like saying "Total armor ranks minus light armor"

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

I love the idea of renown scrolls! Thank you! I agree with what Divy (and by extension Lennon) posted regarding skills:

>I do agree with Lennon on which skills should be included in which guildhalls' renown scrolls, although I do disagree with including thievery in the survival ranks, however not stealth.


- Felicini

I'd prefer to see the Paladin renown scrolls be more specific in which skills they take into account. I'm not a particular fan of something as generic as total ranks in each skill category. I feel each scroll should reflect that individual leader's interests, what they deem is most important to them, or in being a Paladin. All the other guilds scrolls tend to follow that pattern and I think it works well. That being said, my list and reasons are:

Crossing: Endurance*, Defending, Primary Magic, Parry, Evasion, Highest Weapon, Highest Armor. - Basically a combination of the 7 meat and potato skills every Paladin who starts at circle 1 needs to train for the rest of their carrier to advance as a Paladin. *Even though it hasn't been released yet, I think it's prudent to include our future guild-only skill. I seem to recall it possibly being changed from Endurance to something else, but can't for the life of me remember what the new proposed name is.

Riverhaven: Circles 1 - 20. - Because Remen is a guild representative, we already have Cleworth who acts as guild leader in the province, and you can't circle with him beyond 20th. I can't think of any reason why his scroll shouldn't be identical to Ievia's since he is in all reality her Paladin counterpart.

Theren: Shield, Polearms, Outdoorsmanship, Charisma. - Essentially Jousting skills. Outdoorsmanship may seem like an odd addition but considering nearly all of our titles that reflect horsemanship require some amount of Animal Lore, that was later rolled into the outdoorsmanship skill, I think it makes sense. Charisma I feel fits Cleworth's style, as per his description: "Though the expression on his face is one of utter earnestness, the light dancing in his hazel eyes indicates a subtle hint of humor".

Shard: Circle - The reason here is twofold. The first is a completely personal opinion, but The Tower of Honor has always been my favorite guildhall. I consider it to be the quintessential standard of a Paladin guildhall. Second, I honestly can't think of any specific niche for Snow.

Hib: Discipline, Wisdom, Tactics, Scholarship. - Given Darius' stern, authoritative, no nonsense demeanor it would seem likely he would favor Paladins who kept the deepest of commitment and most serious minds.

Ratha: Forging, Stamina. - I'm basing this off Eammon's famous faces card. The card simply depicts him at an anvil forging. Paladin's have a long standing reputation as armorsmiths, and I'd expect a Dwarven Paladin would certainly hold both forging and stamina as important.

Mer'Kresh: Total of all Edged weapons, Augmentation, Utility. - I swear I recall Avant having a personal collection of magnificent swords in her office, or somewhere within in the guild hall. Thus an interest in combat, specifically with edged weapons. It would also seem likely she would want to enhance those weapons with Rutilor's edge (Utility) and her own combat prowess with Righteous Wrath and Heroic Strength (Augmentation).


- Anuind Lyndon

---

When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"

I meant to write this post earlier, but I got sidetracked by work and forgot about it for a few days.

>>Lennonjon: If we are going to have renown scrolls, I don't like the idea of adding restrictions, i.e., Magic minus sorcery, Lore minus crafting. I don't understand the reason for that. It's like saying "Total armor ranks minus light armor"

My thoughts for excluding some skills are twofold. With respect to thievery, sorcery, and stealth, I don't see the guild (at least the current leadership) being willing to laud achievement in skills that are illegal, harmful to the soul, and/or dishonorable. (I would not be opposed to hiding a "fallen Paladin" scroll somewhere in the catacombs of Hibarnhvidar. See below for details.)

Second, most renown scrolls are not simply "total skillset," and no guild has all of its renown scrolls set up that way. Of the ones I currently, know, here is the breakdown:

Tracks	# of Scrolls	% of Scrolls	Examples
2+ skills in 2+ skillsets	13	26.53%	Empaths (Aesry), Moon Mages (Shard), Moon Mages (Crossing), Rangers (Crossing), Moon Mages (NTR Fortress), Traders (Shard), Barbarians (Mer'Kresh), Empaths (Riverhaven), Empaths (Hibarnhvidar), Bards (Hibarnhvidar), Clerics (Shard), Barbarians (Hibarnhvidar), Clerics (Aesry)
2+ skills in 1 skillset	9	18.37%	Clerics (Mer'Kresh), Bards (Riverhaven), Barbarians (Riverhaven), Rangers (Langenfirth), Clerics (Muspar'i), Barbarians (Steelclaw Clan), Rangers (Aesry), Empaths (Shard), Clerics (Boar Clan)
single skill	9	18.37%	Bards (Muspar'i), Barbarians (Ratha), Empaths (Crossing), Rangers (Shard), Traders (Riverhaven), Traders (Hibarnhvidar), Traders (Muspar'i), Traders (Ratha), Traders (Crossing)
entire skillset*	8	16.33%	Bards (Aesry), Clerics (Ratha), Traders (Aesry), Moon Mages (Riverhaven), Empaths (Ratha), Clerics (Riverhaven), Moon Mages (Hibarnhvidar), Barbarians (Crossing)
circle	7	14.29%	Bards (Crossing), Clerics (Crossing), Traders (Crossing), Warrior Mages (Muspar'i), Moon Mages (Throne City), Rangers (Boar Clan), Rangers (Riverhaven)
stats	2	4.08%	Bards (Ratha), Bards (Shard)
other	1	2.04%	Moon Mages (Taisgath)

*I'm not sure whether all of these track every skill in the skillset, as some guilds' scrolls are more PAFO than others'.


>>DR-Javac: So, I figured I'd ask what you think, since I don't know your guild leaders that well. What would each of your guild leaders put on the renown scroll in their guild hall?

With that in mind (and considering Anuind's excellent post), I would actually change my recommendations so that we have an assortment of different types of scrolls, some more specific and some more generalist.

Crossing: circle
Comments: Half of the top circle scrolls are in this city, and the majority of Paladins probably joined here and do the majority of their circling here. A circle-based scroll effectively tracks the "meat and potato" skills that everyone trains to advance and succeed.

Riverhaven: shield, top worn armor, defending (the skill), parry, evasion, warding
Comments: I don't really have a specific theme for Riverhaven or Remen, so I am basically using this as a "free space." I'd like to see one of our scrolls place a lot of emphasis on defensive ability, because tanking is what Paladins are supposed to be good at.

Therenborough: jousting/equestrian (for horse owners only: polearms, shield usage, plate armor, outdoorsmanship)
Comments: Therenborough has the game's best jousting facilities and a long history of hosting high-profile jousts, such as the World Jousting Tournament.

Shard: top edged weapon, melee mastery, perception, agility, reflex, charisma
Lady Snow is an Elven Paladin, and Shard is a graceful and refined place, as reflected in its architecture (including this guildhall). Her collector's card specifically refers to her sharp eyes and "razor-edged longsword."

Hibarnhvidar: asceticism/endurance (our guild-only skill), tactics, discipline, strength
Comments: Darius is the stern one, and his demeanor and clothing are described as austere.

secret scroll (hidden under the Hibarnhvidar guildhall): sorcery, thievery, stealth, locksmithing, crossbows
Comments: A while back there was a plot line about how the current Paladin code, with its lawful goodness, might not be the original code, and how the true tomb of Emille the Fist may contain information about a ritual known as the Bonding. The fake tomb of Emille is beneath the Hibarnhvidar guildhall; somewhere in the catacombs is a scroll for Paladins who may have been led astray.

Ratha: forging, top blunt weapon, stamina
Comments: Reading his trading card, and considering his race, I came to the same conclusion as Anuind, except I'd add blunt weapons, because that fits the theme of forging. (Several guilds have a crafting scroll; this is ours.)

Mer'Kresh: total magic ranks (excluding sorcery)
Comments: I'd like to see some recognition of high achievement in tertiary skills, so why not make this a "total ranks in skillset" scroll? I don't really have much to tie it to Avant except that she is an older woman and might be more inclined to draw from her inner strength.


>>Iamthewalrus: Riverhaven: Circles 1 - 20. - Because Remen is a guild representative, we already have Cleworth who acts as guild leader in the province, and you can't circle with him beyond 20th. I can't think of any reason why his scroll shouldn't be identical to Ievia's since he is in all reality her Paladin counterpart.

While I understand the rationale for this suggestion, I am reluctant to recommend an under 20 scroll simply because it is likely to go unused. The only other guild that has such a scroll is Rangers (in Riverhaven), and at most, it has one or two names on it at any given time. (Sometimes it is empty.) According to census data, Paladins are generally less numerous than Rangers, so I would not expect their under 20 scroll to do any better.

If we were going to have an under 20 scroll, I would make it an additional renown scroll in Crossing. (The majority of new Paladins are F2P, and they can't leave Zoluren without a passport.)

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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There is no way to train stealth without doing things that would tank a Paladin's soul though, so it seems weird to have it included on a renown scroll unless it was a ~taboo stuff~ sort of deal.

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Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

If were going to have one with magic, we need one with ward,util,aug over tm/debil.

Outside of tdp purposes, some paladins use like halt and shatter for pvp, however most, if not all use TR,AA,Courage,RW,SP,DA.....we have a buff list of like 12 spells, its our magical meat n potatoes. rebuke is neat due to the kneeling, but fst and smite horde are weak, our debilitation is decent, but realistically, our magical strength is our buff spells.


but that's just this guys opinion.

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Lord Cavalier Khearkrash NoRoken'Vilks, Protector of the Innocent of the Tavern Troupe Performing Order, a Rakash Paladin

maybe the one in haven could be a "really guys?" one with like appraisal,perception,performance, mechanical lore and outdoorsmanship.

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Lord Cavalier Khearkrash NoRoken'Vilks, Protector of the Innocent of the Tavern Troupe Performing Order, a Rakash Paladin

>>DR-Javac: I thought stealth is not inherently dishonorable/soul-damaging, unless you use it to attack.

You can technically hide without harming the soul, but advancing, retreating, or attacking while hidden harms the soul, rendering the stealth skill effectively useless.


>>DR-Javac: The Sorcery skill covers both Sorcery (illegal/bad) and sorcery (legal/not-so-bad), so is not inherently dishonorable either.

It might not be true Sorcery, but if your lunar spell backlashes in a justice zone, you are charged with forbidden practices. (If memory serves me, being charged with any crime results in a soul hit.) Both of those issues are why I don't see our guild publicly recognizing achievement in the sorcery skill.


>>DR-Javac: Riverhaven - Nothing, as it doesn't have a Guildleader, but a Guild Representative.

If Riverhaven doesn't work, I'd like to incorporate more of the defenses I mentioned in another scroll, perhaps replacing one of my scroll suggestions (Hibarnhvidar?) with a defense-oriented selection.


>>DR-Javac: Theren - I like the Jousting idea, so Polearms, Shield, Brig/Plate, and maybe Evasion. Does Evasion affect Jousting at all?

We know that ranks in polearm and shield affect the outcome, as do the jousting lessons for the rider and horse). Everything else is pure PAFO speculation, and I would LOVE if some GM peeked under the hood to find out. As for the worn armor, last time I tested, you forfeit if you are wearing any armor but plate on the head and torso.


>>DR-Javac: Mer'Kresh - I like the idea of some of them including some tertiary stuff, but I don't know about an entire skillset. Maybe Debilitation + TM + Charisma.

>>DR-Javac: Warding does seem like a very Paladin-y skill. What about First Aid + Warding + Charisma instead of Debilitation + TM + Charisma?

If we're only including some magic skills, I would go for the ones that are most prevalent in our spellbooks (augmentation and warding for sure). First aid is appropriate for the guild as well. (We get a soul boost for tending a non-Paladin's wounds, and we used to have a circle requirement in first aid.) Charisma, if it's not being included in another scroll, does round out the supernatural Paladin scroll.

That or maybe a scroll that tracks TM, debilitation, and bow or crossbow.

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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>As for the worn armor, last time I tested, you forfeit if you are wearing any armor but plate on the head and torso.<

Not quite accurate.

You only jump off your horse if the opponent's pass was going to hit you in the head or torso. I rarely wear plate on my head (as it would mean changing out of my normal armor). I've only done so when I thought I was going to lose.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

>>you are 100% potentially endangering the planes by weakening the planar laws every time you cast air bubble. So it's not very paladinly.

This assumes that Paladins shouldn't create dangerous situations or cause any harm.

Paladins as a guild have very particular/odd rules over what can/can't be done and I don't think "don't be an arcane world-breaker" is one of them, for whatever reason.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

<<Crossing - Circle
Seems fitting
<<Riverhaven - Nothing, as it doesn't have a Guildleader, but a Guild Representative.
Could see it having a roster or not guess it doesn't matter
<<Theren - I like the Jousting idea, so Polearms, Shield, Brig/Plate, and maybe Evasion. Does Evasion affect Jousting at all?
I guess that is what Theren has become not sure how it is Paladinish. I guess it would encompass polearm, shield, and plate armor, and perhaps strength and stamina.
<<Shard - I like Top Edged and Perception. Maybe add in Agility + Wisdom.
I think it should be specific to top melee weapon + perception and agil and wisdom. Not every paladin uses edged and I see more and more picking up other melee weapons such as polearm and blunts as main weapons.
<<Ratha - I also had the idea of Forging, but was thinking Forging + Scholarship. Maybe throw in Strength and Intelligence.
Sounds good
<<Hib - Darius is probably the guild leader with the most Lore behind him, and I agree he seems pretty strict. Endurance + Tactics + Discipline seems appropriate, IMO.
He is definitely the most strict disc + tactics for sure. I would say defending could be put in there as well. Endurance is okay as well.
<<Mer'Kresh - I like the idea of some of them including some tertiary stuff, but I don't know about an entire skillset. Maybe Debilitation + TM + Charisma.
I think the entire magic skillset would be good as most of the skills are relevent to our spells. The only one that is kindof a gray area is sorcery and I could see it both ways.

>I guess that is what Theren has become not sure how it is Paladinish. I guess it would encompass polearm, shield, and plate armor, and perhaps strength and stamina.<

Jousting has always been associated with Paladins. Hence the reason we teach others how to Joust. Why Theren? The Barony has a history of being led by Paladins. Further Baron Gyfford is a Paladin who has been known to host jousting tournaments as well as to tilt in them. This renown scroll seems the most obvious to me. Javac just needs to dig a little and find out exactly what skills/stats play a role here ;)

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

>>Agree to disagree.

For what its worth, Paladins teach everyone how to fight on horses, joust on horses, and mount horses in combat. For all intents and purposes, DR views Paladins as jousty-types who enjoy horse-related combat.

As an aside, since there's no "horse" skill for jousting related things, I'd be amused as heck if the Theren scroll also factored in your war horse's "level", whatever that is, because I am a jerk.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

So just found out... I was trying to do things that aren't possible (and don't make much sense). First, mixing skills and stats doesn't make much sense. So that's just right out. Second, "highest melee weapon" isn't an option, but going with "highest weapon" is close enough, I think.

That said, here's what I have now:
Crossing - Circle
Riverhaven - Worn armors
Theren - Polearms/Shield
Shard - Highest Weapon/Perception
Ratha - Forging/Scholarship
Hib - Discipline/Charisma
Mer'kresh - Warding/First Aid

If that all sounds relatively sane, I'll stick them out later this week.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

>>DR-Javac: Mer'kresh - Warding/First Aid

Would you be opposed to adding augmentation to that scroll? After all, 9/27 of our spells (Heroic Strength, Courage, Divine Guidance, Sentinel's Resolve, Righteous Wrath, Marshal Order, Clarity, Truffenyi's Rally, and Crusader's Challenge) require the augmentation skill, whereas only 3/27 (Aspirant's Aegis, Soldier's Prayer, and Holy Warrior) require the warding skill.

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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>Would you be opposed to adding augmentation to that scroll? After all, 9/27 of our spells (Heroic Strength, Courage, Divine Guidance, Sentinel's Resolve, Righteous Wrath, Marshal Order, Clarity, Truffenyi's Rally, and Crusader's Challenge) require the augmentation skill, whereas only 3/27 (Aspirant's Aegis, Soldier's Prayer, and Holy Warrior) require the warding skill.<

Wholeheartedly agree.

I would really like to see Defending and Tactics reflected in these. Especially Defending. It's kind of our thing.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

>Tactics reflected in these.

Who would be the tactician of the Guild Leaders? Snow? Make her Highest Weapon + Perception + Tactics?

>Especially Defending. It's kind of our thing.

Am I missing something? Defending as a skill doesn't do anything extra special for Paladins, as far as I'm aware. I could easily add it to Riverhaven, making it Worn Armors + Defending, though.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

>>Who would be the tactician of the Guild Leaders? Snow? Make her Highest Weapon + Perception + Tactics?

I think that sounds like a great addition to Snow's scroll, and would round it out perfectly. Not to instigate a conflict on opinions, however, I think role play and lore wise Cleworth would be a fantastic candidate for Tactics as well, but I don't advocate including it to his scroll as the jousting theme suits perfectly well without any addition.

>>Am I missing something? Defending as a skill doesn't do anything extra special for Paladins, as far as I'm aware. I could easily add it to Riverhaven, making it Worn Armors + Defending, though.

Another excellent addition, and Riverhaven's scroll would suit it the best I expect. Adding Defending all but rounds out all of our primary skill set with exception to Endurance. Without knowing when this skill will be released, or if it will still be called Endurance when it is for that matter, I can appreciate not putting a strong priority on adding it to any scroll at the moment. There is also a precedent for updating scrolls once guild exclusive abilities are released, and I'd presume it can certainly be addressed at that time if it becomes a hot topic.

Thanks so much again, Javac!

- Anuind Lyndon

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When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"

These are out in all instances. The final version looks like this:

Crossing - Circle
Riverhaven - Worn armors + Defending
Theren - Polearms/Shield
Shard - Highest Weapon/Perception/Tactics
Ratha - Forging/Scholarship
Hib - Discipline/Charisma
Mer'kresh - Augmentation/Warding/First Aid

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.