I actually do think the Paladin Reqs are a bit light, when compared with other guilds. Not that anyone's opinion on any game-wide subject actually matters to anyone at Simu. I'll give mine anyway though:
For 100th Paladins should require 400 in a second armor and 320+ in a third. 320 Multi Opponent rather than 230. I like the Parry Req right where it is. I doubt the two added armor Reqs would inconvenience people much at all, since, I would imagine, most Paladins train many armors. The Multi Opponent Req would be kind of rough in comparison with any guild besides Barbarians, but I guarantee Paladins would find it useful in situations where they are truly needed.
XAXOR
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 07:47 AM CDT
I'm voting no on another armor req. It's boring enough playing "sit as peccaries bounce of you" as it is.
Maybe if we could actually use multiple armors for something other than TDPs, I'd be for it, but right now there's really no reason for a Paladin to train anything but HP unless for RP reasons or forging. At least multi-weapon requirements can allow weapons that make sense in difference situations (a missile weapon vs a melee, or a pole range, or brawling, or whatever).
Right now there's no "well this is clearly a wear LC situation" for Paladins.
Maybe if we could actually use multiple armors for something other than TDPs, I'd be for it, but right now there's really no reason for a Paladin to train anything but HP unless for RP reasons or forging. At least multi-weapon requirements can allow weapons that make sense in difference situations (a missile weapon vs a melee, or a pole range, or brawling, or whatever).
Right now there's no "well this is clearly a wear LC situation" for Paladins.
TFPALADIN
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 09:45 AM CDT
I agree with the multi req boost.
Thanks
Lord Paragon of TF
Thanks
Lord Paragon of TF
TEVESHSZAT
PRAXIS
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 12:12 PM CDT
Multi is broken to learn and has very little benefit for the average gamer. This idea of increasing the time I stand around in combat (which I have to do to learn armor/shield) to gain nothing is poorly thought out.
TFPALADIN
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 01:09 PM CDT
I just think that paladins should have more multi at 100th than barbs. We are supposed to be the masters of defense I thought. Oh well.
DRLIGHT
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 01:25 PM CDT
>>I just think that paladins should have more multi at 100th than barbs. We are supposed to be the masters of defense I thought
And yet evasion, parry, and multi are all in non-primary skill categories for us. I believe we were tossed into the 'master of armor' category if you want to put a label on us.
I do agree we should probably have more multi, but unless it gets easier to learn and is more meaningful to have there is no realy point in making it a higher req besides slowing down people from lvling.
And yet evasion, parry, and multi are all in non-primary skill categories for us. I believe we were tossed into the 'master of armor' category if you want to put a label on us.
I do agree we should probably have more multi, but unless it gets easier to learn and is more meaningful to have there is no realy point in making it a higher req besides slowing down people from lvling.
NEELD
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 02:32 PM CDT
<<And yet evasion, parry, and multi are all in non-primary skill categories for us.>>
Master of dents...not defense. You missed the memo. By the way, the above irks me to no end. Why not spread offense around to all catagories? I mean, the rational behind spreading evasion, parry and multi was to allow everyone an opportunity to have a "defense".
Grrrr...sore issue with me.
Madigan
Master of dents...not defense. You missed the memo. By the way, the above irks me to no end. Why not spread offense around to all catagories? I mean, the rational behind spreading evasion, parry and multi was to allow everyone an opportunity to have a "defense".
Grrrr...sore issue with me.
Madigan
PRAXIS
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 03:53 PM CDT
>We are supposed to be the masters of defense I thought.
I don't like this label for a few reasons. If we were masters of defense we would have more than one defense skill in our primary skillset. I don't include armor because its paper for playability. Yes, it'll absorb blah blah blah, but in the long run its not a viable defense.
We have some spells that help defense, a few abilities to help defense (mostly help others) and they work quite well, but toe to toe with a barb, the barb likely has a better overall defense because of skillset. I'm not going down the GvG route, just saying that we are not 'masters of defense' based on MY experiences with playing different guilds.
I don't think requiring more multi will make us any better except for the simple fact that multi will become that skill that slows down circling and stat gain making us quite worse. Multi is just rude to train, I stand (literally) in dodge or parry with 2 or 3 block stopped just to work armors as it is and I still don't get enough multi to keep up. I can't imagine having to do that even more.
How to make Paladins meet that 'master of defense' label? Move evasion (1st choice) or parry (regretful 2nd choice) into our primary skillset. Yeah, I know ... it'll never happen. Perhaps allow Paladins a wat to gain some MELEE benefits like fast advance tricks (decreased phantom RT to melee), insta-melee tricks/spells (holy kick in the ass! hehe) or some other bullcrappery.
All this stuff really would do is enhance Paladins at melee, and we can all agree that melee is a stupid way to fight the way combat is presently setup.
I don't like this label for a few reasons. If we were masters of defense we would have more than one defense skill in our primary skillset. I don't include armor because its paper for playability. Yes, it'll absorb blah blah blah, but in the long run its not a viable defense.
We have some spells that help defense, a few abilities to help defense (mostly help others) and they work quite well, but toe to toe with a barb, the barb likely has a better overall defense because of skillset. I'm not going down the GvG route, just saying that we are not 'masters of defense' based on MY experiences with playing different guilds.
I don't think requiring more multi will make us any better except for the simple fact that multi will become that skill that slows down circling and stat gain making us quite worse. Multi is just rude to train, I stand (literally) in dodge or parry with 2 or 3 block stopped just to work armors as it is and I still don't get enough multi to keep up. I can't imagine having to do that even more.
How to make Paladins meet that 'master of defense' label? Move evasion (1st choice) or parry (regretful 2nd choice) into our primary skillset. Yeah, I know ... it'll never happen. Perhaps allow Paladins a wat to gain some MELEE benefits like fast advance tricks (decreased phantom RT to melee), insta-melee tricks/spells (holy kick in the ass! hehe) or some other bullcrappery.
All this stuff really would do is enhance Paladins at melee, and we can all agree that melee is a stupid way to fight the way combat is presently setup.
PONCHI
Re: Defenses
10/10/2006 05:27 PM CDT
Honestly multi as a weapon skill has always bothered me. To me it's always felt like a defensive skill and something we should be better than most any other Guild at. If Multi were a prime skill I'd be all down with needing more Multi as a skill set, in theory it sounds fine.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
XAXOR
Re: Defenses
10/12/2006 10:42 AM CDT
<<I'm voting no on another armor req. It's boring enough playing "sit as peccaries bounce of you" as it is.
<<If Multi were a prime skill I'd be all down with needing more Multi as a skill set, in theory it sounds fine.
Guess what, most guilds require tons more overall primary ranks than us and more high secondary skills too. A Paladin could get to 100th gaining about 2000-3000 fewer TDPs from ranks than Rangers, Barbs, any Magic Prime guild, and Empaths.
This is simply a game balance issue. Thieves and Paladins have min Reqs that are relatively pathetic compared to the power bestowed by their circle related powers.
<<Maybe if we could actually use multiple armors for something other than TDPs, I'd be for it, but right now there's really no reason for a Paladin to train anything but HP unless for RP reasons or forging.
Every guild has requirements that logically don't meet the standard you have stated here. I know my Ranger is finding those 300+ ranks of foraging useful all the time, and having 400 Swimming and Climbing saves my life every day. I'm sure Bards love having to train 4 instruments over 400 ranks...Barbs probably love being required to get two primary skills higher than one primary skill of any other guild...Everyone has useless Reqs, it builds character (I'm not kidding). Suck it up.
<<Multi is broken to learn and has very little benefit for the average gamer. This idea of increasing the time I stand around in combat (which I have to do to learn armor/shield) to gain nothing is poorly thought out.
You're required to spend less time standing around doing stuff you don't want to than all other guilds.
<<I'm voting no on another armor req. It's boring enough playing "sit as peccaries bounce of you" as it is.
Wear a shield, an HP chest piece, and LC/HC/LP/W/E. If you're at all competent, by the time you have the primary armor for 100th, you'll have the secondary and tertiary as well.
<<Move evasion (1st choice) or parry (regretful 2nd choice) into our primary skillset.
I hope this is a joke. Armor primary is the biggest gift ever. You can keep 5 primary skills locked at all times, even post wall, if you have bothered to train your multi. The potential TDP gain from that is crazy. No other guild can do anything like that, except maybe a backtraining barb. But even then I doubt it.
<<How to make Paladins meet that 'master of defense' label?
If Paladins had harder Reqs there wouldn't be so many high level Paladins with sad overall skills, and then more people would understand just how powerful Paladins can be. When the evasion/reflex changes roll in this is going to be even more true.
<<All this stuff really would do is enhance Paladins at melee, and we can all agree that melee is a stupid way to fight the way combat is presently setup.
I recommend reading the Combat, Armor, and Weapons boards. Melee is about to become a much more attractive way to fight. Not that it shouldn't be already if you have enough shield.
<<If Multi were a prime skill I'd be all down with needing more Multi as a skill set, in theory it sounds fine.
Guess what, most guilds require tons more overall primary ranks than us and more high secondary skills too. A Paladin could get to 100th gaining about 2000-3000 fewer TDPs from ranks than Rangers, Barbs, any Magic Prime guild, and Empaths.
This is simply a game balance issue. Thieves and Paladins have min Reqs that are relatively pathetic compared to the power bestowed by their circle related powers.
<<Maybe if we could actually use multiple armors for something other than TDPs, I'd be for it, but right now there's really no reason for a Paladin to train anything but HP unless for RP reasons or forging.
Every guild has requirements that logically don't meet the standard you have stated here. I know my Ranger is finding those 300+ ranks of foraging useful all the time, and having 400 Swimming and Climbing saves my life every day. I'm sure Bards love having to train 4 instruments over 400 ranks...Barbs probably love being required to get two primary skills higher than one primary skill of any other guild...Everyone has useless Reqs, it builds character (I'm not kidding). Suck it up.
<<Multi is broken to learn and has very little benefit for the average gamer. This idea of increasing the time I stand around in combat (which I have to do to learn armor/shield) to gain nothing is poorly thought out.
You're required to spend less time standing around doing stuff you don't want to than all other guilds.
<<I'm voting no on another armor req. It's boring enough playing "sit as peccaries bounce of you" as it is.
Wear a shield, an HP chest piece, and LC/HC/LP/W/E. If you're at all competent, by the time you have the primary armor for 100th, you'll have the secondary and tertiary as well.
<<Move evasion (1st choice) or parry (regretful 2nd choice) into our primary skillset.
I hope this is a joke. Armor primary is the biggest gift ever. You can keep 5 primary skills locked at all times, even post wall, if you have bothered to train your multi. The potential TDP gain from that is crazy. No other guild can do anything like that, except maybe a backtraining barb. But even then I doubt it.
<<How to make Paladins meet that 'master of defense' label?
If Paladins had harder Reqs there wouldn't be so many high level Paladins with sad overall skills, and then more people would understand just how powerful Paladins can be. When the evasion/reflex changes roll in this is going to be even more true.
<<All this stuff really would do is enhance Paladins at melee, and we can all agree that melee is a stupid way to fight the way combat is presently setup.
I recommend reading the Combat, Armor, and Weapons boards. Melee is about to become a much more attractive way to fight. Not that it shouldn't be already if you have enough shield.
PRAXIS
Re: Defenses
10/12/2006 11:16 AM CDT
<<Multi is broken to learn and has very little benefit for the average gamer. This idea of increasing the time I stand around in combat (which I have to do to learn armor/shield) to gain nothing is poorly thought out.
>You're required to spend less time standing around doing stuff you don't want to than all other guilds.
You misunderstand. I mean literally standing, not moving, not attacking, nothing. Standing there. Snore snore, yay I have 6 skills locked or near. Now if my multi, which doesn't really suck, isn't moving fast enough towards an increased req AS IT IS ... I will spend far more time doing nothing to gain extra extra ranks.
>Armor primary is the biggest gift ever.
You're crazy. Armor is nearly useless once other defenses fail. This whole game balance thing is just that; playability. LE does not SLICE through HP ever. LE can probably slice through tinfoil, which is about what armor is. I can deal with it, but it sure smells bad.
Yes, I can lock 10+ skills in combat (6 armor, evasion, parry, multi, and a few weapons) but if I have to get more multi than whats already required, the time spent will only increase my tinfoil armor ranks and I'll forever be waiting on multi to circle. Not fun.
Another thing, Armor prime on a wall rank is absolutely the most frustrating mind state mess on the planet. You have tert and secondary skills that slow down from fluid+, and have to play the lock, leave combat, drain, rinse/repeat game. Fun fun not.
Yes, there are the armor feats of primary, they rock. Factor in the stealth and survival hinderances, and we lose ground. Guess what, more armor skill doesn't effect stealth or survival, only maneuvering hinderance. At least thats what my last 200 ranks of armor since the stealth, climb and swim hinderance changes have shown me.
>If Paladins had harder Reqs there wouldn't be so many high level Paladins with sad overall skills,
All min req character suck. This is not limited to Paladins. Moot point. If combat was actually geared more towards melee, and less towards the almighty bow and TM, things would be different.
>Melee is about to become a much more attractive way to fight
Not a chance. Ok, for training purposes, yes melee will get a nice boost, which will help Paladins train and survive easier. I get to survive longer while I stand around. Yay not.
How many tourneys do you see melee? None. Melee fighters are long dead before they hit pole from TM and ranged attacks.
How many invasion creatures get fought at melee? Some. Usually TM and ranged attacks take over there as well. I stopped bothering in invasions because I advance, hit pole and see: "You stop advancing because XXX is already dead.". Fun fun not.
How many invasion creatures use TM, AoE, special moves, and ranged attacks? Quite a few. Why? They need to kill the ranged and TM users faster so the invasions last more than 5 minutes.
To sum up; yes melee should be better in the near future, but it will not cause a great shift in the way many people play the game. Increasing the multi req to support the melee changes will only slow down Paladin circling, except for those weak-ass min req characters.
End result: We don't need any more multi required. It will only serve to boost the base armor we'd get, so if multi goes up, why not just add more armor req? Not that I want to see more armor either --- I stand around enough as it is.
>You're required to spend less time standing around doing stuff you don't want to than all other guilds.
You misunderstand. I mean literally standing, not moving, not attacking, nothing. Standing there. Snore snore, yay I have 6 skills locked or near. Now if my multi, which doesn't really suck, isn't moving fast enough towards an increased req AS IT IS ... I will spend far more time doing nothing to gain extra extra ranks.
>Armor primary is the biggest gift ever.
You're crazy. Armor is nearly useless once other defenses fail. This whole game balance thing is just that; playability. LE does not SLICE through HP ever. LE can probably slice through tinfoil, which is about what armor is. I can deal with it, but it sure smells bad.
Yes, I can lock 10+ skills in combat (6 armor, evasion, parry, multi, and a few weapons) but if I have to get more multi than whats already required, the time spent will only increase my tinfoil armor ranks and I'll forever be waiting on multi to circle. Not fun.
Another thing, Armor prime on a wall rank is absolutely the most frustrating mind state mess on the planet. You have tert and secondary skills that slow down from fluid+, and have to play the lock, leave combat, drain, rinse/repeat game. Fun fun not.
Yes, there are the armor feats of primary, they rock. Factor in the stealth and survival hinderances, and we lose ground. Guess what, more armor skill doesn't effect stealth or survival, only maneuvering hinderance. At least thats what my last 200 ranks of armor since the stealth, climb and swim hinderance changes have shown me.
>If Paladins had harder Reqs there wouldn't be so many high level Paladins with sad overall skills,
All min req character suck. This is not limited to Paladins. Moot point. If combat was actually geared more towards melee, and less towards the almighty bow and TM, things would be different.
>Melee is about to become a much more attractive way to fight
Not a chance. Ok, for training purposes, yes melee will get a nice boost, which will help Paladins train and survive easier. I get to survive longer while I stand around. Yay not.
How many tourneys do you see melee? None. Melee fighters are long dead before they hit pole from TM and ranged attacks.
How many invasion creatures get fought at melee? Some. Usually TM and ranged attacks take over there as well. I stopped bothering in invasions because I advance, hit pole and see: "You stop advancing because XXX is already dead.". Fun fun not.
How many invasion creatures use TM, AoE, special moves, and ranged attacks? Quite a few. Why? They need to kill the ranged and TM users faster so the invasions last more than 5 minutes.
To sum up; yes melee should be better in the near future, but it will not cause a great shift in the way many people play the game. Increasing the multi req to support the melee changes will only slow down Paladin circling, except for those weak-ass min req characters.
End result: We don't need any more multi required. It will only serve to boost the base armor we'd get, so if multi goes up, why not just add more armor req? Not that I want to see more armor either --- I stand around enough as it is.
ZONKAR
Re: Defenses
10/12/2006 11:46 AM CDT
>Another thing, Armor prime on a wall rank is absolutely the most frustrating mind state mess on the planet. You have tert and secondary skills that slow down from fluid+, and have to play the lock, leave combat, drain, rinse/repeat game. Fun fun not.
Other guilds have the opposite problem. I really don't think skills that are passively learned should mess up your mind. I'm sure others would agree.
Other guilds have the opposite problem. I really don't think skills that are passively learned should mess up your mind. I'm sure others would agree.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Defenses
10/12/2006 02:46 PM CDT
One thing I would change would be to ditch the second armor requirements and roll it into a shield requirement which is closer to the primary armor requirement.
I am --- Navak
I am --- Navak
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Defenses
10/13/2006 07:16 AM CDT
>>Guess what, most guilds require tons more overall primary ranks than us and more high secondary skills too. A Paladin could get to 100th gaining about 2000-3000 fewer TDPs from ranks than Rangers, Barbs, any Magic Prime guild, and Empaths.
...so?
>>This is simply a game balance issue.
no it's not.
>>Every guild has requirements that logically don't meet the standard you have stated here. I know my Ranger is finding those 300+ ranks of foraging useful all the time, and having 400 Swimming and Climbing saves my life every day. I'm sure Bards love having to train 4 instruments over 400 ranks...Barbs probably love being required to get two primary skills higher than one primary skill of any other guild...Everyone has useless Reqs, it builds character (I'm not kidding). Suck it up.
Suck what up? It seems your complaint/request is now "these guilds have reqs that are boring! LETS GIVE PALADINS SOME TOO!"
Which kills the whole arguement.
...so?
>>This is simply a game balance issue.
no it's not.
>>Every guild has requirements that logically don't meet the standard you have stated here. I know my Ranger is finding those 300+ ranks of foraging useful all the time, and having 400 Swimming and Climbing saves my life every day. I'm sure Bards love having to train 4 instruments over 400 ranks...Barbs probably love being required to get two primary skills higher than one primary skill of any other guild...Everyone has useless Reqs, it builds character (I'm not kidding). Suck it up.
Suck what up? It seems your complaint/request is now "these guilds have reqs that are boring! LETS GIVE PALADINS SOME TOO!"
Which kills the whole arguement.
ROTHJ
Re: Defenses
10/14/2006 10:44 AM CDT
I'd just like to point out that Dragonrealms was designed to be a game and, therefore, enjoyable.
It seems some GMs forgot about this when they hardcoded unenjoyable reqs for certain Guilds. This does not mean that those Guilds that were not worked over by an unsympathetic GM should be made less fun. Rather, it means we should be happy that we never had a Treveri or his ilk.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
It seems some GMs forgot about this when they hardcoded unenjoyable reqs for certain Guilds. This does not mean that those Guilds that were not worked over by an unsympathetic GM should be made less fun. Rather, it means we should be happy that we never had a Treveri or his ilk.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
